Write a controversial opinion

[Kelliezgirl]

Another hot take:

Going 2295 words without identifying the gender of your narrator or MC is...

Well, normally I don't even get far enough to facepalm over it. I'm just out. Partly because a flaw like that is almost never the only one. But even if it's not, it's a big enough flaw all by itself that it can take me out.

It's like... I probably would read the story no matter what their gender is, but, not knowing what it is because the author can't have the presence of mind to state it makes for a shitty reading experience.

I really don't like the mental effort it takes to hold multiple versions of the story in mind for however long it takes to discover the line which finally reveals it. And I like even less the whiplash of believing I know the gender only to be wrenched into a different story when I find I guessed wrong. Again, I'm talking about when it's because the author just forgot to show it or tell it.

I'm not talking about stories where the ambiguity is a deliberate effect. (There's a whole discussion about this somewhere.) I'm talking about just plain forgetting that readers need facts to be narrated. Shown or told, I don't care—just don't assume mindreading.

 

[Britva415]

View attachment 2571176

Not 2295, but I bet I can find 10 stories from just the past couple of days which go for at least a third of the first page before they get around to letting it slip.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Not 2295, but I bet I can find 10 stories from just the past couple of days which go for at least a third of the first page before they get around to letting it slip.

I got curious, cause I couldn't actually remember stating the gender of my protagonist in my latest story. And there the love interest is called male, the antagonist is mentioned by a male name in the third paragraph, and there are no gay tags so it could be implied fairly early on that my protagonist is female, but it isn't confirmed until halfway through the very short story. As in, it might be less than the 2295 words you listed short. But, it can be hard sometimes to gender 1pv characters without being awkward, especially in such a short story. How do you do it for your 1pv stories?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I got curious, cause I couldn't actually remember stating the gender of my protagonist in my latest story. And there the love interest is called male, the antagonist is mentioned by a male name in the third paragraph, and there are no gay tags so it could be implied fairly early on that my protagonist is female, but it isn't confirmed until halfway through the very short story. As in, it might be less than the 2295 words you listed short. But, it can be hard sometimes to gender 1pv characters without being awkward, especially in such a short story. How do you do it for your 1pv stories?

I looked at my 1P stories, and in all of them there is a conversation early on and a name is used. I suppose if you used unisex names it could be confusing, but I generally don't.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I looked at my 1P stories, and in all of them there is a conversation early on and a name is used. I suppose if you used unisex names it could be confusing, but I generally don't.

Yeah that's what I usually do too. It just didn't seem right for this story. Although, the antagonist does call her his slut fairly early on. And most people use that term for women, although I have seen it used to degrade bottoms as well.

 

[Statius]

I got curious, cause I couldn't actually remember stating the gender of my protagonist in my latest story. And there the love interest is called male, the antagonist is mentioned by a male name in the third paragraph, and there are no gay tags so it could be implied fairly early on that my protagonist is female, but it isn't confirmed until halfway through the very short story. As in, it might be less than the 2295 words you listed short. But, it can be hard sometimes to gender 1pv characters without being awkward, especially in such a short story. How do you do it for your 1pv stories?

If this your Halloween story, it was well done!

 

[NuclearFairy]

If this your Halloween story, it was well done!

Thank you, and yes.

 

[Statius]

Thank you, and yes.

. How ya been?

 

[NuclearFairy]

. How ya been?

I've been worse. I know I know, that's a very controversial thing to say.

 

[UnexpectedLuggage]

I’m curious about your opinion of what counts for sex. I recently had this come up in a story I wrote.
Story is 15k words long. 12k of that is the breaking down of the traditional mother/son dynamic so that they can get to the sex. There are about 2000 words of foreplay and teasing. Actual intercourse is 2 paragraphs (about 200 words).
Would this have irritated you or would the 200 words been a payoff for the previous 2000?

That's a good question.

I think, for me, it's a matter of the payoff. Foreplay is fine, but I think 200 words would feel a little lackluster. Then again, if the story itself is really good I may not even notice, but I just know I've been disappointed by far too many stories with great lead up and what amounts to "and then they fucked" being the payoff and it always leaves me wanting more.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's a good question.

I think, for me, it's a matter of the payoff. Foreplay is fine, but I think 200 words would feel a little lackluster. Then again, if the story itself is really good I may not even notice, but I just know I've been disappointed by far too many stories with great lead up and what amounts to "and then they fucked" being the payoff and it always leaves me wanting more.

What category? That's acceptable (more or less) in Romance. YMMV

 

[Statius]

I’m curious about your opinion of what counts for sex. I recently had this come up in a story I wrote.
Story is 15k words long. 12k of that is the breaking down of the traditional mother/son dynamic so that they can get to the sex. There are about 2000 words of foreplay and teasing. Actual intercourse is 2 paragraphs (about 200 words).
Would this have irritated you or would the 200 words been a payoff for the previous 2000?

I think it depends on the type of story. Deep character, deep connections, strong emotions, I don't think that kind of story requires a lot of graphic sex at all. In that situation it's more about the catharsis, my opinion. Light hearted, comedic, absurd? The more sex the better, the more graphic and extreme, the better. Just my opinion. Of course as a disclaimer, there are always nuances.

 

[SimonDoom]

Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

John McClain is a Santa Claus figure. "Clain" -- "Claus." Think about it. McClain's near-magical ability to get around a high-rise office building has eerie parallels to Santa's ability to fly around the world. Hans Gruber is the anti-Santa Claus, the Krampus or Grinch if you will, who wants to take people's presents (or lives) away. In this case, of course, the Grinch doesn't have a change of heart, but falls to his death from a tall building, but that's a detail. The friendly cop is an angel figure, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.

At the end of the movie all the debris and paper are falling from the air, obviously intended as a metaphor for snow. Nakatomi Plaza is a Christmas tree symbol, with obvious lighting problems. The cops and FBI agents outside the building represent skeptics who don't believe in Santa but are proved wrong. The hostages inside the building are a metaphor for children who need to be shown that the gift of love -- i.e., being saved from killer terrorist thieves--is more important than presents-- i.e., Christmas company bonuses.

At the end the good people are reunited and everyone celebrates and the message is that love and togetherness, not presents, are what matter.

When Hans Gruber reads, "Ho ho ho" off a dead guy's chest, that seals it for me.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

John McClain is a Santa Claus figure. "Clain" -- "Claus." Think about it. McClain's near-magical ability to get around a high-rise office building has eerie parallels to Santa's ability to fly around the world. Hans Gruber is the anti-Santa Claus, the Krampus or Grinch if you will, who wants to take people's presents (or lives) away. In this case, of course, the Grinch doesn't have a change of heart, but falls to his death from a tall building, but that's a detail. The friendly cop is an angel figure, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.

At the end of the movie all the debris and paper are falling from the air, obviously intended as a metaphor for snow. Nakatomi Plaza is a Christmas tree symbol, with obvious lighting problems. The cops and FBI agents outside the building represent skeptics who don't believe in Santa but are proved wrong. The hostages inside the building are a metaphor for children who need to be shown that the gift of love -- i.e., being saved from killer terrorist thieves--is more important than presents-- i.e., Christmas company bonuses.

At the end the good people are reunited and everyone celebrates and the message is that love and togetherness, not presents, are what matter.

When Hans Gruber reads, "Ho ho ho" off a dead guy's chest, that seals it for me.

 

[alohadave]

Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

John McClain is a Santa Claus figure. "Clain" -- "Claus." Think about it. McClain's near-magical ability to get around a high-rise office building has eerie parallels to Santa's ability to fly around the world. Hans Gruber is the anti-Santa Claus, the Krampus or Grinch if you will, who wants to take people's presents (or lives) away. In this case, of course, the Grinch doesn't have a change of heart, but falls to his death from a tall building, but that's a detail. The friendly cop is an angel figure, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.

At the end of the movie all the debris and paper are falling from the air, obviously intended as a metaphor for snow. Nakatomi Plaza is a Christmas tree symbol, with obvious lighting problems. The cops and FBI agents outside the building represent skeptics who don't believe in Santa but are proved wrong. The hostages inside the building are a metaphor for children who need to be shown that the gift of love -- i.e., being saved from killer terrorist thieves--is more important than presents-- i.e., Christmas company bonuses.

At the end the good people are reunited and everyone celebrates and the message is that love and togetherness, not presents, are what matter.

When Hans Gruber reads, "Ho ho ho" off a dead guy's chest, that seals it for me.

Not only is it a Christmas movie, it's a Hallmark movie.

 

[UnexpectedLuggage]

What category? That's acceptable (more or less) in Romance. YMMV

Fair, hadn't really considered categories. I mostly read stuff in Erotic Couplings, Group, and Incest/Taboo.

Interestingly, that last one seems to be where I find stories that give the most details the most often.

 

[Britva415]

I got curious, cause I couldn't actually remember stating the gender of my protagonist in my latest story. And there the love interest is called male, the antagonist is mentioned by a male name in the third paragraph, and there are no gay tags so it could be implied fairly early on that my protagonist is female, but it isn't confirmed until halfway through the very short story. As in, it might be less than the 2295 words you listed short. But, it can be hard sometimes to gender 1pv characters without being awkward, especially in such a short story. How do you do it for your 1pv stories?

There are stories where it doesn’t have to be done too explicitly, if the clues are not only somewhat obvious but also are a true signal and not an inadvertent red herring. (I'm disregarding stories which do this deliberately. That is OK and is not what I'm objecting to.)

The particular story I’m reacting to had a few clues which, like, kiiiinda? seemed to point to a male MC/narrator, but there were enough other elements, including something very "leading" in the Description, which also seemed to point to a female MC/narrator, and the set-up . Either one would have been 100% plausible, and in fact unsurprising, up until the moment of revelation. I really didn't know which side this coin would land on - yet, I also didn't sense any whiff of genderfuck foreshadowing, either.

The particular story had a number of points where the author could have made the opportunity: The most obvious is having another character address them by name. I saw what you said about it somehow not seeming right for a story of your own, so here are some other things which can work in just about any story, definitely including the one I'm reacting to and probably also including the one of your own you mentioned:

• Naming a typically-gendered piece of clothing.
• Narrating some stereotypically-gendered thought process, habit, preference, or other trait - say for example, making a mental note to paint one's nails or shave one's whiskers.
• Revealing the name some other way besides having another character state it.
• Making reference to friends in a way which strongly suggests gender: Are they "buddies?" Did they "do brunch?"
• Referring to the gender of a significant other (spouse, bf/gf, fuckbuddy, etc) generally signals a heterosexual pair unless there was already a tag, title, description, category or other up-front clue that it's not about a heterosexual pair or gender-conforming people.
• And this one is a doozy: Just write in a voice which really seems gendered and not ambiguous. It's 1p, let the narrator live in his/her skin and speak with his/her voice.
• This is just a quick brainstorm. I really don't think it takes a lot of effort. The hard part is just bringing it to mind in the first place, not addressing it with an easy revision when one realizes it's absent.
• Someone mentioned tagging: If one really doesn't want to, or can't think of a suitable seeming way to, put it into the story text right at the beginning, then it would be fine to let the tags, title, or description do this job.

Another tactic is to carefully look for misdirecting elements: Is the gender of a roommate or platonic friend likely to lead to a wrong conclusion? What about the MC's profession? Length of hair? Relationship with mother or father? Do the tags or description create a perception that the MC is a particular gender, but the actual MC turns out not to be the character the tag or description refers to?

As long as there aren't any misdirecting details, it's a lot less likely that the reader will guess wrong or even notice that there's ambiguity or that there hasn't been a disclosure. And as a tactic, this one is probably unnecessary. Because, if one is doing this, it's because one is already aware that they haven't made the MC's gender obvious, and, as such, it's probably easier to just go ahead and do that than it is to comb through to eliminate misdirections.

Since you asked about me personally and what I myself do to take care of this, there are a couple of parts to my answer, and one of the parts is that I'm less and less likely to even do 1p at all anymore. Problem solved.

But the second part is that I have employed several of the tactics mentioned above and I always want the narrator's, and everyone else's, genders to be either clearly indicated or else accurately implied within 1 or 2 paragraphs of introducing them. So I just find a way, right there in the first draft.

I'm not forgetting about NB or GNC characters here, it's just that they're outside the scope of this. And I would hope that an author of such a story would be aware of the necessity to signal that it's that kind of story. I'm also not considering stories where there is deliberate ambiguity and "surprise" gender nonconformity, but even in a story like that, I would hope that the author's mindfulness of gender identity's importance to the story would have them crafting the narrative carefully enough that the reader has something else to think about besides "d'oh, author forgetting to tell us the gender."

 

[filthytrancendence]

Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

I think there ought to be a week long module in high school English classes entitled "Genre is a Lie that is True"

It should use this argument as the prime example and highlight how all genre distinctions are somewhat arbitrary and can always be broken with convenient outliers.

In the end, it's revealed that the actual title was "Genre is a Social Construct" and, oops, we just explained in detail with an engaging example how social constructs are simultaneously real and fake and how to spot when they are being used in a silly way.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

John McClain is a Santa Claus figure. "Clain" -- "Claus." Think about it. McClain's near-magical ability to get around a high-rise office building has eerie parallels to Santa's ability to fly around the world. Hans Gruber is the anti-Santa Claus, the Krampus or Grinch if you will, who wants to take people's presents (or lives) away. In this case, of course, the Grinch doesn't have a change of heart, but falls to his death from a tall building, but that's a detail. The friendly cop is an angel figure, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.

The film also references the line in "A Visit from St. Nicholas" (aka "The Night Before Christmas") where the narrator hears Santa's reindeer on the roof, in the scene where the cops hear the sound of a body falling (raining) on the roof of their car.

 

[Bramblethorn]

• Making reference to friends in a way which strongly suggests gender: Are they "buddies?" Did they "do brunch?"

wait, brunch is gendered now?

 

[Britva415]

wait, brunch is gendered now?

There is a cliché about it, yes. I'm not sure what you mean by "now" but it isn't new.

 

[iwatchus]

There is a cliché about it, yes. I'm not sure what you mean by "now" but it isn't new.

Interesting. I have never considered doing brunch gendered at all. I guess the cliche is groups of women having brunch together as they gossip. Thinking about having brunch at a restaurant, there are more all women groups than all men groups. And there are more all men groups at lunch, but not be much. But neither are dominant compared to mixed gender groups.

I think I mostly manage to ignore most of the gendering assumptions socially. But neither my SO nor I have any social groups that are largely mono-gendered. I can't think of the last social event that I went to that was predominantly a single gender. My SO and I have always divided the household chores along personal interests, which are often contrary to traditional gender roles. And we each had multiple year stretches being the primary care giver for our son as he was growing up.

Thinking about it, I cannot think of a time in my life where I did not have a close friend of each gender. In middle school, I had a female friend group and a male friend group, because most kids were not comfortable with generally mixed gender groups.

It probably has left me mostly oblivious to brunch being a gendered cliche, but more sensitive to things like mansplaining. I want to hear from the people who actually know what they are talking about, male or female, not the people who think they should just know because they have a penis.

 

[StillStunned]

not the people who think they should just know because they have a penis

Hey, some of us do our best thinking with our penis, I'll have you know!

 

[Erozetta]

I'm now going to start every male pov story I write with a reference to their jockstrap.

 

[Statius]

I'm now going to start every male pov story I write with a reference to their jockstrap.

Why ever not?