Why does anyone NEED an assault rifle?

[KimGordon67]

Not really a less biased source.....

LMAO - that's actual peer reviewed research conducted within a university - actually, HARVARD University. You may have heard of it? Not a gun lobby organisation citing itself. (I still haven't fact-checked My_I's infographic because I'm still waiting on him to answer my question about whether he considers it a reliable source or not. If he doesn't, I won't bother wasting my time.)

 

[KimGordon67]

LMAO - that's actual peer reviewed research conducted within a university - actually, HARVARD University. You may have heard of it? Not a gun lobby organisation citing itself. (I still haven't fact-checked My_I's infographic because I'm still waiting on him to answer my question about whether he considers it a reliable source or not. If he doesn't, I won't bother wasting my time.)

"The frequency of incidents involving DGU, and their effectiveness in providing safety and reducing crime is a controversial issue in gun politics and criminology" (Wiki entry on defensive gun use.) Basically, I don't really think either side can use the 'defence' argument with any degree of real certainty.

 

[KimGordon67]

The US constitution guarantees citizens the right to possess arms, however it does not specify what constitutes “arms.” Clearly, it was anticipated that the government which gives the right also has the authority to regulate the entire scope of “firearms” ownership by civilians.

I’ll be back later, I’m on my way to march with millions of other sane people.

Your problem here is that you're arguing with people who assume that 'rights' have extra-discursive objective existence. While I've heard some arguments for 'natural rights' that are pretty well made, I'm still not sure I'm convinced ... and those arguments certainly aren't in this thread. (Unfortunately the thread they were in appears to been deleted, I think as part of the Great Banning of 2017. I'm annoyed, because I had some good research in that thread which I haven't had the time or energy to replicate since.)

 

[BotanyBoy]

so yes, I guess in that sense I trust the state to protect the environment in which I live. Which it demonstrably does.

Looks like murders, assaults, rapes, robberies and even some gun violence happens there...just like everywhere.

I understand this may be difficult to understand if you don't live here, but I feel safe because I AM safe ... trust me, if there were high levels of gun ownership among the 'bad guys', I would know about it. This is what it's like to live in a culture were gun ownership isn't normalised.

Are you saying that nobody ever gets gunned down in your country?

Beat to death?

Stabbed?

Strangled?

Because you should let your government know they are wrong.

LMAO - that's actual peer reviewed research conducted within a university - actually, HARVARD University. You may have heard of it? Not a gun lobby organisation citing itself.

Harvard...a fucking HIVE of socialist, sjw's and 'progressive' leftist that openly LOATE free speech, gun rights, rights to privacy (except when woman getting abortion that one is absolute!), states rights, V8's and probably Apple pie too.

The ONLY campus in the US that might be more radically and openly biased to leftism/anti-civil rights is UC Berkley, and not by much.

No they are a bunch of anti-gun left wing academics largely funded by anti-gun politicians and bureaucrats...the other side of that gun lobby citing itself.

Basically, I don't really think either side can use the 'defence' argument with any degree of real certainty.

That's because certainty is an impossible standard.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Also you have to consider individuals.

Certainly some are more capable than others.

Levels of training, fitness and experience in these situations all play a factor.

The 45 y/o retired Navy SEAL with 10 combat tours + another 12 years worth of some of the most intensive training at the professional combat operator level is more likely to effectively defend himself, loved ones and/or property than say.....the 45 y/o soccer dad or cubicle monkey who's fired a few boxes off and took a weekend class from the retired SEAL.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

In Russo-America, anything that is peer-reviewed, vetted, fact-checked and supported by research = "left" and "biased."

RT's arm in the US, Fox News, has been beating that drum for 39 years.

But speaking of bias.

WHat you need to know about the 2nd Amendment if you don't already is that for 200+ years no gun control law or restriction or ban has EVER been ruled as unconstitutional in the US until 2008. The 2nd Amendment has NEVER been interpreted as supporting individual gun ownership until then.

That all changed with a 5-4 decision of the SCOTUS led by a few extremely biased, right wing judges, particularly Antonin Scalia, who decided to hand a talking point to his friends in the NRA, overturning hundreds of years of precedent. It came with vociferous and violent dissenting opinions, all of which are available and can be found online.

The point being: The "2nd Amendment" argument for the gun nuts is tissue thin, highly debated, and nowhere near the absolute fact certainty Bitter Boy claims it to be. The massive pro-gun judges of the conservative courts handed down a BIASED interpretation which the gun nuts have been clinging to like pieces of poop in a swirling toilet ever since.

That's Fat Tony on the right:

http://images.law.com/image/EM/NLJ/Scalia-Hunting-Article-201602181029.jpg

Seeing Bitter Boy complain of "bias" from the left is thus ironic. He needs to shove it.

LMAO - that's actual peer reviewed research conducted within a university - actually, HARVARD University. You may have heard of it? Not a gun lobby organisation citing itself. (I still haven't fact-checked My_I's infographic because I'm still waiting on him to answer my question about whether he considers it a reliable source or not. If he doesn't, I won't bother wasting my time.)

 

[coachdb18]

Looks like murders, assaults, rapes, robberies and even some gun violence happens there...just like everywhere.



Are you saying that nobody ever gets gunned down in your country?

Beat to death?

Stabbed?

Strangled?

Because you should let your government know they are wrong.





Harvard...a fucking HIVE of socialist, sjw's and 'progressive' leftist that openly LOATE free speech, gun rights, rights to privacy (except when woman getting abortion that one is absolute!), states rights, V8's and probably Apple pie too.

The ONLY campus in the US that might be more radically and openly biased to leftism/anti-civil rights is UC Berkley, and not by much.

No they are a bunch of anti-gun left wing academics largely funded by anti-gun politicians and bureaucrats...the other side of that gun lobby citing itself.



That's because certainty is an impossible standard.

Sorry, had to laugh till my Pepsi blew out of my nose at the thought of a Harvard study being ANYTHING but ultra-left wing... the only thing about that din of thoughtlessness is that its on the wrong coast, but the zealots won't mind that slight oversight.

 

[phrodeau]

The only education some people value is gun knowledge.

 

[coachdb18]

Anyone who thinks they are safe because they live in a 'safe culture' is delusional. The very last thought of a crime victim who is about to be murdered is 'I sure could use a gun right now'.

 

[KimGordon67]

Anyone who thinks they are safe because they live in a 'safe culture' is delusional. The very last thought of a crime victim who is about to be murdered is 'I sure could use a gun right now'.

... and yet I NEVER thought that when I fought off the guy who attacked me in the street, or when I woke up to find some dude in my house in the middle of the night, or when my boyfriend of the time gave me a black eye.

I am, however, extremely glad the angry and not-very-sensible guys I grew up with didn't have ready access to guns.

 

[Gamine67]

Looks like murders, assaults, rapes, robberies and even some gun violence happens there...just like everywhere.



Are you saying that nobody ever gets gunned down in your country?

Beat to death?

Stabbed?

Strangled?

Because you should let your government know they are wrong.





Harvard...a fucking HIVE of socialist, sjw's and 'progressive' leftist that openly LOATE free speech, gun rights, rights to privacy (except when woman getting abortion that one is absolute!), states rights, V8's and probably Apple pie too.

The ONLY campus in the US that might be more radically and openly biased to leftism/anti-civil rights is UC Berkley, and not by much.

No they are a bunch of anti-gun left wing academics largely funded by anti-gun politicians and bureaucrats...the other side of that gun lobby citing itself.



That's because certainty is an impossible standard.

Science is real.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Sorry, had to laugh till my Pepsi blew out of my nose at the thought of a Harvard study being ANYTHING but ultra-left wing... the only thing about that din of thoughtlessness is that its on the wrong coast, but the zealots won't mind that slight oversight.

In Kim's defense she's not from here.

But yea, Harvard has become little more than a propaganda outlet.

In Russo-America, anything that is peer-reviewed, vetted, fact-checked and supported by research = "left" and "biased."

Nope..just the "peer reviewed, vetted, fact checked" bullshit that comes from a (D) funded and supported hive of progressivism.

The 2nd Amendment has NEVER been interpreted as supporting individual gun ownership until then.

Because it's rather plainly stated and a ruling has never been needed until idiots like yourself tried to pretend "the right of the people" didn't mean an individual right but a privilege for the government.

And you dumb ass's got spanked for it, further solidifying it...not only is it an amendment but now it's got a SCOTUS ruling behind it.

The point being: The "2nd Amendment" argument for the gun nuts is tissue thin, highly debated, and nowhere near the absolute fact certainty Bitter Boy claims it to be. The massive pro-gun judges of the conservative courts handed down a BIASED interpretation which the gun nuts have been clinging to like pieces of poop in a swirling toilet ever since.

Nobody said it was absolute fact you lying stain....why do you feel the need to lie?

It's not a biased interpretation, it's consistent with both the wording and precedence for "the right of the people".

The only bias was the anti-gun folks who were pretending "the right of the people" meant "government privilege" so they could push unconstitutional gun control laws.

Seeing Bitter Boy complain of "bias" from the left is thus ironic. He needs to shove it.

It is what it is.....and it's not ironic it's a verifiable fact.

Make me...ohhhh right you can't just like you can't take mah gunz!!!

M'uricuh you commie stain!!

 

[BotanyBoy]

Science is real.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

Hi I'm a biologist and a chemist!!

I understand that science is real.

Doesn't mean partisan driven and funded universities don't put out politically biased bullshit on a regular basis.

Even and especially the most prestigious (well funded) ones....because MONEY.

 

[phrodeau]

Hi I'm a biologist and a chemist!!

I understand that science is real.

Doesn't mean partisan driven and funded universities don't put out politically biased bullshit on a regular basis.

Even and especially the most prestigious (well funded) ones....because MONEY.

While we're shooting messengers, that link from post 340 is straight from Vici Media Group, a pure Republican operation.

 

[Blue]

Looks like murders, assaults, rapes, robberies and even some gun violence happens there...just like everywhere.

Are you saying that nobody ever gets gunned down in your country?

Beat to death?

Stabbed?

Strangled?

Because you should let your government know they are wrong.

You know what frequency is right?

Why won't any of the conservatives here address the fact in our evil commie take-yer-guns European countries our murder rates per capita are all vastly lower than that of the US.

People get beat to death and gunned down and stabbed and strangled here all the time, but we still have less than a quarter as many deaths p/100k due to crime than in the USA. Why do you think that is? You called banning guns the "prohibition against self defence" and yet we are vastly safer here than over there. Our self defence is actually superior to that of a society where almost everybody is armed, because crime is less deadly.

Nobody ever thinks it's going to happen to them.

But it happens.....so are you ready to secure yourself and your loved one should an armed threat present itself?

Or are you relying on government prohibition of guns and the police to protect you?

Yes I will rely on the government prohibition on guns and the police to protect me. Because they DO. More so than the services in the US are able to protect their citizens.

Why can't you just admit, at least to yourself, there's a flaw in your reasoning?

 

[coachdb18]

You know what frequency is right?

Why won't any of the conservatives here address the fact in our evil commie take-yer-guns European countries our murder rates per capita are all vastly lower than that of the US.

People get beat to death and gunned down and stabbed and strangled here all the time, but we still have less than a quarter as many deaths p/100k due to crime than in the USA. Why do you think that is? You called banning guns the "prohibition against self defence" and yet we are vastly safer here than over there. Our self defence is actually superior than a society where almost everybody is armed.
Why can't you just admit, at least to yourself, there's a flaw in your reasoning?

I'll call you out on your bullshit, with the real facts to show that the EU is NOT safer, and is in fact more crime prone than the US....

https://i.imgur.com/SpY8P8a.jpg

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/country-and-state-rankings-Murders-Casualties-MPS.png

 

[KimGordon67]

I'll call you out on your bullshit, with the real facts to show that the EU is NOT safer, and is in fact more crime prone than the US....

https://i.imgur.com/SpY8P8a.jpg

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/country-and-state-rankings-Murders-Casualties-MPS.png

Coach again throws out stats without bothering to ensure they really support his argument.

 

[Blue]

I'll call you out on your bullshit, with the real facts to show that the EU is NOT safer, and is in fact more crime prone than the US....

Oh my god can you please just be truthful for once instead of repeating this dishonest nonsense.

This table shows, in more complex manners, the rate at which people are killed in various countries as a result of mass shootings. With the US being one of the lowest.
I'll go out on a limb and believe that chart is factual. Great, I'm less likely to be killed in a mass shooting in the USA than various European countries.

You haven't called me on anything because you haven't addressed the fact that I'm still 5x more likely to be murdered overall in the US. Your country still has almost 50% more murders every year than in China, with something like 5-6x your population! That's not something you can argue around because it's just true.

Why do you think people are drastically more likely to be killed due to crime in the US?

 

[KimGordon67]

Coach again throws out stats without bothering to ensure they really support his argument.

Here's Nationmaster data - a site Coach relies on often. The most relevant stat is pretty much at the bottom. The murder rate in the US is 4x that of the UK. (I don't know why he was using EU figures, when Blue clearly said the UK ... possibly he doesn't understand they're different places?)

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh my god can you please just be truthful for once instead of repeating this dishonest nonsense.

This table shows, in more complex manners, the rate at which people are killed in various countries as a result of mass shootings. With the US being one of the lowest.
I'll go out on a limb and believe that chart is factual. Great, I'm less likely to be killed in a mass shooting in the USA than various European countries.

You haven't called me on anything because you haven't addressed the fact that I'm still 5x more likely to be murdered overall in the US. Your country still has almost 50% more murders every year than in China, with something like 5-6x your population! That's not something you can argue around because it's just true.

Why do you think people are drastically more likely to be killed due to crime in the US?

I don't think he's being deliberately dishonest - I've seen a fair few examples now of Coach just fundamentally misunderstanding how statistics work.

 

[BotanyBoy]

While we're shooting messengers, that link from post 340 is straight from Vici Media Group, a pure Republican operation.

And probably pushing it's bullshit too....I don't really care.

Why won't any of the conservatives here address the fact in our evil commie take-yer-guns European countries our murder rates per capita are all vastly lower than that of the US.

IDK you should ask one of them.

Any conservatives want to tackle that shit?

People get beat to death and gunned down and stabbed and strangled here all the time,

That sucks for them.

I don't put up with that shit.

Our self defence is actually superior to that of a society where almost everybody is armed, because crime is less deadly.

Your SOCIETAL defense is superior...your self defense capabilities at the individual level is not.

Yes I will rely on the government prohibition on guns and the police to protect me. Because they DO. More so than the services in the US are able to protect their citizens.

Good for you, keep believing that.

I know for a fact mine not only can't but won't.....so I take responsibility for my own security.

Shit if no one see's it...I don't even call the cops.

Why can't you just admit, at least to yourself, there's a flaw in your reasoning?

Because you're operating on the erroneous assumption that there is a flaw in my reasoning.

Different reasoning =/= flawed reasoning.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

The past = sad trombone:

http://images.law.com/image/EM/NLJ/Scalia-Hunting-Article-201602181029.jpg

 

[Hypoxia]

Oh my god can you please just be truthful for once instead of repeating this dishonest nonsense.

Relevant one-liners:

Figures don't lie but liars figure.

1+1= 3, for large enough values of 1.

Fresh-picked cherries are the sweetest.

My stats are bigger than your stats.

The details are there somewhere.

Breitbart wouldn't lie to me.

 

[JackLuis]

Maybe if we executed the shooters with their own guns, things would change?

 

[Hypoxia]

Maybe if we executed the shooters with their own guns, things would change?

After they're force-fed the flesh of their victims, sure. Kill what you eat. Eat what you kill. It's the law.