Your opinion vs. fact

[Starfish]

It gets frustrating when people throw out menial observations based on one or few circumstances or one little idea without looking at the big picture, or testing their idea at all, and preach it as fact.


There is a world of fact out there. It is being taught to those who seek the education, and advanced by those who know what has been learned in experiment and testing. Those who don't learn it are being left behind in a mental dark age that will seemingly always exist.


I remember sitting in Anthropology class getting edgy at the thought of this, when my professor brought it up, but after a decent explanation I was settled in understanding why animals have instincts, and we have only drives. First you have to understand the difference. However, even after proof of this fact, many people didn't or wouldn't digest it. They were reluctant and many argued about it with the teacher giving their opinion as 'fact' even after being shown concrete examples of what has been learned.


Well, that issue is not something I want to get into, but I do want to know what gives? Why are people so apt to jump to the conclusion that just because uncle Jesse said it was so, doesn't mean it is the truth. Or that they read it somewhere so it must be a fact. Most of what you read out there is just someone else's opinion.


Take the matter of the common misconception that we only use 10% of our brains. There is, and never has been any indicator or proof that this is a fact. As a matter of fact, this tidbit of information arose long before any technology could have answered this question in any legitimate sense. We have yet to have that technology. Yet people still spread and accept this misfortunate 'fact'.
Why does this fallacy continue to be perpetuated among people?

Habit? Is that is why? Is it a defense mechanism?


Are you one who does this? Why?


Many who spend their lives working to learn are finding it harder and harder to cope with the mass ignorance that is perpetuated by people. I am one who is starting to not care if people get it or not.

 

[seXieleXie]

actually that 10% of the brain this is out and out wrong. neurons that aren't used die. we don't have a lot of empty space in our heads. there is a reason for this.


i know what you mean starfishie. i think being in college has given me an idea of how much "conventional wisdom" is just bullshit. of course i still fall for it, but i do try to avoid believing everything everyone tells me.

 

[Horny Hippie Girl]

Metaphysical Territory

Well, Starfish, My love, you are definitely heading into Metaphysical territory with this one. Once you start to ask questions like that it leads to questions like,"Do we really know anything at all?" "Are we even really here?"

Science after all is completely based on what human beings have been able to observe. We really have no way of knowing how accurate our perception really even is. Think about astronomy, for example. Humans have perceived certain thinks and theorized about what they are and what they are doing out there. We really, when you think about it, have no real idea about anything. How do we know any of this is even real? Our scientific methods could be completely flawed. One day, someone could discover something that completely changes the way we view everything. The earth isn't flat, after all.

And what about all the things that exist that we can't visually perceive?? Do they exist any less because our eyes and minds are to punny to understand and see?

 

[dreamer]

Ahhh..hehe the great weakness of teaching. See it's impossible to get up the nerve to stand in front of a bunch of people and say....well this MAY be the truth...and btw I'm going to grade you and test you on how much of MY truth you can understand and remember.

SO....the wise student learns this and accepts what they can. You, my dear, are allready ahead of the game because you have figured this one out. Even with all the mathematics classes it took for my degree in Math I realized VERY quickly that 'reality' and 'truth' we all strive for is all just based on your assumptions.

What I like about Math is that the assumptions are few. Anthropology on the otherhand...I don't even think one could list all the assumptions made.

Damn, I miss school...maybe I should go back after all.

As for stupid people...yup not doubt the numbers are growing there...but then again...isn't that just an example of one of those 'facts' I've come to the conclusion that people don't want to think for themselves anymore. Its just more comforting to be told what to do, how to think, etc... That's one of the things I've found refreshing here is that people here tend to think about things. I think it's just easier. If there's one thing we know about human nature people want to take the easiest path.

 

[scylis]

why? b/c they want to sound smart, to be right and you to be wrong, and to be liked for their intelligence. or they just don't want to sound stupid.

it's damn frustrating to have a mighty impressive IQ when damn near everybody else are just too damn ignorant. i hate having to dumb what i'm saying down so others can actually understand it.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

There's a very good treatise on this in the book "Why People Believe Weird Things". Maybe I'll try to find it later and summarize. But it does offer a very lucid explanation for why people continually accept fallacy as fact.

The 10% of the brain thing comes from something written (very off hand) in the 70s, I believe. It's an easy enough thing to look up -- just check any of the urban myth web sites for a complete story.

We use 100% of our brains, just like we use 100% of our liver.

 

[bluntforcemama]

My opinion is fact. At least I think so.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Facts are nothing without some sort of interpretation of them. CNN spews out "factoids" all the time, and none of them are worth a tinker's damn to me unless I do something with them. Facts NEVER speak for themselves.

The problem is that people draw their inferences on the basis of too few facts or the wrong facts or on fallacious reasoning. It is possible to do that and get along in life just fine, one doesn't always need THE TRUTH in order to do something. If we did, none of us would get very far. Most of us work with partial or contingent truths most of the time.

But unless something happens to disturb the partial truths we build our lives upon, there isn't much incentive for us to find more or better information, to sharpen our reasoning skills, to improve our interpretations.

The other problem of course is that when people's opinions or partial truths are threatened, the see it as a threat to themselves, and so they start building walls around their opinions. Those walls are often quite effective in filtering out evidence or reasoning that challenges our opinions.

 

[Weevil]

Habit? Is that is why? Is it a defense mechanism?


Are you one who does this? Why?

Gosh, I don't remember doing this in any specific circumstance but I do know that I used to argue ots of things that were "facts"

Why? Two reasons.

Firstly, because it often helped me understand what was being said. Sometimes it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

Secondly, as my physics major frat brother once said, all progress in the history of science has been made by people contesting accepted "facts". Gallileo, Newton, Einstein and the rest took on an establishment that had "facts" to back them up. Science is all theory, theory with supporting evidence but theory nontheless.

 

[Mellon Collie]

of course i still fall for it, but i do try to avoid believing everything everyone tells me.

Me too but I'm really weird about it. Like if my friend is telling some random mundane fact (like we only use 10% of our brain), I'll take it as truth because it doesn't really matter to me and if I repeat this fact I would tell the person that I don't know if it's really true or not.

But at the same time I question every word I am taught at school. I remember my Physics teacher in high school hated me because I would always ask how he knew that [inset some physics crap here] was true. He would think I was doubting whether or not her was correct, but I was actually asking how this conclusion was made and if every possible alternative was investigated. Not that I would really know if Einstein fucked up somewhere but I have to know, I'm weird like that. And Science and Math just kill me, I hate the whole theoretical this is subject to change and most likely will thing.

That's why I'm a Cultural Anthropology major, it is much more stable and the changes are exciting, not annoying.

 

[ksmybuttons]

Disclaimer: Not all facts remain the same and I don't know....

The last I read, we were doubling the entire human medical knowledge base about every 18 months. That was a while ago...It has probably already changed. Several times.

For every "fact", there is someone that has "researched" and disproven it, offered another viewpoint, or enhanced it.

The only things I can truly know are those that are concrete. Even then there are filters: my own beliefs, my own anatomy, my own talents, my own experience and and my own perceptions.

Anecdotal knowledge.

 

[Starfish]

I agree about the metaphysical inquiry stuff, but the only thing we have to go on is to compare and observe. That is the best we can do, and to be honest, it is the most valid and effective means to gain knowledge to base our understanding of nature on so far.

I don't care if one wants to get hung up on unanswerable questions, like 'are we real'. It doesn't serve any purpose. Science does. It aids us, helps us grow, and become more in touch with what is in front of us, real or not. And, what is real? Is it really real, or just only partly real?

Really though, we don't have to waste time inquiring about the nature of our existence, but we do. Why? To better ourselves and to help others. It is in our nature to be curious. We need to satisfy our curiosities. It is just that some people are apt to settle their curiosities in ways that are not really structured in a way that is solid enough to base a foundation for existence on.

I am a skeptic. Always have been, but I am not so skeptical that I can't adapt to the idea that there may be things like spirits, or that the paranormal may exist, but it is most likely not how most people view it. I just tend to think that most of it is tripe, which it is. People feed into it, so they tend to want it to exist. I could care less either way, but the fact that I've had so very many things happen to me makes me curious.

Dixon doesn't believe in the soul. I tend to lean in favor of the idea, but wouldn't be devastated if it didn't exist. I am not the kind of skeptic that has to have proof to think something can’t exist if we can’t prove it. That, in my eyes, is just weak minded acceptance that if something can’t be grasped and remain consistent enough for everyone to view it the same, that it doesn’t exist. This is simply not accurate thinking. If it were, then since you have emotional feelings, you can prove it right? Not.

I only believe in it because I of the circumstances of my personal existence. No proof of it exists.
However, I have communicated with 'something’s. I've had clear indication that there is even purpose to our lives. As hard as that is to prove, it is something I lean toward. I lean toward it because it validates a lot. It partly explains why I have premonitions that are not only accurate but chillingly odd, for one. I've had countless physiological tests, and I've had medical tests (EEG) and that I have nothing wrong with my brain physically, but on a rare occasions I will hear a voice tell me something. There are several voices I've heard. Each different. Each with something different to say. Each with a purpose.

Before you write me off as a psycho, remember.... this happens on rare and spread out occasions. It is not a regular occurrence. That is why I so clearly notice it.

In general, my hearing is changing too. I have a non constant, but chronic ringing in my ears that came up last year. I asked IFB if his ears were ringing, he said no. He was the only person I was in private contact with at the time, and I wondered if it was something happening to him also.
Well, I went and had my ears and sinuses checked anyway.... all fine. No tenitus (sp?).

After time, this didn't cease, but I noticed a pattern to it. I would be thinking about something and the ringing would come up in my ear. Particularly when I was thinking about something to do with IFB. That is why I asked him. Well, time passed and it didn't stop.

The thing is, there are different tones to it, and what is even stranger, there is the clear indication that it might be intentional because I've noticed that things that turn out that I was thinking about are true... I had gotten a high pitched ringing in my right ear. Anything I think of that turns out to be false, was a low pitched ringing in my left ear. This is just my observation, and hasn't been rigorously tested but has been going on since last May.
It still goes on to this day, but even more odd, it is starting to sound like annunciated syllabic breaks. No words, just ringing that is broken. The more I ignore it, the more persistent it is.

Sunday night, while standing by the window that looks out back, I heard in my left ear.... the soft, faint voice of a woman say "time to go to bed". I hadn't even thought of going to sleep yet. It was not nerve racking, but I looked around and didn't see anyone.

The only way I know I am not crazy is that there is nothing else wrong with me psychologically, and that as I sit here typing and saying these words in my head as I type them, I clearly know the difference between the sound of a voice outside my head, coming into my ear, compared to that of which I sound like, while thinking in my head.







http://www.theness.com/


This is a decent site on debunking crap science.

On matters of the paranormal. I am one who has had some very fucked up things happen to, with witnesses, here in my home.

I am not, nor ever have been of the conviction that it is a 'ghost'. I have however, speculated to a degree about the nature of each individual event, and compared them to other things that I read up on about them, after they happen.

Well, oddly enough, one can't do that when there is nothing out there written about what I am experiancing. This is most likly due to the idea that most stuff about 'ghosts' is crap, lore, gossip, yammerd on and on, as 'fact' without a leg to stand on.

Well, for a long time I had evidence, but my father destroyed it before it could be anylized. He didn't mean to, it was an accident.

I will take the time to explain that and all of my experiances here, but I must first say with conviction that I don't just to the conclusion that there are ghosts or aliens taunting me, though the idea did cross my mind.

However, I am now taking what I know about science, and I am planning on using High frequency recording device and a good external mic, an EMF reader, and several other advanced types of scientific equipment to do studies in my home and in this area.

One thing that has been witnessed by the whole fire department and many people on the road, myself and my husband, and who knows who else was a great anomola of light spanning the sky and shooting up into the cloud cover one night four years ago.
This is still left unexplained, but I am sure something is significant about the light because it was purely white, then into green, then into blue and then gone. There were a ton of 911 calls that night, but noone knew what the hell happend. No transformers blew, not one. It would be easily explained by the common occurance of the Atmospheric changes that create the right conditions, but it has something to do with magnetic energy, because there has to be a degree of it prescent to make for that sort of thing to happen, as in the Aurora Borialis. However, there have been continual reports of strange blue lights in the area. This has been going on for some time. I even had a dose of it myself, with my mother, looking down the stairs into our basement. (I'll tell the whole story later)

I shouldn't go on, untill I write everything out that has happened to me, for you all to read coherently, but I will tonight, I promise. It is worth the time, thus my inquisition into the matter. I am very interested in nature, and if it is natural phenomenon to have glowing blue green lights and wirring sounds in your basement, or capital R's burnt into your window screen while your cat screams bloody murder, and a hard wind blows through, then it is something I want to know more about.

 

[Azwed]

Starfish do you ever have what sounds like a hunderd or so voices all talking over each other at once in your head???

This has happend to me on several occasions when I have been sitting concentrating on one particular thing for a very long time. I have to be doing nothing but deep concentration for several hours for it to happen but when it does it is like all of a sudden I am in a very crowded room with a few hunded other people all talking at once. Whenever I try to just pick out one particular voice and listen to it and no others I lose all of them, but if i just sit and let it happen sometimes other voices will be louder then the rest. Those voices will almost be clear but still sound a little far off and distorted. I can't really understand what they say but I can tell the tone of the voice. If it is a happy tone or mad or sad or whatever.

This has only ever happend when I have been in my old dorm or my apartment. Both of these places have 280 and 150 people in them respectively. It makes me wonder.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I am not the kind of skeptic that has to have proof to think something can’t exist if we can’t prove it. That, in my eyes, is just weak minded acceptance that if something can’t be grasped and remain consistent enough for everyone to view it the same, that it doesn’t exist. This is simply not accurate thinking. If it were, then since you have emotional feelings, you can prove it right?

This is a common misconception about what a skeptic "is". A skeptic does not accept lack of proof as proof that something does not exist, only that it is unlikely, and, if the "something" makes extraordianry claims, like telekenisis or bleeding statues, then it demands extraoridnary scrutiny.

In other words, the biggest sketpic in the world can have plenty of faith in a soul, a God, and an afterlife, mostly because these are questions of faith, and faith is, by its defintion, beyond the scope of testablilty. Skeptics don't concern themselves with the "untestable"; at least not as far as faith is concerned (they certainly will concern themselves with the "untestable" if it comes to commercial organizations that collect money or legislation).

A skeptic understands that it is illogical to expect anyone to prove a negative. For example, the burden of proof for the existance of a soul is on the believer, not on the skeptic. A Skeptic has no compunction to announce "There is no soul, and here's the proof...", because the concept of a soul, as it is defined, is faith-based and untestable, therefore Science is not required to prove its inexistance. That's not how science works, and it's not how skepticism works.

However, a red flag for all skeptics concerned with spurious claims in exhange for money is if the claim relies entirely on the inability of science to prove a negative as proof of its viability.

 

[Starfish]

Starfish do you ever have what sounds like a hunderd or so voices all talking over each other at once in your head???

This is very interesting. In my memoirs I was going to tell a quickie about how twice, in different rooms of the house, under different circumstances, I've heard what sounded like many voices, even musical insturment like sounds, saying something then laughter.

The first happened three nights before the night I got physical evidence of somthing manipulating physical matter.

I was sitting in my bed, that rested on the floor below the window, meditating. I was very entranced the whole time, and I felt like I was floating. After I was done, I got up to pee, but never turned the lights on. I came back, sat down, opened the window, and lit a cigarette. (don't worry, I quit). I was sitting below window level for some time, and I rose up to look out on the neighbor hood. I took a drag and as my cherry lit up, I heard a chorus of voices break out, sounding like it was coming from in between the houses across the street, say "I see you" and then heavy laughter, some sounding very sinister.

I said "Where are you?" and the laughter got louder and louder till it just cut out and I felt very much like something was approaching me. I shut the window quickly. I pulled the shade.

When the next incident happened, I had just laid down in my bed, (different room, because I moved due to the shit going on in the other room) to love on and to pet my kitty Adrock (r.i.p), and after a minute or so he started to growl,(not like him at all) bit my arm hard, drew blood, and then I heard the laughter in the varying tone and musical sounds come from the end of the bed. I was paralyzed and couldn't move anything but my head, untill it stopped, but could feel everything. I saw nothing.

I will never forget the clarity in which these incidents occured in. I was not partly asleep for either of them.

I've never had a waking dream before except the kind where you think you are walking and then you just kick you leg and you think your falling. That is it.

 

[lobito]

I only knowingly spew opinions, if I happen upon fact, then it's merely coincidence.

We're almost always right in our own minds, even if it is actually wrong.

 

[Starfish]

This is a common misconception about what a skeptic "is". A skeptic does not accept lack of proof as proof that something does not exist, only that it is unlikely, and, if the "something" makes extraordianry claims, like telekenisis or bleeding statues, then it demands extraoridnary scrutiny.

Dixon, this is great. I really appreciate you clearing that up for me. That helps me out a lot. I've always had a hard time feeling that is was appropriate for me to call myself a skeptic, when I believe in God and the soul.


I actually have thought that all that science does is further aid us in understanding the powers that create and the forces that are what 'God' really are, not debunk the existance of God.

Thanks again for clearing that up.

Now I know where I stand.

 

[RisiaSkye]

It's really a semantics game. That which we currently call irrefutable fact might have been seen as the purest of folly and fantasy at another point in history, and may well be seen that way again. "Scientific Fact" is only the most popular of opinions.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe many or even most things alleged by various scientific researchers, etc. It means, however, that I'm not convinced that their answers are the only possible or only verifiable answers available. Instead, they are the best explanations we can come up with, under the limitations of our ways of studying and the rigorous rules of our societal systems of belief.

 

[Guest]

we are the Borg...

Geez, fishy, where do I begin?

There is much about cognition that remains to be understood. You've truly had some uniqe experiences. My coolest was me sitting in a chair against a wall, with a cat walking behind me on the floor. Then, the cat flies over my shoulder - actually 3 feet over my shoulder as it flew in a straight line across the room, twisting ass-over-elbows, landing on it's side. This was a fat, sedintary cat that could not achieve that 6 foot height or go straight up then fly the way it did. That house was and still is full of events.

Please keep us posted on your progress

Max is calling me....

BUT, what about when science produces evidence that is subsequently ignored??

 

[Starfish]

Re: we are the Borg...

BUT, what about when science produces evidence that is subsequently ignored??

Exactly, This is what sparked my starting this thread. This happens all too often, just because it extends beyond peoples' comfort zone, not because it is any less valid.

This is the real problem, not that science is ever changing (or growing as I like to put it).


The reluctance to see the evidence for what it is is clouded by the opinion, from a comfort zone perspective, of those who don't wish to think open mindedly.

 

[Azwed]

Every time the voices thing has happend to me I have been either writing a paper or playing a video game. It has only happend once or twice when writing a paper but has happend several times when I was playing a game with the sound off. I almost feel like I was concentrating so hard at the game or paper that I had opened my mind to another level or something.

The one time i have heard the voices when I was playing a video game with the sound on was the most disturbing. I always play Half life with my headphones on because it lets me hear footsteps sneaking up behind me. I was really in the zone for this one game and at first I could not really hear the voices they just sounded like more game sounds. After a little while I was so deeply involved in the game that the voices came out loud enough to drown out all the game sounds.

Half life is a very loud game full of gunshots and explosions and I could hear none of that. All of it was covered up by the voices.



Another thing I just remembered is that the voices have happend more at my apartment then my dorm. Part of this would be the fact that I have been at my apartment much longer but I wonder if part of it comes from my next door neighbor.

The second week we moved into the apartment one of the girls that lived across from us died. She and her roommate had been the first people we met in our building. They took us out drinking and were very nice to us. She died the first friday night that I spent in the apartment. The offical police report was a heart attack but it was really alcohol poisoning.

Oh one other note. The first or second night I was in the dorms a girl in the dorm across from ours died of alcohol poisoning too.


These of course could just be coincadences. I mean people die on college campuses all the time from alcohol poisoning.

 

[Starfish]

As I was reading what you've written above, Azwed, I was more or less thinking in the back of my mind about if you were just being overtaxed by the focusing on the video game and what not, and that has made you hallucinate, and I don't mean to be rude, but I was doubting this as being a sort of 'outside' influence, by thinking 'Is this in his head?'

Well, just then, no shit, I quickly felt pressure build on the left side of my head and then a long, medium resounding ring came up into my left ear and then stopped after about 6 seconds. This is the side that is indicative of a negative response (well, based on my experiance with it).

I don't trust this phenomenon/whole bit 100% or anything, but if you were to go on that alone, eh? Makes you wonder.


I am however convinced that this ringing in my ears bit is not a physical condition. That has been verified. It is so consistant that I am sort of leaning over the 50% mark that it has something to do with something very odd, and unexplainable.