COVID-19 RESOURCES
LIT CAMS (200 Free Tokens)ADULT TOYSVOD MOVIES

submissiveness, could it be genetic?

redslady said:
After reading Eastern Sun’s thread “The marks of a slave” I finally understand my own mother. She was defiantly my father’s slave. I have a submissive nature and with talking to my sister, who is also a sub, I started to wonder could submissiveness be genetic? Has anyone else notices this trend within their own families? Or is it a matter of nature verses nurture?
Click to expand...

I would say that it is more than genetic, it is part of the biology of most animals:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=353585

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=12662239&postcount=19
 
Sir Victor said:
I would say that it is more than genetic, it is part of the biology of most animals:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=353585

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=12662239&postcount=19
Click to expand...

Yes, it pretty much is the genetic inclination of most humans to live in largely sex-segregated groups where the 23d wife may only have to deal with her husband a week out of the year and has to fight her way up the female ladder.

Some people do live like this. Everyone here has a computer and extra fat stores, likely.

MOST people in the western world think you and I are insane. MOST women like men to have the initiative in bed but the minute you say "slave" you're off the shark. Let's not lose sight of that bit of reality, constructed or not.
 
Last edited:
Netzach said:
Yes, it pretty much is the genetic inclination of most humans to live in largely sex-segregated groups where the 23d wife may only have to deal with her husband a week out of the year and has to fight her way up the female ladder.

Some people do live like this. Everyone here has a computer and extra fat stores, likely.

MOST people in the western world think you and I are insane. MOST women like men to have the initiative in bed but the minute you say "slave" you're off the shark. Let's not lose sight of that bit of reality, constructed or not.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think we are agreeing perhaps you're putting more empasis on certain aspects of our animal instincts. I wonder if they'd really think we are insane, or if they just will not admit it due to social pressure.

Interesting that this show was so popular in a cute, fun sort of way. I'm sure I know what every breathing boy, man, and PYL would have her do to please them:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=602997
 
Sir Victor said:
Yes, I think we are agreeing perhaps you're putting more empasis on certain aspects of our animal instincts. I wonder if they'd really think we are insane, or if they just will not admit it due to social pressure.

Interesting that this show was so popular in a cute, fun sort of way. I'm sure I know what every breathing boy, man, and PYL would have her do to please them:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=602997
Click to expand...

I only liked that show when her "evil twin" was in it.

I actually disagree with you to some extent. I think that it's kind of pointless to look at these pure biological arguments in a world that is SO heavily mediated by technology and social change, and your explanation doesn't do justice to outliers. Why are so many men turned on by women taking the initiative in bed, and don't tell me most aren't. My point is that we're so far from H-G reality not to mention bonobo or vervet reality that we ought to spend more time drawing conclusions about us from us.

(also some HG cultures are about as egalitarian as they come, they don't all look alike, and the San no longer live the way they did in the sixties.)


It's not like everyone off the bell curve is somehow in conflict with these biological mandates, but may play a role in the health of the whole. I mean I don't consider myself some kind of biological freak because I don't love it when my new date grabs my wrists and does some kind of stare down or gets bossy - I'm more likely to knee him than get excited. And I've noticed that most men also like it if I grab and hold their wrists just *fine.*
 
Last edited:
I will absolutely not hesitate to say that most women are excited by displays of male sexual initiative and power, sexually, in the world I move in.

As to why, I think it's because there's a disconnect. The objects of desire are these postfeminist passive pale indie rock boys, and then the minute you capture one, what exactly do you expect? So there's a large dissatisfaction level. We're still getting the message that masculinity should be like this when in fact it's like that - or like nothing.

Nobody bothered to offer any alternatives to being an asshole and a jock as male ideals. They didn't build up the actual "real man" parts of being a real man, just dismantled those with the sham ones.

But it's not feminism that ruined men, it's their own buy-in and the degree to which they buy into a reactionary superficial femininity instead of FIXING it.
 
Sir Victor said:
Interesting that this show was so popular in a cute, fun sort of way. I'm sure I know what every breathing boy, man, and PYL would have her do to please them:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=602997
Click to expand...
Manipulative, self-absorbed, faux-subservient Jeannie? The actress is adorable, but the character is totally unappealing to me.

I agree that the popularity of the show was "interesting," but I don't think it's reflective of male need to grasp control, and female need to relinquish it. In fact, I'd say the show reflects just the opposite.
 
Netzach said:
I only liked that show when her "evil twin" was in it.

I actually disagree with you to some extent. I think that it's kind of pointless to look at these pure biological arguments in a world that is SO heavily mediated by technology and social change, and your explanation doesn't do justice to outliers. Why are so many men turned on by women taking the initiative in bed, and don't tell me most aren't. My point is that we're so far from H-G reality not to mention bonobo or vervet reality that we ought to spend more time drawing conclusions about us from us.

(also some HG cultures are about as egalitarian as they come, they don't all look alike, and the San no longer live the way they did in the sixties.)


It's not like everyone off the bell curve is somehow in conflict with these biological mandates, but may play a role in the health of the whole. I mean I don't consider myself some kind of biological freak because I don't love it when my new date grabs my wrists and does some kind of stare down or gets bossy - I'm more likely to knee him than get excited. And I've noticed that most men also like it if I grab and hold their wrists just *fine.*
Click to expand...

Seems to me that yes these instinctual urges are mediated by technology and social change, but social change is just that change and has it ever gone in the right direction? Our society is in a pathtic state as it stands now, so I would say just because there is change doesn't suggest that it is correct or good. There is also an instinct to fit and be loved and this is why societal conditioning can be so strong, how people fall into cults so easily.

Woman taking initiative in bed? Just being a good sub providing pleasure from my perspective - not to be taken too seriously.

I do think that there is an urge to switch in many, as if each side needs to be fed from time to time, or a balance needs to be maintained.

So when you knee the guy I suppose it's not his turn to be Dominant? I'll try to remember that, LOL!
 
JMohegan said:
Manipulative, self-absorbed, faux-subservient Jeannie? The actress is adorable, but the character is totally unappealing to me.

I agree that the popularity of the show was "interesting," but I don't think it's reflective of male need to grasp control, and female need to relinquish it. In fact, I'd say the show reflects just the opposite.
Click to expand...

You didn't expect it to be taken seriously, did you? It is a play on the theme as I see it - a tease of what might be if you made her a good girl. But the hot babe begging to be commanded was cute. :devil:
 
Last edited:
Sir Victor said:
You didn't expect it to be taken seriously, did you? It is a play on the theme as I see it - a tease of what might be if you made her a good girl. But the hot babe begging to be commanded was cute. :devil:
Click to expand...
The show was an inane sitcom, clearly! But it was not a "tease" for me.

That hot babe "begging to be commanded" is the archetype of sooooo many females. They want a guy who'll take charge - as long as what he's doing fits the time, place, manner, and mode of the female's choosing. When he veers from that path, her true colors show.

The Jeannie character is emblematic of a female personality type in which I personally have no interest. Manipulative, bratty, disingenuous. Not relationship material - or even wank material - for me.
 
Netzach said:
But it's not feminism that ruined men, it's their own buy-in and the degree to which they buy into a reactionary superficial femininity instead of FIXING it.
Click to expand...

Seems to me that men or in fact all of us are primarily victims of how our society has evolved. I'm not sure if I'm reading your "FIXING it" correctly, how do you suggest this should happen and what is the fix?
 
JMohegan said:
The show was an inane sitcom, clearly! But it was not a "tease" for me.

That hot babe "begging to be commanded" is the archetype of sooooo many females. They want a guy who'll take charge - as long as what he's doing fits the time, place, manner, and mode of the female's choosing. When he veers from that path, her true colors show.

The Jeannie character is emblematic of a female personality type in which I personally have no interest. Manipulative, bratty, disingenuous. Not relationship material - or even wank material - for me.
Click to expand...

I take a completely different perspective, she begged him to take charge and command her, yet he didn't. I see the issue with him not her, and I think it was deliberate in the show, obviously, since how could they show him Domming her. She was manipulative to try to get him to take charge, or to serve him as best she could. We don't know what she would have done if he did take charge. Isn't the obvious to tell her to get on her knees and ..... :devil:

I would disagree that her character is the archetype of soooo many females, most do not even bother to ask the guy to take charge, many are just plain brats in today society. Their thinking is give me what I want, make me happy, make me laugh, and they are often rude.

Edit: Not directed at any of the lovely Lit ladies: "Their thinking is give me what I want, make me happy, make me laugh, and they are often rude."
 
Last edited:
Sir Victor said:
Woman taking initiative in bed? Just being a good sub providing pleasure from my perspective - not to be taken too seriously.
Click to expand...


When all you have is a hammer everything must look like a nail.

I don't especially feel like a VICTIM of changes that allow me to own property, vote, maintain my own health directives or be educated, but go ahead, argue that if you want.
 
Sir Victor said:
Seems to me that yes these instinctual urges are mediated by technology and social change, but social change is just that change and has it ever gone in the right direction?
Click to expand...

Yes, usually.

Sorry white dude, you're not in the majority.
 
Netzach said:
When all you have is a hammer everything must look like a nail.

I don't especially feel like a VICTIM of changes that allow me to own property, vote, maintain my own health directives or be educated, but go ahead, argue that if you want.
Click to expand...

Seems YOU spoke of societal change in men's masculinity, not property ownership, voting rights etc. So WTF are you talking about here, change direction often?
 
Netzach said:
Yes, usually.

Sorry white dude, you're not in the majority.
Click to expand...

Yes strictly speaking I am caucasian, but some call me a darky, LOL!
Did I strike a nerve? Didn't intend to or to offend in any way.
Did I even say I was in any sort of majority, don't think so?
I'm going to drop this for now .....
 
Sir Victor said:
Yes strictly speaking I am caucasian, but some call me a darky, LOL!
Did I strike a nerve? Didn't intend to or to offend in any way.
Did I even say I was in any sort of majority, don't think so?
I'm going to drop this for now .....
Click to expand...

The point you seem to be making is that female submission is the biological order of the day and how sad it is that we've gotten off course from this pure biological mandate.

Our social changes have brought opportunities to people without power, who have often been told they should not have power because it's not "natural" for them to have power. That their biology makes it better for them to be without power.

I think that the prior order was so dependent on female subservience that it collapsed the minute anything else started to happen. Had the roles appropriate to boys been less dysfunctional in how to relate to female humans there might be less confusion in the upset.
 
Last edited:
Sir Victor said:
I would disagree that her character is the archetype of soooo many females, most do not even bother to ask the guy to take charge, many are just plain brats in today society. Their thinking is give me what I want, make me happy, make me laugh, and they are often rude.
Click to expand...
You make them sound like soooo many male Doms.

I don't have a problem with the straightforward. Rude is rarely helpful, but forthright is a quality I respect.
 
Netzach said:
The point you seem to be making is that female submission is the biological order of the day and how sad it is that we've gotten off course from this pure biological mandate.

Our social changes have brought opportunities to people without power, who have often been told they should not have power because it's not "natural" for them to have power. That their biology makes it better for them to be without power.

I think that the prior order was so dependent on female subservience that it collapsed the minute anything else started to happen. Had the roles appropriate to boys been less dysfunctional in how to relate to female humans there might be less confusion in the upset.
Click to expand...

Back just to clarify here. I offer the biological perspective as an answer for why D/s kinky sex might be more natural than many think. I made the point as a response to the subject of this thread. The biology does not exclude female Dommes. When I mention female subs, it is my personal preference, I have a right to that, don't I?

You brought up social change as it relates to masculinity in males, this is what I was responding to.

My points about the decline of our society was with regard to what we view as a healthy male, how the majority of males and females have moved to an immature egocentric view toward others rather than one of compassion, etc. My comments were not intended to reflect on voting rights, property ownership, etc. and I did not say it or imply it.

Now I really have to go.
 
Last edited:
JMohegan said:
You make them sound like soooo many male Doms.

I don't have a problem with the straightforward. Rude is rarely helpful, but forthright is a quality I respect.
Click to expand...

I prefer straightforward also; I call it being assertive rather than manipulative and view it as a positive quality.
 
Sir Victor said:
Back just to clarify here. I offer the biological perspective as an answer for why D/s kinky sex might be more natural than many think. I made the point as a response to the subject of this thread. The biology does not exclude female Dommes. When I mention female subs, it is my personal preference, I have a right to that, don't I?
Click to expand...
An excerpt from one of your links in post 26 is pasted below.

When people start talking about alpha males and submissive females in the animal kingdom, as evidence of "natural" D/s, that biology actually *does* exclude a perspective on female Dommes as natural or normal or indeed anything but anomalous.



Apes congregate in groups, we all know "too many chefs spoil the pot" and it is therefore instinctual for the male members to fight to select the strongest one to lead the group, the Alpha male. The Alpha male then usually gets his pick of the females probably choosing the one that is most attractive to him. This selection is also instinctive, with a preference for young firm females because she has good eggs (newer with fewer genetic imperfections, females do not produce new eggs) which increases the probability of healthy offspring. Human males are known to be competitive and to tend to fight or engage in contests symbolically through games/sports. Some females have been bold enough to admit that it is stimulating or arousing to watch men engage in bar/physical fights . We can't ask the female Apes but there is no doubt it has the same effect and gets them ready for mating with the males. The Alpha male doesn't ask the female for permission and it is probably by design that she has an additional hormonal thrill in submitting to him. Most ladies admit that they like the man they've chosen to take them hard as if he can't hold back. Their instinctual submissiveness makes following the male a natural even pleasurable thing. This is often viewed as romantic passion. A lady with a strong man who she has observed and knows she can trust is then in good hands to be protected and taken care of. Her submission minimizes conflict, and provides for one to have the final say for the family group, the arbiter.
Click to expand...
 
00Syd said:
Behavior is affected by your genetics. Everything about you is created by your genes, and your genes are influenced by your environment.
Click to expand...

Can you expand on this? The thinking has certainly changed since I was in college, and I'm curious. . . .

(edited to add - I just found your link and perhaps that will help me. I got excited and posted before I'd read through the next page. . . )
 
Last edited:
eastern sun said:
Can you expand on this? The thinking has certainly changed since I was in college, and I'm curious. . . .

(edited to add - I just found your link and perhaps that will help me. I got excited and posted before I'd read through the next page. . . )
Click to expand...

The old argument amongst biologists and evolutionary biologists and sociologists was, of course, nature V. nurture. Scientists now realize that this argument is obsolete. Scientists (specifically biologists and evolutionary biologists) now ask the question "To what extent does the environment affect our genes?" Biologists have done experiments and found that two creatures with an identical gene, put in two different environments (and environment in this context means everything from setting, experiences, physical environment - even the womb has been found to be an environment that can affect a genes reaction!) will come out with that identical gene manifesting itself (physically or behaviorally) in very different ways.

I'll see if I can find any other articles I have besides the one I mentioned that I could send along :)
 
I saw a documentary recently that pointed out the fact that our biology is not entirely determined by our genes (epigenetics) as we previously thought and in this area I agree with you. The program suggested that physical and emotional stressors in one generation could alter the physical makeup of future generations and IIRC it was not through genetic changes. Here's a link on the subject, not sure if it is the same documentary that I watched: http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.com/2007/10/ghost-in-your-genes-full-nova.html
This might work better: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html

However, nature vs. nurture as I understand it, is more about brain and personality development as people and doctors wonder why children turn out the way that they do. Certainly, trauma and neurosis play a large part here.

I've also read about how some instincts are there in a latent form but have to be "turned on" through experience in early development to become active. I believe that it was from this book:
http://www.addresources.org/article_shadow_syndromes_ratey.php

I'm not saying that this has anything to do with D/s, as I believe that this is more fundamental and in the very basic brain wiring. To be human, indeed to be an animal is to have D/s tendencies.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
As a masochist, what do you get out of hard extreme SM?
2
Replies
26
Views
3K
fma20fma
fma20fma
N
Looking for a sexual friendship
Replies
12
Views
961
abvt75
A
AwkwardMD
What I Wrote And Why: The Perfect Storm
Replies
9
Views
294
lilshymynx
lilshymynx
Incandescent_Marigold
Delving into D/s – Identifying a Fake Dom!
Replies
24
Views
2K
Incandescent_Marigold
Incandescent_Marigold
T
Any feedback/suggestions on my romantic stepsibling story
Replies
10
Views
254
Threepio10
T
Back
Top