When reproductive rights clash

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
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Jul 29, 2000
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In 1992 the Supreme Court in the US decided, 5 to 4, on a portion of Casey v. Planned Parenthood. The wife does not have to inform her husband if she intends to have an abortion.

Why is this right? Why is this wrong? Is there any way for a woman's reproductive rights to compromise with the man's, if it's of the opposing view?

Let's just please not get into the old pro-life vs. pro-choice fight, okay?
 
I would agree that it is her right not to inform.

Why? For the same reason that he does not have the right to force her to have an abortion or not and also for the same reason that two married people have a right to privacy between each other even though they are married.

This is not about abortion. It is about right to privacy, I think.
 
The only way I could see that as a realistic option is if the woman was pregnant by someone other than her husband. If the woman wanted to abort her husbands child behind his back he shouldnt be with her anyway. Either way he made a bad "choice" in a partner.
 
I agree with riff.

My body is MY body. It doesn't belong to anyone else, none of its functions belong to anyone else, and none of its by-products belong to anyone else regardless of any other words you throw at the issue.

I have the basic human right to make all the decisions regarding what's happening to my body, inside and out, in the same way that everyone else gets to decide about thier body.

This issue is about self-determination and privacy no matter what else is involved.

Period.
 
One example of "Why this is right?"

A few years back, while doing some volunteer work in a hospital, I met a woman who was 32 ... she had just delivered her 13th child.

She was so starving for adult companionship, she had a grasp on my hand and wouldn't let go. She explained that I was the first adult to talk to her in over a year ... saying that she had no friends because nobody wanted to visit her house because of the noise and chaos that went with her large family. Her relatives stayed away, as well ... not willing to give her the slightest help.

Her husband was an ex-seminarian. HE didn't believe in birth control. Of course, HE didn't stay around much either ... only long enough to change his clothes after work and head out to some other nightly social function, leaving her alone with the chores of upbringing. He said he "didn't like the sound of children".

Not only was she lonely, but she was ashamed of everything about herself. She said to me, "You must think that all I do is lay around having sex all my life!" I assured her that I didn't.
 
Does the fact that half of the aborted material belongs to him have any bearing? What if he wanted a child desperately and she didn't?
 
Even if he knew, he doesn't have a say anyhow...

...no matter *how* desperately he wants a child.

A man cannot force a woman to have, abort, or keep a baby...
 
The male isn't carrying the child in his body. Would I personally be offended? If it was my child and I was married to the mother- there would be grave trust issues involved here. It's not about the right to abortion- it's her right not to inform.

What if she got pregnant from an extramarital affair that was an over-and-done-with fling? Somethings are better left unsaid. Think about that. Telling might create more harm than good.
 
cymbidia said:
I agree with riff.

My body is MY body. It doesn't belong to anyone else, none of its functions belong to anyone else, and none of its by-products belong to anyone else regardless of any other words you throw at the issue.

I have the basic human right to make all the decisions regarding what's happening to my body, inside and out, in the same way that everyone else gets to decide about thier body.

This issue is about self-determination and privacy no matter what else is involved.

Period.
Your body is indeed your body, just as my body is mine. I resent that the government forces me to wear a seatbelt, After all its my body right? Any spouse male or female who would make a decision of such magnitude without consulting their partner is deceiving their partner. What kind of relationship is that?
 
DAMN! Hit the wrong button before finishing

Originally started by the Hit The Wrong Button Dummy

One example of "Why this is right?"

A few years back, while doing some volunteer work in a hospital, I met a woman who was 32 ... she had just delivered her 13th child.

She was so starving for adult companionship, she had a grasp on my hand and wouldn't let go. She explained that I was the first adult to talk to her in over a year ... saying that she had no friends because nobody wanted to visit her house because of the noise and chaos that went with her large family. Her relatives stayed away, as well ... not willing to give her the slightest help.

Her husband was an ex-seminarian. HE didn't believe in birth control. Of course, HE didn't stay around much either ... only long enough to change his clothes after work and head out to some other nightly social function, leaving her alone with the chores of upbringing. He said he "didn't like the sound of children".

Not only was she lonely, but she was ashamed of everything about herself. She said to me, "You must think that all I do is lay around having sex all my life!" I assured her that I didn't. Then she told me that she had only had sex ONCE the year before (as if that mattered to me).

I asked her why she didn't take the pill? or have her tubes tied? ... she said, "My husband won't allow it."

When her husband came to the hospital to see her, she asked him "Did you see the baby?" He replied, "No, probably looks like all the rest." Then he told her that his brother (recently released from a mental hospital) was watching the children while she was in the hospital. She was hoping to have a couple of days rest before going back to the drudgery; but, she pulled herself out of bed, got dressed, found her doctor to discharge her, and went home.

This is a little off subject - but a harsh example of Why a woman should have control over her own body.
 
if it is his child then he has the right to know for the reason while yes she may be carrying the potential life in her body, without his help that would never happen. The "it my body its my choice" debate is not, in my humblest of opinion, a viable argument here. Marriage is a partnership, and in any legal partnership the greater of the whole outways any sum. If applying the womans reproductive rights over the husbands right to knowledge, we are setting a precedent that can be carried over into business. Lets say a man and a woman own a coffee shop. The man decides to boost profits by laundering money without the knowledge of his partner, let alone her permission. Finally the feds catch up to them and while the woman probably would not serve time, she would be damaged by her partners decision. Any decision reached by a part of a whole affects, in most cases, negatively the other party or parties. Bottom line, I as the potential childs father, has a right to know what is going on with that fetus, especially if it is my wife's body. Just as she has the right to know what is going on with my body, based on a busines model of partnership.
 
The decision should remain hers alone.

I can't imagine living in a country where the courts could force a woman to carry a child against her will.
 
He gave her the genetic material.
It was useless for procreation without her and her egg involved.

It doesn't matter if he wanted the child desperately. If he was unsure she wanted a child, he shouldn't have been sowing his seed, so to speak, in that field. If he was so desperate for a child, he should have found someone who shared his feeling on that issue. surely all one has to do ask. none of us is going to claim to desperately want children - and then choose abortion capriciously when preganacy occurs. It's not a thing any of us does for revenge or with malicious intentions. Get real.

In such a case, those involved were at odds on the issue of children - and he shouldn't have been trying to impregnate someone who wasn't sure she wanted to be a mother. If it mattered so tremendously to him, he should have been trying to find **mother-material** for the desperately-desired child, not a good fuck or a pretty face or whatever criteria he was using.

No one lies about wanting kids.
No one says, "C'mere big boy, get me pregnant you big stud, i want to be your baby-machine, whip it out now daddy" unless they're (1) insane or (2) crazy or (3) tetched in the head or (4) want to get pregnant.

Her body is her body.
Always.
Forever.

Nothing else is remotely correct or morally defensible in this matter.

It's her decision what happens to her body - and that will always include how to handle her pregnancy.
 
p.s.

A man doesn't need to inform his wife if he is getting a vasectomy.

Why don't we hear about women trying to invade the reproductive rights of men?
 
KillerMuffin said:
Does the fact that half of the aborted material belongs to him have any bearing? What if he wanted a child desperately and she didn't?
Not in todays society. Lets say a women gets pregnant. She decides to keep the baby. The father says " I dont want a baby" She says tough. Im having it and your going to pay me child support. Or she says Im having an abortion, and he says " I will raise the child". She tells him Im having an abortion and you cant stop me. Either way he has no choice in the matter.
 
bored1 said:
Any spouse male or female who would make a decision of such magnitude without consulting their partner is deceiving their partner. What kind of relationship is that?
I agree: it's most definitely a fucked-up-beyond-belief relationship that would have either of the partners do such a thing. I hope i'm never ever be part of such a relationship, andi hope i never known anyone who's part of such a relationship.

Still...

Bottom line...

It is her right to decide for herself on all issues that relate to her body.
 
KillerMuffin said:
Does the fact that half of the aborted material belongs to him have any bearing? What if he wanted a child desperately and she didn't?

Isn't this the "crux of the problem"?

"Even if he knew, he doesn't have a say anyhow...

...no matter *how* desperately he wants a child.

A man cannot force a woman to have, abort, or keep a baby..."


Then in fairness, why should he be forced to support one? Because he accepted the responsibility when when he came, you say? Seems she accepted the same responsibility when she "spread her legs", no?

Why shouldn't a woman be held resonsible for the consequences of her sexual acts the same as a man?

Rhumb:confused:
 
IF it is a right, then she can do as she pleases.

Contrary to popular opinion, you CANNOT do as you please with your body. Prostitution is illegal in most places. You cannot commit suicide legally in most states. You cannot subject your body to certain medical procedures legally. You cannot ingest, or even posses, certain substances into your body. So where is all this "It's my body" crap coming from?

Ishmael
 
cymbidia said:

Her body is her body.
Always.
Forever.

Nothing else is remotely correct or morally defensible in this matter.

It's her decision what happens to her body - and that will always include how to handle her pregnancy.
nothing else is? what if he is forced due to an emergency to make a decision I would hope I never am forced to due again (and thankfully in my case, they both lived). What if she is lying in the hospital and the only way to save her is risking the viability of the fetus, or worse forcing the abortion of the fetus in say the early third trimester in order to secure the safety of his wife? In that case, it is definately not her choice, for she is not able to coherently make that decision. Just curious, thats all.
 
bored1 said:
Not in todays society. Lets say a women gets pregnant. She decides to keep the baby. The father says " I dont want a baby" She says tough. Im having it and your going to pay me child support. Or she says Im having an abortion, and he says " I will raise the child". She tells him Im having an abortion and you cant stop me. Either way he has no choice in the matter.
You're right. Totally.

This stuff is harsh and wrong.

The fathers in these cases are being wronged, morally.

However, bottom line, if one does not know how one's partner feels about getting pregnant, one shouldn't be fucking around with them.

If you get someone pregnant - or you end up pregnant - with or without a marriage document between you, all bets are off. It's a new ballgame.

For women, to have to go through pregnancy and then bear that child is something that will change us forever, whether or not we keep the child, whether or not we want the child, whether or not we ache for the child. Forever and ever and ever and ever and ever, we will be someone's mother. The responsibility is neverending and it's awesome beyond belief.

The father of that potential child may or may not be there, may or may not give a flying fuck, may or may not be asshole material with regard to being a father. The father of what could become a child participates in its begetting with the grunt and thrust of orgasm. That's all.

The male partner in this could walk away.
The female partner cannot.
It is hers to choose whether or not she wishes to allow the pregnancy to continue. Always. Beyond any other words. Betond any other considerations.

It is her body. Not his. Not the state's.

Hers.
Therefore, it's her decision.
 
Ishmael said:
IF it is a right, then she can do as she pleases.

Contrary to popular opinion, you CANNOT do as you please with your body. Prostitution is illegal in most places. You cannot commit suicide legally in most states. You cannot subject your body to certain medical procedures legally. You cannot ingest, or even posses, certain substances into your body. So where is all this "It's my body" crap coming from?

Ishmael

Yes, you CAN. You can prostitute your body. You can ingest drugs. You have the choice. And, it is done, daily. You, simply, must pay the consequences in doing so.

The "It's my body crap" comes from not having sole rights to anything for centuries. A woman's body was, often, all she posessed. And, sadly, women lost posession to men, in many situations and cultures. Would you want someone controlling your bodily functions?
 
Well, I guess I am missing the point.

I thought it was about her right not to inform him. :)
 
RhumbRunner13 said:


Then in fairness, why should he be forced to support one?

Anybody that's done it knows that raising a child requires more than financial support, I can't imagine trying to tend to the needs of a child alone. Like one of my favorite quotes goes, it's like being grounded for eighteen years. My feeling is that if the father is not willing to provide the non-monetary support that a child so desperately needs, take the bastard's money. It's not enough, but it's something.
 
Ishmael said:
Contrary to popular opinion, you CANNOT do as you please with your body. Prostitution is illegal in most places. You cannot commit suicide legally in most states. You cannot subject your body to certain medical procedures legally. You cannot ingest, or even posses, certain substances into your body. So where is all this "It's my body" crap coming from?
All the "it's my body" crap is coming from the non-illegal substances side of the fence.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

We're not talking having illegal procedures performed on oneself here - we're talking the right to self-determination with regard to legal medical practices.

It's not the same thing.
brokenbrainwave said:
what if he is forced due to an emergency to make a decision I would hope I never am forced to due again (and thankfully in my case, they both lived). What if she is lying in the hospital and the only way to save her is risking the viability of the fetus, or worse forcing the abortion of the fetus in say the early third trimester in order to secure the safety of his wife? In that case, it is definately not her choice, for she is not able to coherently make that decision. Just curious, thats all.
If you have a legal bond with your partner and they are incapacitated in the manner you've indicated then of course you have the perfectly justified and legal right to decide for them that which you would not in ordinary circumstances.

We're not talking about that here, though.

We're talking about home pregnancy tests and tears and shock and not having to quit the dream job.

We're talking about rape victims.

We're talking about 18 year olds in thier first year of college.

We're talking about any woman, anywhere, who suddenly finds herself thrust into the possibility of being mother when she does not want to be a mother for whatever reason.

Again, forever, without hesitation: it is her right to choose in this matter this for herself and without regard for the wishes of anyone else. It is her body.
 
raindancer said:


Yes, you CAN. You can prostitute your body. You can ingest drugs. You have the choice. And, it is done, daily. You, simply, must pay the consequences in doing so.

The "It's my body crap" comes from not having sole rights to anything for centuries. A woman's body was, often, all she posessed. And, sadly, women lost posession to men, in many situations and cultures. Would you want someone controlling your bodily functions?

Bullshit. Women have performed, and have had performed on them abortions for centuries. Legal or not. The same with birth control, although todays drugs are far more effective than the old herbal varities.

Anything that is against the law to do with your body, puts you outside the law and is defacto proof that the state has taken control of that bodily choice.

This is equally true for both men and women. Not a gender issue in the least.

Ishmael
 
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