The Haters

[AMoveableBeast]

Whether it is an opportunity to learn and whether the author of the story sees it as an opportunity to learn are two different things. And on this Web site, I think it's a misunderstanding (unless the author has posted a request for critique on the Feedback forum)--and rather arrogant--to assume that people are posting stories for an opportunity to learn from you to write better. That certainly has nothing to do with why I post stories here. And once having taken that false assumption they are easily led into giving critiques that aren't welcome--and there's no reason why they should be unless they were directly requested.

Oh, I don't think it has to be anything so formal as a critique, though I guess if that is the way the person in questions personality runs that's fine. And it certainly isn't about teaching anyone anything. It's just human interaction.

I just tend to believe that any artistic endeavor undertaken in the public eye is an invitation for a response of some kind--whether that is clapping (here maybe fapping substitutes) or booing depends a bit on the audience. But otherwise, what is the point? Are you, as Vonnegut said, simply "opening the window and making love to the world?"

If you disagree, try playing the bagpipes unexpectedly at any sufficiently crowded venue and watch the "feedback" roll in. I just think it is strange to do something that encourages an interactive response--breakdancing, beat poetry, burping the alphabet, taking part in a fucking chili cook-off --in an open forum, and not expect a response of some kind, either positive or negative. Theoretically, if one did not want one, the performer would stay home and practice the craft in the relative peace and quiet of their own home.

I find, rather, it is that most people seek the cheers and not the jeers. But that's never been the case for...well, anything. Whether it's baking a cupcake, painting a mural, or singing a song--anytime you create something for public consumption, you no longer dictate how that product, even a free one, is treated.

You take the good with the bad.

 

[sr71plt]

Clapping or booing equate to rating, not written comment. We'll just have to disagree on this. I only give my view of it when someone posts as if Literotica is a critique site where everyone posts to improve their writing. That's just plain hogwash for most who post stories here, I think. It's more a reflection of the commenter's need to appear to be a writing expert--which also is hogwash for most of those critiquing stories here.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Clapping or booing equate to rating, not written comment. We'll just have to disagree on this. I only give my view of it when someone posts as if Literotica is a critique site where everyone posts to improve their writing. That's just plain hogwash for most who post stories here, I think. It's more a reflection of the commenter's need to appear to be a writing expert--which also is hogwash for most of those critiquing stories here.

I have no issue with the way you use the site. It's brought you enough pleasure that it has kept you here for many years. That seems like a good thing for you.

But I do know that the user of this site vary wildly, from category to category, writer to writer, reader to reader. At this point, I wonder if there even is a "most people" on this site.

I would say that the common unifying factor here is that we've all lost some bodily fluid in the pursuit of our reading, but the large readerships in horror and, especially sci-fi, which frequently features little to no sex, make me question even that.

As you have pointed out many times--there is no universal reader here. The writers, to me, seem no more homogenous.

 

[legerdemer]

Need I say I preface the following with "in my honest opinion" ? There, done it anyway.

The most comments I've ever gotten on a story is a whopping 10, on a story with over 100K views, and I am grateful for every one. Most of these expressed enjoyment of the story.

But I always appreciate those handful (total, across all my stories) comments when a reader took the time to tell me what they liked and what they didn't like. I don't expect such comments, but they are the ones I most enjoy, and learn from most - EVEN if I don't agree with them!


Call me arrogant, the asshole of the century! When I read a story, I assume - because the writer posted it publicly - that they are like me, and would also appreciate feedback. I have never flamed a story or insulted an author. But I have given honest feedback. And in most cases have been thanked for it.

Once you post, your story is fair game. Period. But that doesn't excuse rudeness. And it is my prerogative as an author to ignore the comments I think are off the wall. But I agree entirely with MSTarot that receiving such comments teaches you fortitude, and with AMoveableBeast and others that thoughtful criticism is more useful, and ultimately more satisfying, than the "had a great time jacking off to your story" type comment, as much as that is a criticism in itself.

 

[lovecraft68]

The problem with this repeated discussion-Pilot thinks only others say the same thing over and over not him-is he has decided what the entire site deems feedback and its what he thinks it is.

Pilot thinks anything short of a professionally laid out top to bottom full blown edit critique is 'feedback' and only from someone with a degree in editing or writing or..who really cares.

he assumes somehow without knowing every one of the thousands of readers here that no one is qualified to do that.

He assumes that is what everyone is looking for and very few really are.

What people are mostly looking for here is "I liked it because, I did not like it because or a few basic pointers like, it was good, but watch your to/too and there/their'

Anyone who reads and enjoys reading is qualified to say whether or not they felt the story was good or bad and voice their opinion on why. That is what feedback here is. Lit is not an English class or a book being submitted to an editor.

People see that as feedback, he does not. Therefore everyone on this site is an idiot and he is the only one who is right and will tell us about it for the rest of days.

The solution for anyone one is to decide what they feel is feedback and leave it at that and not try to argue or justify it to someone with a different stance.

My personal take as always been "You're the best and fuck off and die' are both equally useless, but there's plenty in between to take something from.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I would go a step further, LC, and argue that even in cases where something is submitted and published professionally, simple "lay opinions" are still credible and viable.

You don't need a degree in music to like The Stones. And if you did, music wouldn't be a very lucrative profession.

To me, popular appeal is easily as valid as critical acceptance, if not more so. It certainly spends better. Sure, I'd love both. I'd also like a ten-inch dick and an egg in my beer, but if I want any of those things, I better buy some fucking eggs.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

And legerdemer, I just wanted to say that I did, indeed, have a great time jacking-off to your story.

 

[lovecraft68]

I would go a step further, LC, and argue that even in cases where something is submitted and published professionally, simple "lay opinions" are still credible and viable.

You don't need a degree in music to like The Stones. And if you did, music wouldn't be a very lucrative profession.

To me, popular appeal is easily as valid as critical acceptance, if not more so. It certainly spends better. Sure, I'd love both. I'd also like a ten-inch dick and an egg in my beer, but if I want any of those things, I better buy some fucking eggs.

Okay, I don't drink beer, hate it, but I have to ask...why the hell would you want an egg in it?

Music is a great example. You know when I hear someone like Steven Tyler or Ozzy, someone with just a unique and iconic voice I think....they'd throw them off American Idol

The expression different strokes for different folks is corny, but true. Every story you put here will be liked by some, not liked by others and they will all have a reason-and valid one to them-why. Same for music, art, dancing anything.

So we write and hope we get more yays than nays and that's about it. Anything else becomes over thinking and we all know I hate to think.

 

[sr71plt]

The problem with this repeated discussion-Pilot thinks only others say the same thing over and over not him-is he has decided what the entire site deems feedback and its what he thinks it is.

I'm game. Cite where I have initiated a discussion on this rather than just responding to a discussion initiated by someone else. Yes, I'll keep fighting for those authors just using Literotica for a place to share their sex stories for fun and mutual titillation rather than a critique cite with strangers of unknown ability telling them how/what they should write. Tough shit if you don't like that.

No one has ever answered the question of by what right do they assume that posting a story here ipso facto means the author wants to be told how he/she can develop better as an author in the subjective--and all too often uneducated--view of some anonymous person.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm game. Cite where I have initiated a discussion on this rather than just responding to a discussion initiated by someone else. Yes, I'll keep fighting for those authors just using Literotica for a place to share their sex stories for fun and mutual titillation rather than a critique cite with strangers of unknown ability telling them how/what they should write. Tough shit if you don't like that.

No one has ever answered the question of by what right do they assume that posting a story here ipso facto means the author wants to be told how he/she can develop better as an author in the subjective--and all too often uneducated--view of some anonymous person.

I don't have to, just go scope out the feedback forum, you are forever going off on no one here is qualified, this is not a critique site, vigilante criticism. I don't have to dig up the obvious for people who are here all the time.

This is your platform of sorts and its your right to have it, but you're quick to point out when others do it and act like you don't.

That's my very simple point.

 

[legerdemer]

And legerdemer, I just wanted to say that I did, indeed, have a great time jacking-off to your story.

Now you tell me! Thank you!

And good to know - I'll get right on the next one...

 

[legerdemer]

I'm game. Cite where I have initiated a discussion on this rather than just responding to a discussion initiated by someone else. Yes, I'll keep fighting for those authors just using Literotica for a place to share their sex stories for fun and mutual titillation rather than a critique cite with strangers of unknown ability telling them how/what they should write. Tough shit if you don't like that.

No one has ever answered the question of by what right do they assume that posting a story here ipso facto means the author wants to be told how he/she can develop better as an author in the subjective--and all too often uneducated--view of some anonymous person.

The point I made very specifically is that I assume that right (in the sense of taking it) by virtue of the fact that if the author was too sensitive and delicate to take feedback they would 1) not post, or 2) turn off the feedback option.

This is my interpretation, and I stand by my right to give feedback whenever I feel like. YMMV

 

[sr71plt]

I don't have to, just go scope out the feedback forum, you are forever going off on no one here is qualified, this is not a critique site, vigilante criticism. I don't have to dig up the obvious for people who are here all the time.

This is your platform of sorts and its your right to have it, but you're quick to point out when others do it and act like you don't.

That's my very simple point.

I said cite where I have initiated any discussion on this. You haven't. If others bring it up I give the counterargument, yes. Obviously you want to use a muzzle on disagreement to serve your own agendas--a muzzle on me, in particular.

And you admonishing anyone else about riding hobby horse positions here just gets the horse laugh from me.

 

[legerdemer]

... I'd also like a ten-inch dick ...

And here I was, convinced you had one of those...

 

[lovecraft68]

I said cite where I have initiated any discussion on this. You haven't. If others bring it up I give the counterargument, yes. Obviously you want to use a muzzle on disagreement to serve your own agendas--a muzzle on me, in particular.

And you admonishing anyone else about riding hobby horse positions here just gets the horse laugh from me.

You're playing word games. I did not say you initiate it, I said every time it comes up you jump in with this.

Stop bandying about and own the fact you puff yourself up with this all the time. No one here is capable of a real critique and no reader wants vigilante comments. If they did not they would not have comments enabled, seeing as they do, they invite it.

Its very simple and let's face it, you take that stance because you feel no one should ever critique your work-and you are free to feel that way-but you project it on others.

 

[sr71plt]

The point I made very specifically is that I assume that right (in the sense of taking it) by virtue of the fact that if the author was too sensitive and delicate to take feedback they would 1) not post, or 2) turn off the feedback option.

This is my interpretation, and I stand by my right to give feedback whenever I feel like. YMMV

Sure, and I stand by my view that providing negative critique on a Literotica story says more about your needs to tell others how to write than it does about their purposes in posting stories here. You can't rightly assume they want critique until/unless they directly ask for it where they posted the story or in the Feedback forum. Your assumptions are speaking only to your own needs to be the superior teacher.

I think I've noted my position on this enough, so I'll just let you all continue to hammer away at your elitist positions on it. I don't agree with any of you who want to assume that people posting stories here are doing so to be told how to develop their writing better by some anonymous stranger.

 

[legerdemer]

Sure, and I stand by my view that providing negative critique on a Literotica story says more about your needs to tell others how to write than it does about their purposes in posting stories here. You can't rightly assume they want critique until/unless they directly ask for it where they posted the story or in the Feedback forum. Your assumptions are speaking only to your own needs to be the superior teacher.

I think I've noted my position on this enough, so I'll just let you all continue to hammer away at your elitist positions on it. I don't agree with any of you who want to assume that people posting stories here are doing so to be told how to develop their writing better by some anonymous stranger.

I assume you simply mean a stranger whose credentials you don't know. My professional work is regularly reviewed by anonymous peer reviewers, some of whom I have never met and know not from Adam/Eve.

But as a recipient of feedback here, it is I the recipient who decides what feedback is useful.
Just as a giver of feedback, it is I the giver who decides what feedback to give, if any.

 

[NotWise]

I would go a step further, LC, and argue that even in cases where something is submitted and published professionally, simple "lay opinions" are still credible and viable.

I'd take that a step further. I've asked for feedback on the feedback forum about one story or another. Most of the people responding there are other authors. With one exception, it turned out that I neither needed nor particularly wanted feedback from other authors--or editors, other than my own.

What I want is the gut reaction from readers. My most recent story now has 20,000+ views and 3 comments; one is relevant and says something to the effect of "this is a bigger cluster fuck than the first story"

I'll take that and maybe learn from it, but what I learn might not be what the anonymous commenter expected.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'd take that a step further. I've asked for feedback on the feedback forum about one story or another. Most of the people responding there are other authors. With one exception, it turned out that I neither needed nor particularly wanted feedback from other authors--or editors, other than my own.

What I want is the gut reaction from readers. My most recent story now has 20,000+ views and 3 comments; one is relevant and says something to the effect of "this is a bigger cluster fuck than the first story"

I'll take that and maybe learn from it, but what I learn might not be what the anonymous commenter expected.

But when an author reads your story, do we not become readers?

Maybe it depends on the author, but when I give feedback I separate the author side of me(I.E. well I would have written it...or done...or said...) and just simply read it and go with that reaction.

Most authors are big readers-maybe not material here, but in general, so we still have that aspect to our make up

 

[NotWise]

But when an author reads your story, do we not become readers?

Normally, no. At least not from my experience, including experience watching the feedback given to other authors.

 

[lovecraft68]

Normally, no. At least not from my experience, including experience watching the feedback given to other authors.

I'll have to pay attention to that. I think the only thing I ever asked for feedback on was in a couple of the 'critic' threads, Bard and Liam...something...

 

[NotWise]

I'll have to pay attention to that. I think the only thing I ever asked for feedback on was in a couple of the 'critic' threads, Bard and Liam...something...

The feedback I've gotten (and given, for that matter) on the feedback forum is mostly a paragraph or so of writerly stuff. "Your characters aren't likable.", "There's no plot.", "show, don't tell", etc.

That's all appreciated, but it isn't quite the same thing as "That's shit." from a reader who decided to say something.

 

[lovecraft68]

The feedback I've gotten (and given, for that matter) on the feedback forum is mostly a paragraph or so of writerly stuff. "Your characters aren't likable.", "There's no plot.", "show, don't tell", etc.

That's all appreciated, but it isn't quite the same thing as "That's shit." from a reader who decided to say something.

Well we have JBJ to say 'that's shit' on the feedback forum to represent the authors.

 

[legerdemer]

But when an author reads your story, do we not become readers?

Maybe it depends on the author, but when I give feedback I separate the author side of me(I.E. well I would have written it...or done...or said...) and just simply read it and go with that reaction.

I think we all try to do this - and in particular, when I edit, rarely, I try to insert as little of my own voice as possible. But I bet it's harder to do than we think.

The feedback I've gotten (and given, for that matter) on the feedback forum is mostly a paragraph or so of writerly stuff. "Your characters aren't likable.", "There's no plot.", "show, don't tell", etc.

That's all appreciated, but it isn't quite the same thing as "That's shit." from a reader who decided to say something.

In both cases, I think you'd like - ideally - multiple opinions, so that you can tell what really doesn't work from a particular reader's (or author's) idiosyncrasies.

Well we have JBJ to say 'that's shit' on the feedback forum to represent the authors.

Occasionally he's more refined than that - he replaces "shit" with "word salad" in the case of poetry. (Not saying his POV lacks all validity. But he has very strong opinions and specific tastes - which takes me back to my answer to NotWise.

 

[NotWise]

I am in tune with your wife. Just saying. move on with the discussion.

I didn't track this back, but the framed expression that LC described is probably what a lot of women would like. It doesn't happen all that often.

My wife has framed a number quotations, but nothing so interesting.