What Sets Humans Apart

[dr_mabeuse]

In the search for some trait sets man apart from the rest of the animal world, scientists have now found that chimps will not do favors for one another.

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/051026_chimpfrm.htm

They'll co-operate when it's in their best interest, but when it comes to doing something out of sympathy, with no expectation of personal reward, they turn selfish.

More evidence that it's our capacity to love and care that sets man apart and has led to our domination over the rest of the animal world.

And that's why you can forget about asking a chimp to bring in your mail when you're on vacation. They might say they will, but they won't.

--Zoot

 

[Guest]

and here i was thinking that it was our ability to accessorize.

 

[impressive]

Even the most altruistic among us are motivated by self-interest. Helping others makes me feel good about myself. Helping others makes the world a wee bit better/happier/nicer place -- which benefits me in a roundabout way.

I think the things that separate humans from other animals are, rather, the abilities to: (a) generalize our "favors" and/or "sacrifices" as benefiting the greater good; and (b) conceptualize delayed gratification.

 

[cantdog]

One imagines a chimp with a big splinter of wood piercing the skin of her back, trying desperately to find someone who'll help her pull it out.

"Fuck you, grandma. What's in it for me?"

Imp, I think you are taking on an unnecessary complexity when you try to explain altruism in terms of self interest. We get our ability to act in the common interest from the ape social system. That's the same place we get our hunger for domination hierarchies.

We lived in small troops and co-operated to survive, and arranged our social hierarchy much as other primates do. When law breaks down, we still go with the ancient system of personal authority. Tribal systems exist in so many disparate parts of the world that we have concluded they are derived from our common heritage. Expulsion from tribe, in hostile places, may as well be a death sentence, and tribal members believe strongly in tribal rules.

Acting in the common interest is right in the grue. It's basic. It doesn't need to be explained in terms of some philosophical idea of enlightened self-interest; it can stand on its own. The thing dr_mabeuse brings up, just helping another fellow being for no reason in particular, is different from groupthink. Flocks of brainless birds know how to act in the common interest, but they don't up and do favors for each other.

On the other hand, I think you have the nub in the last part of your post. Doing favors for each other may be a direct result of the purely cortical abilities to picture delayed gratification, and to generalize the abstract from the particular.

 

[rgraham666]

It's our ability to abstract, to imagine that sets us apart from other animals.

This is both good and bad.

It's good because it allows us to imagine a world different and better than the one we currently inhabit. And imagine what we can do to make it happen.

It's bad because it enables us to harm one another for reasons no animal could fathom. "What's this religion/political/ economic thing you're grunting about?" an animal will ask.

 

[cantdog]

Exactly. A mother and daughter, constantly fighting, because once there are two women in the household one of them 'has' to be the dominant one-- these people need to override, with their intellect, the almost instinctual urgings of the ape social system. That's a good function of intellect.

But screeds of sermons have been spoken in order to convince people to just treat other people well. That's because there's no instinctual push for that, it has to be consciously decided.

 

[R. Richard]

I would say that what truly sets humans apart is their ability to see deferred rewards. I may help someone with no probability of immediate reward. However, the establishment of a pattern of help with no immediate reward leads to a world in which I may also receive the benefit of help with no immediate reward.

In short, a unique human attribute is the ability to conceptualize the future to see a stream of delayed benefits from current actions.

JMHO.

 

[Stella_Omega]

We are also able to envision other abstracts; we can conceive of kinship across tribal lines, and in fact, across species lines as well.
I'm not talking about symbiosis, but the perception that another type of creature shares our fate, and deserves our attention, simply because it exists.
Although Koko the gorilla loved her kitten, and many dogs and cats live together in ad hoc packs- in the wild, species do not co-operate out of altruism or love.
Dolphins have been known to help men- but they've never been known to help a sea turtle for instance. Or a chimp.
And of course, this sense doesn't exist equally in all men, either- but it's amazing how many of us do see things this way.
Damn, I'm incoherent, better get some coffee!

 

[H Dean]

We are also able to envision other abstracts; we can conceive of kinship across tribal lines, and in fact, across species lines as well.
I'm not talking about symbiosis, but the perception that another type of creature shares our fate, and deserves our attention, simply because it exists.
Although Koko the gorilla loved her kitten, and many dogs and cats live together in ad hoc packs- in the wild, species do not co-operate out of altruism or love.
Dolphins have been known to help men- but they've never been known to help a sea turtle for instance. Or a chimp.
And of course, this sense doesn't exist equally in all men, either- but it's amazing how many of us do see things this way.
Damn, I'm incoherent, better get some coffee!

It should be remembered that this is comletely based upon behaviors that we have been able to observe and that we have not observed all of their actions.

Until Koko, we had no clue that gorillas were capable of higher thought. However, as I understand it, Koko has actually made up words and is a relatively intelligent individual in her own right. This, more than any evidence I have seen, leads me to believe that it is human beings who have failed to understand the motivations and languages of other "higher" animals.

Also, an interesting fact about dolphins is that have been known to kill other dolphin species. They are also known to rape and abuse other dolphins and to gang up on a female so that only the members of the "gang party" can copulate with her.

Using this as an example, it would seem to suggest that animals do have motivations that are more complex than we had previously thought. And it is entirely likely that it is human kind who are not capable of deciphering their complexities since we tend to "force" the world to bend to our will and refuse to bend to the world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It should be remembered that this is comletely based upon behaviors that we have been able to observe and that we have not observed all of their actions.

Until Koko, we had no clue that gorillas were capable of higher thought. However, as I understand it, Koko has actually made up words and is a relatively intelligent individual in her own right. This, more than any evidence I have seen, leads me to believe that it is human beings who have failed to understand the motivations and languages of other "higher" animals.

Also, an interesting fact about dolphins is that have been known to kill other dolphin species. They are also known to rape and abuse other dolphins and to gang up on a female so that only the members of the "gang party" can copulate with her.

Using this as an example, it would seem to suggest that animals do have motivations that are more complex than we had previously thought. And it is entirely likely that it is human kind who are not capable of deciphering their complexities since we tend to "force" the world to bend to our will and refuse to bend to the world.

No argument here!
I will only add that- although we can find examples of human-type behaviours in one or another species; thus far, (And, as you point out, barring further observations) only humans show such a wide diversity of behaviours- not only within the species, but within individuals.

 

[H Dean]

No argument here!
I will only add that- although we can find examples of human-type behaviours in one or another species; thus far, (And, as you point out, barring further observations) only humans show such a wide diversity of behaviours- not only within the species, but within individuals.

For the most part we can't observe them long enough in their natural settings.

Too bad, too...I would really like to know what those cetaceans with the woodies are talking about. "Hey man, check out her flukes!"

 

[maggot420]

If animals could talk, we still wouldn't understand them

 

[Dar~]

I believe what sets humans apart is the ability to realize our futures can be limited. Apes and monkeys don't have the ability to forsee that they will die. We know and therefore have the ability to live our lives and appreciate our gifts rather than never doing anything different.

 

[Singularity]

Nope... It is

credit cards, polka music, and People magazine that makes us different. Sadly, only one of the three is a step up the evolutionary ladder from the primordial cesspool of biological imperatives....

Or something like that.

 

[yui]

If animals could talk, we still wouldn't understand them

It's the same with other people. We can't understand them either.

Hello, M.

 

[maggot420]

It's the same with other people. We can't understand them either.

Hello, M.

It would be easier if they didnt speak so many different languages...maybe

Hiya Sweetie

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Language sets us apart.

The ability to communicate complex ideas. I deas that can't be demonstrated gives us concepts like love, an after liffe, etc. Without language, we wouldn't be too far advanced above the great apes. With it, we are in a league of our own.

 

[elsol]

Complex emotions...

Like ambition.

I can see it now...

"I want that banana... no, actually I want ALL bananas..."

*tada* Humanity is born.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[hotchkiss]

What are you trying to say!? That most of the people I work with and my in-laws are all Chimps?

Oh Bugger I'm going back down the pub

 

[sweetnpetite]

I've heard that it's our conciousness of our self or self awareness that sets us apart. I can't remember how it was stated, but it made sence at the time.

I think humans have the ability to choose against their biology. (ie- choose not to have sex or procreate, choose to fast, choose to breast or bottle feed...). At the same time, we often have to struggle to find our purpose, unlike a honey bee or an ant or even a lion or elephant or whatever who doesn't have to consider these things. They know what they were born to do and we have to figure it out.

I think that it's a bit different for domesticated animals. In fact, I think that we confuse them when we domesticate them and expect them to live by our rules. For example, dogs are born to hunt (ie-kill) and eat fresh raw meat and natural foods. Yet we give them processed dog food and punish them for barking, hunting (chasing cars), and killing birds and so forth. And if they should bite a person (either brought on by training or as a defensive reaction) we have them killed. (Even though we'd never give the death penalty to a person who was incapable of understanding such consequences)

Animals are born knowing there roles. These roles and rules are agreed upon and enforced naturally. (You don't run from a predator because it's the law, you run or you get eaten up!) People have to figure out there roles and create and enforce rules artificially.

On a spiritual or even metaphoric level this is explained in Genesis with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Animals don't know about good and evil. They know about limited cause and effect, benefit and bane. Everything else in humans I believe you will find elsewear in the animal kingdom, even love, compassion, community, grief, depression, ritual, homosexuality- probably even non-conformity (although I suspect it usually leads to death or ostracism).

I know that animals can grieve, and I believe they can get depressed and so forth, but does mental illness (psychosis) exist in animals without physical cause? (ie- rabbies)? I wonder if the answers to this question coupled with the answer to 'what makes people different from animals' can be a key to understanding mental illness in regards to 'how much is biological' and how much is more than biological. just musing...

 

[maggot420]

Language sets us apart.

The ability to communicate complex ideas. I deas that can't be demonstrated gives us concepts like love, an after liffe, etc. Without language, we wouldn't be too far advanced above the great apes. With it, we are in a league of our own.

Even language seems to fail at times when it comes to concepts such as love, the afterlife, and non-dairy creamers. We are in a league of our own I think because of the ability to walk erect. This gave us the freedom to use our hands for things other than locomotion. We were able to use tools like no other species. From there we developed more complex tools such as language and can-openers. So we have advanced above apes. But I wonder if centuries, eons, or years from now, if our tools can be held responsible for our destruction, are we are really above any other living creature? Technology, society, civilization are astounding accomplishments to be sure, but are they more valuable that the ability to interact with our environment? The wolves occupy a similar slot in the food chain. They have a similiar societal structure, they even have a similiar form of non verbal communication, and they have proven to be superioir to us in that they have never created weapons of mass destruction, the megalopolis and spam.
I think maybe we are not more advanced or above other living creatures on this planet. I think the jury is still out.

 

[hotchkiss]

[/QUOTE]I know that animals can grieve, and I believe they can get depressed and so forth, but does mental illness (psychosis) exist in animals without physical cause? (ie- rabbies)? I wonder if the answers to this question coupled with the answer to 'what makes people different from animals' can be a key to understanding mental illness in regards to 'how much is biological' and how much is more than biological. just musing...[/QUOTE]


Go to any poor Zoo and watch the demented creatures pace their cramped enclosures, or watch footage of maltreated bears rocking like looneys, but there again thats mental disorders inflicted by us caring sharing homo sapiens so that doesnt really count does it!

 

[sweetnpetite]

I would say that what truly sets humans apart is their ability to see deferred rewards. I may help someone with no probability of immediate reward. However, the establishment of a pattern of help with no immediate reward leads to a world in which I may also receive the benefit of help with no immediate reward.

In short, a unique human attribute is the ability to conceptualize the future to see a stream of delayed benefits from current actions.

JMHO.

I don't know about that. I mean, suppose you could see into the future and you knew you'd never need such help and then you saw someone who did. Since you knew that there was zero benefit from helping them, would you still help or would you say "tough luck"

ps- please don't try to show how you could possibly benefit in some other way from the transaction (ie making a new friend or something) as that is not the point of the question.

ps- doc, maybe apes don't do favors for each other, but I bet some other animals do. It's kind of a limited study (just because apes may be closest to humans doesn't mean that they represent all animals or human/animal differences.)

 

[sweetnpetite]

I know that animals can grieve, and I believe they can get depressed and so forth, but does mental illness (psychosis) exist in animals without physical cause? (ie- rabbies)? I wonder if the answers to this question coupled with the answer to 'what makes people different from animals' can be a key to understanding mental illness in regards to 'how much is biological' and how much is more than biological. just musing...[/QUOTE]


Go to any poor Zoo and watch the demented creatures pace their cramped enclosures, or watch footage of maltreated bears rocking like looneys, but there again thats mental disorders inflicted by us caring sharing homo sapiens so that doesnt really count does it!
[/QUOTE]

Well, exactly. And we're (as in humans) usually the cause of our own (as in other humans) mental problems too. Much of it can be traced to abuse, trauma (usually human caused), neglect, ect.

We're bad for the planet- we're even bad for each other! [Amicus's cue to tell me how Liberals hate mankind If he does, I'm puting him on ignore, that was so not my point and I don't care to get sidetracked into it.]

 

[sweetnpetite]

I found it

The difference between animals and humans:

the abiltity to drive others crazy.