When John Kerry says he is against gay marriage...

[Fawkin'Injun]

Is he telling the truth?

From what ya'll know of the subject.

This straight guy thinks he's lying and hence not presidential material...

Is he lying to us or to you or does it even matter?

Is this acceptable for my first visit here?

 

[Pookie]

Is he telling the truth?

From what ya'll know of the subject.

This straight guy thinks he's lying and hence not presidential material...

Is he lying to us or to you or does it even matter?

Is this acceptable for my first visit here?

Kerry says he's against same-sex marriage. Why do you think he's lying about that? Is he not "Presidential material" because you think he's lying, or because you think he really does support same-sex marriage?

 

[Cigan]

I'm gonna get in trouble for this post I just know it. I personally am glad Kerry is against gay marriage and here's why.

He's for civil unions. Now I know the whole shtick about how separate is never equal and all that jazz, and I agree. And I am for gay marriage eventually, and hell if I could wake up tommorow and BOOM gay marriage that would be excessively cool. But it doesn't work that way. With the Lawrence ruling, and the Mass rulings the conservatives are circling their wagons at lightnight speeds, and while I don't think that they have the momentum to pass the amendment of doom, I also am not naieve enough to just not worry about it. A lot more people support civil unions than marriage, and it has been my experience that social change is best made in small steps so everyone (ok just the social conservatives) can adjust. If civil unions become the norm they won't be equal, but once people are used to them when a case shows up that says "look this is bullshit we should have full marriage" people are gonna look around and scratch their heads and wonder "what's the point of having it with a different name anyway?", because they will have had time to get comfortable with the absurdity of the idea of "civil unions" being ok but marriage not being. However, until the moderate conservatives have time to outgrow their paranoia there is a heavy risk of backlash, and I'm much happier with a strong supporter of civil unions (which Kerry's official stance is he is for them) than a strong supporter of gay marriage in the white house.

 

[deezire1900]

I personally am glad Kerry is against gay marriage and here's why.

Well put Cigan!

I use to think all or nothing, now I am happy with the progess. I use to say...never in my life time, now I know it will all happen before I die.

My feeling has always been, as the generations die off we make progress.

(except the baby boomers, they seem to have been one of the most excepting, and changing generations)

Deezire

 

[College_geek]

I personally am glad Kerry is against gay marriage and here's why.

Well put Cigan!

I agree. That's a very good point. It would be better to have half and then work from there than have nothing at all.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Why is it when I say something, everyone is a shit to me, but when someone else repeats it almost word for word, people agree with them?

 

[Pookie]

Why is it when I say something, everyone is a shit to me, but when someone else repeats it almost word for word, people agree with them?

Where did this happen at? What post is almost word for word with one of your own?

 

[69forever]

Alright...I guess I weigh in on the side of making progress in the face of hysterical backlash. While principle says all or nothing...I've come to learn that once you lose something, it's next to impossible to get it back. A constitutional amendment against same sex marriage would take decades to reverse.

I believe Kerry to be a honest man...for a politician. Have known him from the days of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Hell, in '71 he fired his medals at the same White House he is now looking to occupy. He has principles...pragmatic, yes. Will he sell us out after the election? Cann't say for sure.

In all honesty...GLBT politics take a back seat to seeing Bush defeated. Any progress made is gravy. I'll take the heat for that. But the simple fact is the current administration is responsible for the largest raping of the American people ever seen. And the man is a religious fanatic, who would take us to the brink and beyond...'cause he believes God is on his side.

 

[Pookie]

Alright...I guess I weigh in on the side of making progress in the face of hysterical backlash. While principle says all or nothing...I've come to learn that once you lose something, it's next to impossible to get it back. A constitutional amendment against same sex marriage would take decades to reverse.

I believe Kerry to be a honest man...for a politician. Have known him from the days of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Hell, in '71 he fired his medals at the same White House he is now looking to occupy. He has principles...pragmatic, yes. Will he sell us out after the election? Cann't say for sure.

In all honesty...GLBT politics take a back seat to seeing Bush defeated. Any progress made is gravy. I'll take the heat for that. But the simple fact is the current administration is responsible for the largest raping of the American people ever seen. And the man is a religious fanatic, who would take us to the brink and beyond...'cause he believes God is on his side.

I think if Bush could have his way, we would be locked in the proverbial closet forever, out of sight of him and his "friends".

I don't think Kerry will do anything to stop same-sex marriages if he is elected. Bush has already attempted to do just that. I wish Kerry had more backbone to speak out against discrimination, but I know he's dealing people that would use it against him ... and we stand to lose much more with Bush than we ever will with Kerry.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Where did this happen at? What post is almost word for word with one of your own?

What Cigan posted is very similar to what I have posted in the other thread concerning gay marriage. I thought that was obvious. Guess not. The fact is, people react differently to the same thing based on whether I say it or someone else does.

 

[69forever]

Why is it when I say something, everyone is a shit to me, but when someone else repeats it almost word for word, people agree with them?

I have never seen other people qoute you agreeing or posting similar positions that were agreed on by others here!

Get real.

 

[69forever]

I think if Bush could have his way, we would be locked in the proverbial closet forever, out of sight of him and his "friends".

I don't think Kerry will do anything to stop same-sex marriages if he is elected. Bush has already attempted to do just that. I wish Kerry had more backbone to speak out against discrimination, but I know he's dealing people that would use it against him ... and we stand to lose much more with Bush than we ever will with Kerry.

If Bush and his cronies had their way we would be slaves to the rich and fodder for his Holy War. I believe in evil in the hearts of men, not just greed, but true evil...and this man (Bush) is evil incarnate.

Kerry will not hurt us. Bush scares the shit out of the entire rational thinking world.

 

[Pookie]

What Cigan posted is very similar to what I have posted in the other thread concerning gay marriage. I thought that was obvious. Guess not. The fact is, people react differently to the same thing based on whether I say it or someone else does.

Quote the post then. We'll compare and see just how close it really is.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Are you challenging me? I can't believe how you insist that I am immature yet you say such childish things as that.

It's obvious what I'm talking about. I'm not going to bother to hand you all something you can very easily find for yourselves.

 

[Pookie]

Are you challenging me? I can't believe how you insist that I am immature yet you say such childish things as that.

It's obvious what I'm talking about. I'm not going to bother to hand you all something you can very easily find for yourselves.

You can't quote it. It doesn't exist.

Quote it, or at least point to the specific thread and post that you say is almost word for word to what Cigan posted. I dare ya. I don't think you can.

 

[Bitchslapper]

Oh, you dare me??? [sarcasm]That's real mature.[/sarcasm]

I already told you, it's the other gay marriage thread, the one that quotes Bush in its title. Ya know, the one you keep being an asshole and harassing me in?

 

[Pookie]

Oh, you dare me??? [sarcasm]That's real mature.[/sarcasm]

I already told you, it's the other gay marriage thread, the one that quotes Bush in its title. Ya know, the one you keep being an asshole and harassing me in?

Ahhh. You mean the thread that you're hiding from your own words in. Which post in that thread then? I don't see it. Point to the one you mean, then we'll see. It's not there. Prove me wrong. It should be easy for you, since you said it's almost word for word to Cigan's post.

You REALLY need to get over people questioning your opinions. This really is a discussion board, whether you like it or not.

 

[Bitchslapper]

LOL, you're starting to amuse me. Every fucking post I made in there is similar to what Cigan said, aside from teh posts replying to you. And I don't mind my opinion being questioned, it's when someone blindly attacks it in some sort of vindictive rage when that same opinion is THE SAME AS YOUR OWN, that's what I don't like.

 

[Pookie]

LOL, you're starting to amuse me. Every fucking post I made in there is similar to what Cigan said, aside from teh posts replying to you. And I don't mind my opinion being questioned, it's when someone blindly attacks it in some sort of vindictive rage when that same opinion is THE SAME AS YOUR OWN, that's what I don't like.

Whatever, dude. Deny it all you want. Your words are there for anyone to read. Your opinion was not even close to mine. I've posted about it there.

Again, if you have a reading comprehension problem, I apologize.

 

[69forever]

LOL, you're starting to amuse me. Every fucking post I made in there is similar to what Cigan said, aside from teh posts replying to you. And I don't mind my opinion being questioned, it's when someone blindly attacks it in some sort of vindictive rage when that same opinion is THE SAME AS YOUR OWN, that's what I don't like.

I love to debate issues and get to the heart of a matter...and have watched your posts sinse you have come here. I usually give slack to those younger than I am for their lack of experience and maturity...encouraging their growth. With you I make an exemption to that. You are arrogent, antagonistic and generally an asshole. If you get taken to task for that enough, you might think maybe there is some worth to others perception of you.

But then you would have to be humble enough to be teachable, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Have a good day.

 

[Cigan]

Aside from the fact that IMO the most common concept of marriage (or civil union, whatever you prefer) is obsolete, my question is this: Why do gays and lesbians want to get married? As it stands now, there is a 50% divorce rate (approx.) in the U.S., so do homosexuals want to get in on all the broken-home fun or what?

And another thing, if it's about children, then that's not a good reason either because single people are allowed to adopt children, so marriage really isn't required anymore by us as a society to provide a stable environment for the child(ren).

And lastly, if all they want is to live together and 'prove thier love' for each other, why don't they just write up a mutually-binding contract that says as much if they don't trust each other without a piece of paper? It's all part of the flawed concept that when you fall in love you get married (or civilly united or whatever). The only reason marriage was created was to provide a stable environment for the rearing of children, and as I stated earlier, that is no longer required by us as a society.

I think it's just a part of the "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!" mentality. It's not enough that we live and let live, do unto others, etc. and just accept them, we have to praise them [sarcasm]for having the courage and fortitude to do something so bold and outside the mainstream[/sarcasm] or something. Or maybe some of them even think they're superior and insist that we acknowledge it.

Bitch Slapper I looked at the other thread and this was the first thing you posted. Now the post you said was almost exactly like mine may have come later. I don't know I didn't read the whole thread, but even if there was one after this post I understand why people may have reacted differently to you. You completely downplay the importance of marriage here. The right to see your sick partner in a hopsital, the right to claim their body for proper funerial ritual should they die. The rights to a whole skew of financial assistance which straight people get but we don't. Keep in mind in my post I didn't say I was against gay marriage, I indeed said if I could wake up tommorow and have it be here I would happily do so. I am glad Kerry is for civil unions instead of marriage so the conservatives don't blow a gasket and strip us of as many freedoms as they can.

Also I completely and utterly disagree with your comments about having a stable family environment to raise children. I don't know where you were raised, but I was raised in a normal two parent family, with regular visits to my grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins etc. etc. etc. I liked that environment. I would very much like to find a stable life partner some day and either adopt kids or find some very willing lesbian who is willing to share custody, and provide a similar if more eccentric version of my childhood. I know not everyone grows up in such a nuclear family, in fact I have several friends who grew up in homes that conservatives would probably call "broken" but turned out very nicely and very happy. So maybe we don't "need" such nuclear families, but I don't think it should be up to you or anyone else to tell a family unit that they should or shouldn't be any way. And as long as straight couples have marriage laws to protect their rights to that family, and the rights of the children to equal support from each spose should a breakup happen, then we deserve those rights, and so do all our queer raised children. I just want to make sure we are patient enough to get those rights properly without causing more political trouble than we have to.

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

Re: Re: When John Kerry says he is against gay marriage...

Kerry says he's against same-sex marriage. Why do you think he's lying about that? Is he not "Presidential material" because you think he's lying, or because you think he really does support same-sex marriage?

You tell me Pookie. Before the Mass Supreme Court Decision he had this to say (I had a quote even more pro-gay marraige, but I can't find it right now, it'll come up again in the campaign, I assure you.)

Arlington man pushes Kerry’s gay appeal
Daley says senator was gay rights advocate before it was fashionable
By JOE CREA
Friday, January 16, 2004
Long before he became the gay liaison for Sen. John Kerry’s presidential bid, Tom Daley knew that Kerry was the candidate he planned to support. Daley said the Massachusetts senator has a long track record of supporting gay rights issues, dating back to 1985, “long before it was fashionable” to lend political support to gay rights causes.
…
Kerry has a 100 percent pro-gay voting record, according to the Human Rights Campaign. Kerry was the original co-sponsor of the hate crimes bill. In 1985, Kerry introduced a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He also supports the passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. Additionally, he has called for an end to the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy banning gays from serving openly in the military.
Additionally, Kerry was one of 14 senators — and the only one up for reelection in 1996 — to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act, which bans federal recognition of gay marriages, according to his campaign’s Web site.

[I[Kerry is also opposed to the Federal Marriage Amendment that would define marriage as being between a man and a woman. [italics mine][/I]

Daley said he did not know whether his boss would take a leadership role in defeating the FMA, but said Kerry had pledged to vote against the measure if it comes up for a vote.

http://www.washblade.com/2004/1-16/news/national/kerry.cfm


...

His official stand now (from FoxNews)

Supports partnership rights and civil unions. Opposed to gay marriage. Disagrees with the Massachusetts court's decision.


...

I have to read this as pandering to constituencies in order to get elected. First, he told your community what you wanted to hear to get votes in the primary, now he's telling middle America what middle America wants to hear in order to get elected. If he intends to always please the majority, then Gay Marraige, as an issue is in deep trouble. IMHO



Some pundits have gone so far as to speculate whether the activism of first Sandra Day O'Conner and now the Mass. Court are going to put the whole issue under constitutional ban.

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

I'm gonna get in trouble for this post I just know it. I personally am glad Kerry is against gay marriage and here's why.

He's for civil unions. Now I know the whole shtick about how separate is never equal and all that jazz, and I agree. And I am for gay marriage eventually, and hell if I could wake up tommorow and BOOM gay marriage that would be excessively cool. But it doesn't work that way. With the Lawrence ruling, and the Mass rulings the conservatives are circling their wagons at lightnight speeds, and while I don't think that they have the momentum to pass the amendment of doom, I also am not naieve enough to just not worry about it. A lot more people support civil unions than marriage, and it has been my experience that social change is best made in small steps so everyone (ok just the social conservatives) can adjust. If civil unions become the norm they won't be equal, but once people are used to them when a case shows up that says "look this is bullshit we should have full marriage" people are gonna look around and scratch their heads and wonder "what's the point of having it with a different name anyway?", because they will have had time to get comfortable with the absurdity of the idea of "civil unions" being ok but marriage not being. However, until the moderate conservatives have time to outgrow their paranoia there is a heavy risk of backlash, and I'm much happier with a strong supporter of civil unions (which Kerry's official stance is he is for them) than a strong supporter of gay marriage in the white house.

Do you know what his official stance is? First, he doesn't want to support marraige being between a man and a woman and then he doesn't want to support it's ban...

It reminds me of Bill Clinton on women's issues. He passed harrassment legislation. He crucified the military for affairs. He then went on to harrass women and have affairs.

So do you support Democrats for saying the right things or doing the right things?

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

Alright...I guess I weigh in on the side of making progress in the face of hysterical backlash. While principle says all or nothing...I've come to learn that once you lose something, it's next to impossible to get it back. A constitutional amendment against same sex marriage would take decades to reverse.

I believe Kerry to be a honest man...for a politician. Have known him from the days of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Hell, in '71 he fired his medals at the same White House he is now looking to occupy. He has principles...pragmatic, yes. Will he sell us out after the election? Cann't say for sure.

In all honesty...GLBT politics take a back seat to seeing Bush defeated. Any progress made is gravy. I'll take the heat for that. But the simple fact is the current administration is responsible for the largest raping of the American people ever seen. And the man is a religious fanatic, who would take us to the brink and beyond...'cause he believes God is on his side.

See this is what scares me. Kerry did fight in the war. Then he came home and turned anti-war. Then he got into Congress and voted anit-military and anti intelligence all the way. He voted against the B-1 and the smart technology and a whole host of other things that Clinton and Bush had access to in fighting their wars. You would support hypocrasy if it fits your ideology. I dissagree that Kerry is an honest man or that he has any core values.

(PS - he only fired his easliy replaceable ribbons and his medals hand proudly displayed in his office. The OTHER guys threw their medals. Not John. He'd need them. Again, the two faces of Kerry. Those guys thought he was one of them, but he was playing both sides against the middle.)

 

[Fawkin'Injun]

I think if Bush could have his way, we would be locked in the proverbial closet forever, out of sight of him and his "friends".

I disagree. All of America which you look at so suspiciously has grown increasingly tolorant of your lifestyle. If what you say is true about Bush, Cheney would be automatically disqualified for having a lesbian daughter and Reagan, who had a gay son, whould not be held in such utter high regard.

I think you are engaging in stereotyping for political gain.