Why is LW category so hard to please?

[GuiltyCowboy]

Instead, they comprise two or more groups of completely incompatible readers

I wonder if these two incompatible sets of readers could be reconciled with the kinds of tricks Nabokov uses in Lolita?

The anti-heroine is already dead when the story starts, and received her comeuppance before her death - thus satisfying the need for moral outrage right at the start, leaving the reader free to enjoy the transgressions to come…transgressions for which she, a charming, attractive woman, feels guilty, transgressions she has tried desperately to overcome, and who gets her way through coincidence rather than active skullduggery, and whose victim is largely unsympathetic etc etc.

The LW category leaves me completely cold so I’ve never ventured in there myself. Just wondering if there’s a way of making both types of reader happy…

 

[SimonDoom]

I wonder if these two incompatible sets of readers could be reconciled with the kinds of tricks Nabokov uses in Lolita?

The anti-heroine is already dead when the story starts, and received her comeuppance before her death - thus satisfying the need for moral outrage right at the start, leaving the reader free to enjoy the transgressions to come…transgressions for which she, a charming, attractive woman, feels guilty, transgressions she has tried desperately to overcome, and who gets her way through coincidence rather than active skullduggery, and whose victim is largely unsympathetic etc etc.

The LW category leaves me completely cold so I’ve never ventured in there myself. Just wondering if there’s a way of making both types of reader happy…

It's an interesting idea. But I think it might go over the head of most Literotica readers, especially those looking for the woman to get what they see as her just desserts. Her death has no relation to the relationship with Humbert Humbert, so it might not be satisfying to readers looking for "justice."

Are you suggesting that Humbert Humbert is a victim?

 

[RetroFan]

As I've mentioned before, I think some of the readers in LW are actually happy when authors post stories with themes they claim to hate, because they can get mad and post angry comments.

For example, some years back I read a LW story in which a middle-aged white couple are both - and unknown to each other - having an affair with the same young black man, with the gay male sex scenes (the husband the 'receiver' so to speak) described in very graphic detail.

The comment 'Get this fucking faggot shit off the internet!' was probably about the most polite and level-headed of the many it attracted, yet I got the impression that some readers were actually secretly pleased that someone posted a story they hated so much, rather than if a standard 'wife cheats, husband and wife divorce' story had been posted in its place.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

It's an interesting idea. But I think it might go over the head of most Literotica readers, especially those looking for the woman to get what they see as her just desserts. Her death has no relation to the relationship with Humbert Humbert, so it might not be satisfying to readers looking for "justice."

Are you suggesting that Humbert Humbert is a victim?

Sorry, it was a bit confusing what I wrote: I wasn’t referring to Dolores (and her death) at all; I was outlining the structure of a potential LW story in which the cheating wife is treated as Nabokov treats Humbert Humbert: charming, conflicted, already dead as the story begins, having received their just desserts, thus leaving the reader free to fully enjoy the woman’s infidelities.

Depending on how this character dies, it might even satisfy those readers keen to see her reconcile with her husband too.

 

[ChloeTzang]

To start off, I don’t think of myself as a great author, and my most recent story kind of proves that. I posted the first chapter of a new miniseries on LW and it got nuked almost immediately. It never really recovered. Other stories posted around the same time did much better, except for a couple that also got hit. I guess that’s just something that happens in this category.

LW readers are a mixed bag with mixed views and whatever you write is likely to get trashed by someone. Happens to us all. Some of my lowest ratings are in LW. Mind you, a couple of times I did write to push every LW button I could but even then there were lots of readers who liked - don't knock yourself over the ratings, it's a good categpry to build up followers who DO like your stories. Just decide which niche you're caterimg for and go for it.

I think part of the problem is that the plot doesn’t perfectly match what LW readers usually look for. The story is about a husband who wants to see his wife with another man, a total stranger. After an argument, he convinces her to go through with it, and he gets to choose the guy. The first chapter is short and really just sets things up. There’s a public handjob without a climax, then later she has sex with her husband that same night. After he falls asleep, she gets a text from the stranger and they start making plans to finish what they started the next day.

Ahhhh, not much sex explains the lack of reader interest. Alway remember, you have the first 50 words to grab your rader by the balls (or the pussy, depending) and hook them. So your first paragraph should be totally dedicated to ensuring your reader wants to read the rest of the page. Boring backstory or setup won't do it. Cut to the chase up front, pose a problem that needs an answer or an action that makes you want to find out what comes next. If it's a chapter story then that chapter HAS to grab the readers interest.

The husband wanting to see his wife with another man isn't the problem - that's a standard plot and there are a LOT of readers who like those. Without reading it, it sounds like mucho setup....

It’s written from the wife’s POV, which might also explain why it didn’t land.

Nah, almost ALL my stories are that POV. That's not the issue. Meale readers actually get into the female POV

What frustrates me is that a couple years ago I wrote a similar story in LW category. That one was about a wife getting blackmailed by her neighbor. I barely put any effort into it, just threw the draft up to see what would happen, and it actually did pretty well. This time I spent a good amount of time polishing the story, and it ended up performing worse.

I’m not here to whine about it though. I’m still going to finish the series, because I know there are readers out there who will enjoy it. It just made me realize how random posting on LW can be. Unless you’re posting some over-the-top misogynistic stuff, which always seems to find an audience, it really feels like a coin flip.

Sometimes it is a coin flip.

That being said, I’d really like to get better at this. Does anyone have advice on how to actually write a proper LW story or series that connects with readers?

Emotional involvememt. Write the characters to get your readers emotionally involved with the characters. Easy to say, hard to do - and that's a bit trite but that's one way. There are a lot of others but the best is always just tell a good story.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think there's just a subcategory of readers of that category that is more vocal about opposing stories of a certain KIND, rather than of a QUALITY, that they don't like.

Whatever their reasons, they are still harder to please. Even each isolated camp in LW is difficult to please. They have a very narrow band of what is acceptable in a story. I suppose if you pander to that narrow band (just as Romance writers tend to do to the narrow path paperback Romance expectations) then they are easy to please, maybe that is what you mean, but if you step outside of that ribbon thin band, you get your head ripped off.

Furthermore, statistically speaking anyways, it is not even close that LW is the hardest category to score well in.

 

[LargoKitt]

Ask Brian.

42

 

[TiberiusPrime]

And everyone knows that's a myth.

How to say you're alone and single without having to say you're alone and single.

 

[HordHolm]

I'm probably going to swim against the current here, and this will be a repeat of a comment I've made elsewhere (so apologies to all in on the vague off-chance that anyone remembers).

I have generally had a positive experience in LW. Admittedly, I only have two stories there, and it is true that in another category I would expect them to score much higher. The first story did attract a couple of mouth-breathers (but only a couple), and their negativity was far outweighed by the positive comments I received. I did receive the expected, "but why didn't they just get divorced?" comment, but that just makes me laugh (they get divorced = there's no story). And given it was loosely based on a true story there were certain boundaries I wanted to stay within. Anyway...

Earlier in the summer I published my second LW story. I have had nothing but neutral/positive feedback for this story. It is a story in which nobody is humiliated and no bitches are burnt. It involves consensual extra-marital sex by both husband and wife. Again, in another category I am certain it would be up around 4.7/4.8 rather than the 3.8 at which it is now hovering. But then, I knew going in the what the LW effect on scores would be. The positive comments I received for the story more than made up for the 1-bombs it received on publication.

@CherieSin - you ask how you can satisfy readers. I would argue that your main friend is quality: write the best quality story you can, and let the 1-bombs, and occasional nasty comment bounce off. You will find a readership, and the better your quality, the more that readership will appreciate you. You will be unlikely to get a red H, but it has been known. More to the point, though, you may build up a base of support.

 

[Robin_Starveling]

That being said, I’d really like to get better at this. Does anyone have advice on how to actually write a proper LW story or series that connects with readers?

My impression, judging by the plethora of grumpy, moralizing comments, is that the LW audience is more conservative and older than that of the other categories. Therefore, it’s reasonable to assume their reading preferences are not driven by sexual impulse.

I’m not sure whether this stems from marital trauma, misogyny, frustration from lack of sexual drive, or a mix of all those combined, but it seems their main interest lies in morals, justice, and restoring norms rather than bodily pleasures. I can’t possibly understand what would make anyone look, of all places, for morals on a sex site dedicated to fantasies driven mostly by sexual transgressions -- but it is what it is.

That said, and to add to @HordHolm above, just as many BTB stories manifest misogyny, many hotwife stories manifest misandry. This can be seen in the cartoonishly degrading depiction of the husband’s character. While the wife is portrayed as a strong, healthy sexual being who gets what she wants, the husband is reduced to a ridiculed shadow, destined to have the “honor” of licking his wife’s sloppy seconds. Most men won’t react well to this and will see it for what it is: a veiled agenda against them.

Positive, likeable protagonists are the key ingredient in any popular story. They don’t have to be unrealistically perfect, but they should at least be interesting and have a larger-than-life presence and charisma.

Good prevailing, wrongdoing having consequences, and a happy ending (or at least a bright prospect) are other ingredients that make for cross-category popular stories.

Any story that celebrates femininity and sexuality, while portraying a positive couple in a healthy relationship without degrading the male character, is likely to do well. Here’s one fine example: https://www.literotica.com/s/valentines-day-massage

Those who would say this is an old story that represents “other times” are probably the same ones with a hidden agenda against men.

I have to be honest here and admit that I started reading your LW story and lost interest midway. Your Mature series, OTOH, was much more appealing.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

To start off, I don’t think of myself as a great author, and my most recent story kind of proves that. I posted the first chapter of a new miniseries on LW and it got nuked almost immediately. It never really recovered. Other stories posted around the same time did much better, except for a couple that also got hit. I guess that’s just something that happens in this category.

I think part of the problem is that the plot doesn’t perfectly match what LW readers usually look for. The story is about a husband who wants to see his wife with another man, a total stranger. After an argument, he convinces her to go through with it, and he gets to choose the guy. The first chapter is short and really just sets things up. There’s a public handjob without a climax, then later she has sex with her husband that same night. After he falls asleep, she gets a text from the stranger and they start making plans to finish what they started the next day.

It’s written from the wife’s POV, which might also explain why it didn’t land. What frustrates me is that a couple years ago I wrote a similar story in LW category. That one was about a wife getting blackmailed by her neighbor. I barely put any effort into it, just threw the draft up to see what would happen, and it actually did pretty well. This time I spent a good amount of time polishing the story, and it ended up performing worse.

I’m not here to whine about it though. I’m still going to finish the series, because I know there are readers out there who will enjoy it. It just made me realize how random posting on LW can be. Unless you’re posting some over-the-top misogynistic stuff, which always seems to find an audience, it really feels like a coin flip.

That being said, I’d really like to get better at this. Does anyone have advice on how to actually write a proper LW story or series that connects with readers?

It is important to make the distinction between a chaptered story and a series.

Loving Wives readers appear far less tolerant of chaptered stories than readers in other categories. There are some successful series within the category, but those are complete stand-alone stories that share a common theme, not merely parts of a whole.

If you are going to publish pieces of a story, try to get all the pieces to publish as close together as possible.

 

[CherieSin]

It is important to make the distinction between a chaptered story and a series.

Loving Wives readers appear far less tolerant of chaptered stories than readers in other categories. There are some successful series within the category, but those are complete stand-alone stories that share a common theme, not merely parts of a whole.

If you are going to publish pieces of a story, try to get all the pieces to publish as close together as possible.

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too after reading stories in LW for years. Personally I lean more toward writing series than standalone pieces.

There are a few reasons for that. First, a standalone in my opinion really needs to be long. At least 20k words, often more. I love writing complex scenes, layering in details, building the world, setting the stage, and letting things slowly build. On the surface that sounds fine, but what makes me hesitate is the risk of rejection. It has already happened to me twice recently, and losing 40k words like that stings.

Second, I just can’t fit everything I want into 20k words. Even when I give myself limits, I go past them. It frustrates me, but that’s the way I write.

There’s more to it, but I won’t get into that now.

That’s why I prefer series. It lets me publish shorter chapters while still keeping the quality. I don’t have to worry about rewriting an entire novel if something goes wrong since each chapter stands on its own. That said, my latest part of the Mature series is almost 60k words and has been pending for three weeks I definitely broke my own rules with that one and I’m already fearing the worst.

Anyway, back to the main point. I plan to release the chapters quickly one after another. Pt. 2 should be out tomorrow, and the series will probably be six chapters at most. If it ever gets more attention than it has so far I might revisit it, but most likely once I’m done I’ll move on to something new.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think "hard to please" suggests "more discerning" or "applying higher standards." I don't think that's the case at all. I think there's just a subcategory of readers of that category that is more vocal about opposing stories of a certain KIND, rather than of a QUALITY, that they don't like. I've read many different Loving Wives stories of every type, I've read the comments, and I've read the comments to my own few Loving Wives stories. They absolutely are NOT more discerning than comments in other categories. Quite the contrary. The comments have nothing to do with quality. The nastiest, most vicious, and unhinged comments come from readers of that category. We may be quibbling over the definition of "hard to please," but I don't call that "hard to please." I call it intolerant.

You can play with semantics all you want, 'hard to please' is an expression stemming from the low scores and insane trolling that goes on there all the time.

For me, where this stands out is if you look at the same material in both the e-book market and pro porn. A cuck story that gets destroyed here will sell well and get decent reviews in the market and the comments on porn sites falls overwhelmingly under the "That's hot, wish my wife would do that to me" style.

Why is here different? Two words Anonymous & Free.

People need to set up accounts to buy e-books and even with a handle they review under, its still your real name and CC or Paypal info attached. You are not going to spew like a D-bag in that case. That and seeing they're spending a bit of money they're not going to buy things that has no appeal to them. Porn Hub and most other sites require a log in to comment and now with more and more verification to prove you're not a minor, so there is a ultimate trail to who you are, so again, the "Rape that bitch dead" comments are not going to show up. Going further, the comment moderation on many of those sites is a lot stricter, unlike here which further compounds the issue.

Loving Wives does not represent the consumer of that content in mass market, only here and for the reasons I stated, so maybe all these conversations should be limited to the intolerance encouraged by the way this site is set up. This is simply the lowest class of person being given free rein to hate,

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Yeah, I’ve noticed that too after reading stories in LW for years. Personally I lean more toward writing series than standalone pieces.

There are a few reasons for that. First, a standalone in my opinion really needs to be long. At least 20k words, often more. I love writing complex scenes, layering in details, building the world, setting the stage, and letting things slowly build. On the surface that sounds fine, but what makes me hesitate is the risk of rejection. It has already happened to me twice recently, and losing 40k words like that stings.

Second, I just can’t fit everything I want into 20k words. Even when I give myself limits, I go past them. It frustrates me, but that’s the way I write.

There’s more to it, but I won’t get into that now.

That’s why I prefer series. It lets me publish shorter chapters while still keeping the quality. I don’t have to worry about rewriting an entire novel if something goes wrong since each chapter stands on its own. That said, my latest part of the Mature series is almost 60k words and has been pending for three weeks I definitely broke my own rules with that one and I’m already fearing the worst.

Anyway, back to the main point. I plan to release the chapters quickly one after another. Pt. 2 should be out tomorrow, and the series will probably be six chapters at most. If it ever gets more attention than it has so far I might revisit it, but most likely once I’m done I’ll move on to something new.

By definition, a "chapter" doesn't stand on its own. It is a piece of a larger work.

It sounds to me what you are calling chapters are actually "episodes", which have a beginning, middle, and end.

These are fine, but my recommendation of publishing them as close together as possible still stands. In a few months, once all have been published, it won't make a difference, but in the early days after publishing, readers get annoyed having to wait for the next installment.

 

[CherieSin]

I have to be honest here and admit that I started reading your LW story and lost interest midway. Your Mature series, OTOH, was much more appealing.

That’s completely fine Everyone has different tastes and things they enjoy. Maybe a lot of readers felt the same way while going through the LW story, which just tells me I need to do a better job with future ones. I really appreciate you saying that though, and I’m glad you enjoyed the Mature series.

 

[CherieSin]

By definition, a "chapter" doesn't stand on its own. It is a piece of a larger work.

It sounds to me what you are calling chapters are actually "episodes", which have a beginning, middle, and end.

These are fine, but my recommendation of publishing them as close together as possible still stands. In a few months, once all have been published, it won't make a difference, but in the early days after publishing, readers get annoyed having to wait for the next installment.

Oh I know that. I just didn’t really put it into words the way I meant to. You’re right, and I was mistakenly calling it something it wasn’t. My bad.

 

[MiaBabe23]

I haven’t attempted to post anything for the LW category, so I’m not able to add the specific insights that others have.
However - I think it speaks huge volumes that there is a ‘Loving Wives’ category on Lit, and not a ‘Loving Husbands/ Boyfriend etc’, which your story probably would have been well received in
And from those I’ve read, personal pov, too many of the popular LW ones consist of vapid, two dimensional women who exist solely from the start to the end of the story, to satisfy whatever whim the husband has, and her enjoyment is of course gained entirely from his enjoyment
Those rating them presumably want more of the same
It’s a shame that yours wasn’t given the fair reading it no doubt deserved
And it makes me think we need a Loving Husband/ Boyf category

 

[iwatchus]

Furthermore, statistically speaking anyways, it is not even close that LW is the hardest category to score well in.

I usually go back and look at 8letters analysis from a few years ago, but I can't find that right now. My memory was that LW was in the lowest two or three average ratings. Another one I saw had them being the lowest percentage of H's. Do you have any good data for this?

 

[iwatchus]

Addendum I did find the old study by 8letters (here)

Illustrated had the lowest average rating at 3.12, but that is an oddball category and only had 3 submissions in his sample.

LW was second lowest at 3.37

Interracial (3.67) Erotic Horror (3.84) and Celebs/Fanfic (3.85) were the only others averaging below 4.

Illustrated had no H's, but LW was second at 3%

The same others (IR EH C/FF) were joined by NC/R in single digits. The average looks to be about 25%, although some categories were in the low 40's.

At least in that work, which is getting dated and you could pick on some on the methodology, LW is the second harshest category, second only to Illustrated, which had such a small sample size as to be meaningless. And the consensus seems to be that the community has gotten worse, not better, so it may well be worse than it was.

 

[Meekly_Anna]

I have to admit, I quite like reading in the LW category. I mean, he doesn't like to read a story where there's happy hatred?
However, most of the stories are either boring or stupid or both. Some guy comes home, his best friend/neighbour/wife's boss/brother and father in law/family dog fucks his wife, the guy gets divorced, meets another woman by chance, they fuck after a while and then they're happy.
How varied and exciting.
Then there's the variant where the wife secretly runs away, takes all the guy's money, takes the kids with her and moves in with her fucker, who is of course rich and adopts the kids, even though the guy is a much better father. Of course, the guy gets ripped off by some evil judge.
It's quite funny, but there are authors who write nothing else and the plot is so predictable. I think it would be better if the authors went to therapy.
OK, maybe I'm not the typical author here. I write very slowly and I like to lead my readers astray with the category. I think it's funny and I think you should have something to laugh about in a story. Even if it's a painful laugh.
My next but one story will definitely be in LW. Simply because of the nice feeling I get when readers pour their burning hatred and contempt on me in the comments column.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I've been publishing stories on LitE for five years. Of my 73 stories, 54 of them are in LW.

Six of my LW stories are rated over 4.0. Most of the others are between 3.0-4.0, with a five below 3.0.

Quality of writing and eroticism aside, in general, the LW audience prefers stories in which the husband is NOT a weak or passive victim watching the wife having extra-marital sex. Even a strong husband in charge who wants to just watch his wife with another man will be slammed as a weak cuck.

The husband should be portrayed as a strong, in-charge type who gets as much or more extra-marital sex as his wife. The wife can get her pleasure, but the husband needs to at least get as many or more extra partners.

That's tough to do if you are publishing your stories in a series. And if it's only about the husband wanting to watch his wife being fucked, then that story arc in general will likely average well below 4.

Of my six LW stories rated over 4, the closest I came to the "husband watches his wife being fucked" is in:
"A Dare at the Nude Resort"
"Husband watches his horny wife and her boy-toy in a restroom."

They are a swinger couple, and the husband dares his wife to seduce a younger man. Then he watches the other guy fuck her, and the husband gets "sloppy seconds" fucking her immediately after the first guy. The husband doesn't go down on her, and the other guy is very respectful of the husband. The end has the wife setting up a follow-up meeting for a week later, where she and the other guy's wife are going to do an FMF with the husband, and the other guy knows it's going to happen but can't be there due to his job.

So, in general, for successful, non-BTB LW stories you need strong, in-charge husbands, respectful loving wives, don't focus solely on the husband's voyeurism, have all other men respectful of the husband, and see that the husband gets at least as much (number wise) as the wife. And don't introduce other triggers such as inter-racial, BDSM, incest, or Bi-sexual male-on-male scenes which draw attacks from those subsets of readers who might hate them. One such small piece of the story will trigger a disproportionate negative response from the subsets of haters.

EDIT: When I say the husband gets the same amount of sex as the wife number wise, that means if they go to a party and the wife takes on five other men, then the husband must get five or six other women. There are 1-bombers who will blast the story if the husband is worn out after fucking a third or fourth woman. It's not realistic or fair. But that's what an author should expect with the LW audience.

 

[Robin_Starveling]

I have to admit, I quite like reading in the LW category. I mean, he doesn't like to read a story where there's happy hatred?
However, most of the stories are either boring or stupid or both. Some guy comes home, his best friend/neighbour/wife's boss/brother and father in law/family dog fucks his wife, the guy gets divorced, meets another woman by chance, they fuck after a while and then they're happy.
How varied and exciting.
Then there's the variant where the wife secretly runs away, takes all the guy's money, takes the kids with her and moves in with her fucker, who is of course rich and adopts the kids, even though the guy is a much better father. Of course, the guy gets ripped off by some evil judge.
It's quite funny, but there are authors who write nothing else and the plot is so predictable. I think it would be better if the authors went to therapy.
OK, maybe I'm not the typical author here. I write very slowly and I like to lead my readers astray with the category. I think it's funny and I think you should have something to laugh about in a story. Even if it's a painful laugh.
My next but one story will definitely be in LW. Simply because of the nice feeling I get when readers pour their burning hatred and contempt on me in the comments column.

Quite hilarious and true, but aim those witty arrows at any other category, and you’ll get even better results.

Vapidness, flatness, predictability, unreliability, recycled material... The sooner you drop the false pretense that writing here signals literary greatness, the better.

 

[Meekly_Anna]

Quite hilarious and true, but aim those witty arrows at any other category, and you’ll get even better results.

Vapidness, flatness, predictability, unreliability, recycled material... The sooner you drop the false pretense that writing here signals literary greatness, the better.

Oh, I know that I'm a shitty writer. I'm a bleedin' engineer and I dare say I'm not the worst.
I write because I like reading and if the reader has a good time reading I'm glad. I've been told to publish in humour but I don't think everyone would appreciate my humour, so why bother?

 

[SkyBubble]

And while you're at it, what is the meaning of life?

A Python movie!

 

[SkyBubble]

Reading this thread, I'm tempted to go into the LW category and vote 5 on the stories that got 1-bombed. I know you're not supposed to do that, but it's tempting, just to frustrate these idiots.