What I Wrote And Why - A Family Ritual

[EmilyMiller]

Continuing to support @StillStunned’s excellent idea…

Not a lot of commentary on technical matters, quite a lot of angst and rationalization about dipping my toe into the incest pool.

The Writing of A Family Ritual.

Emily

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[Djmac1031]

Let me toss you a little feedback. You have no interest in the category and that was obvious in the story. Then you openly admit in your closing notes, you don't care for the category, and even mock it a bit. Then we get the "stretching myself as an author"

Long story short you shit on the category, admitted you only wrote it to try it, and...somehow you're trying to sound like a martyr that you received angst. Your score would barely be a three if not for forum members cheerleading you.

Now you're-and not for the first time-running to essay category to defend yourself and call more attention to yourself.

Play stupid games, get stupid prizes.

Just going to say this in the tone of 'tough love" you're a good writer, and you don't have to be this defensive, and certainly not this needy.

No one cares why we write our stories, other than maybe a few here and from the angle of being another author and curious how other's minds work.

Personally, I think it falls under hubris and an attention grab. I don't think you lack the latter.

Weren't you the guy recently complaining about how people's behavior here was running off members?

You talk a good game, but then turn around and attack others for writing things or discussing topics you take issue with.

Can't just ignore or let it go, can you?

And yet you have the balls to call other people attention whores.

Who's contributing to the negative atmosphere here again? Remind me?

 

[StillStunned]

Let me toss you a little feedback.

Well, that was a friendly first reply to someone's thread. Why even bother?

You complain about Em seeking attention. But isn't that what we're all doing? As writers, as posters in the Hangout, every time we publish a story, tell anyone about it, refer to it in a thread about style or content - every time we post here, in fact.

You fault Em for trying something new, for being upset when it didn't go down as she'd hoped. Well, we've all been there. If she wants to write about the experience, is that any skin off your nose?

As for no-one being interested in WIWAWs, perhaps so. But Laurel thinks there's enough interest that she specifically suggested the event. I'll trust her judgment about what the site's users want over yours.

 

[SimonDoom]

No one cares why we write our stories, other than maybe a few here and from the angle of being another author and curious how other's minds work.

Personally, I think it falls under hubris and an attention grab. I don't think you lack the latter.

I don't think anyone ASSUMED that many people care that much, other than those of us in this small authors' community. But that's enough, isn't it? That's what the Hangout is all about. Authors chatting with each other about their stories.

I see nothing wrong with using the Author's Hangout as a forum for talking about one's stories and even hoping it gets one's stories a bit more attention. I unashamedly do that, and I'm confident after 7 years that it's worked to get more readers for my stories.

You do it too. You post your milestones and boast about your success as much as anyone but begrudge others doing the same. You are as attention hungry as anybody in this forum.

To quote Dalton in Road House, Lovecraft: "Be nice." At least try, a little.

 

[EmilyMiller]

A list of WIWAWs posted on this forum:

https://forum.literotica.com/search/1584277/?q=What+I+wrote+and+why&t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=3&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

19 I think, plus @StillStunned’s support thread.

Just sayin’

 

[8letters]

I'm not going to publicly criticize someone's story unless they've asked for feedback. I don't interpret this thread as a request for feedback. Write what you want, Emily.

I'm going to do a little bit of tap dancing here that will hopefully add to the discussion without publicly criticizing Emily's story.

In many ways, this story & WIWAW are similar to my My Mom Competes with my Stepmom and its WIWAW. I wrote my story to lecture I/T readers on how implausible Mom-Son stories are. I placed those lectures in a story that respected I/T readers and that I/T readers loved. My points may have gone over their heads, but they read them and, hopefully, my points are stuck in their head for them to process gradually.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'm going to do a little bit of tap dancing here that will hopefully add to the discussion without publicly criticizing Emily's story.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to criticize a story, in the spirit of honest discussion.

What's not acceptable is storming in on someone's thread, throwing around insults and accusations, then running off.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

 

[8letters]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to criticize a story, in the spirit of honest discussion.

I beg to differ. If you criticize someone's story, and they aren't interested in hearing that criticism, all you've done is piss them off and make them defensive. Speaking from personal experience. Now, I think I have a very thick skin and am generally not bothered by criticism, but even I have my breaking point.

 

[jehoram]

Thanks for the insight into what goes into a story and how it's shaped by both personal experience and a fertile imagination. It might be interesting for me to analyze one of my own stories. I once wrote a two-part story of an early affair that didn't turn out well. The first part was fact (with some names changed) and the second was fiction... how I wanted the story to turn out, if things had been different.

I ended up pulling the story because it came to my attention that the woman might have recognized herself in the story and it might have had bad consequences.

 

[KeithD]

I beg to differ. If you criticize someone's story, and they aren't interested in hearing that criticism, all you've done is piss them off and make them defensive. Speaking from personal experience. Now, I think I have a very thick skin and am generally not bothered by criticism, but even I have my breaking point.

Agree. This is a share site, not a critique site. So, I don't look at it from the prospective of someone who wants to give critique or guidance but from the prospective of the writer who wants to share what they've written, not be told how they could have written it better (in someone's unvetted judgment) unless/until they've directly asked for critique.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Thanks for the insight into what goes into a story and how it's shaped by both personal experience

I think it’s sometimes more helpful to dissect your motivations for something you found difficult and where you didn’t think you were wholly successful in achieving your goals, than to pick something that flowed easily and where the result delights you.

I’ve done that with my other Reviews & Essays WIWAW.

I did post a forum-based WIWAW about one of my 750 word stories (it’s in the above list) where I was actually really happy with the outcome. But that post was more about technical aspects of the writing as I had dialed some of them to 11 in it.

As understand @StillStunned’s concept. The main point is to get authors talking to each other about their - obviously very diverse - experiences.

Emily

 

[Djmac1031]

I beg to differ. If you criticize someone's story, and they aren't interested in hearing that criticism, all you've done is piss them off and make them defensive. Speaking from personal experience. Now, I think I have a very thick skin and am generally not bothered by criticism, but even I have my breaking point.

Fair.

I think the problem is there's a difference between "criticism" and "here's why your story sucked."

Criticism doesn't HAVE to be insulting. Although I understand the fine line in both offering and receiving it as such.

Anyway, I'm gonna try later to offer my own thoughts on @EmilyMiller s musings here and help get the thread back on track.

Which I'm happy to see happening already.

 

[MrHereWriting]

I'm not going to publicly criticize someone's story unless they've asked for feedback. I don't interpret this thread as a request for feedback. Write what you want, Emily.

These threads are a take on your "Extended Notes" threads, only you were given shit for those by some, not all, but some.

 

[StillStunned]

As understand @StillStunned’s concept. The main point is to get authors talking to each other about their - obviously very diverse - experiences.

Experiences behind the story, experiences while writing, thought processes, stylistic choices, imagery - anything that gives the reader more insight into the story.

This might be boring for some, but for others they might be a source of inspiration or understanding.

And if you do it right, you can draw attention to a story that's otherwise overlooked. We're all attention whores here.

 

[EmilyMiller]

1-800-621-HOPE

 

[lovecraft68]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to criticize a story, in the spirit of honest discussion.

What's not acceptable is storming in on someone's thread, throwing around insults and accusations, then running off.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

To quote the Talking Heads, I said it once, why say it again?

But I will.

First off, when you discuss a story here, people are going to talk about it. I read it initially=because Em posts every time she puts something out, and refrained from commenting on the story or here, then she comes back moaning over the reception, so this time I commented, but here, not on the story because I don't leave negative comments nor do I drop bombs, I didn't like her piece and left it, now she's poking the crowd again.

I don't see anyone having a problem with all the "ohh, it was so good" gushing that goes on here. As always, discussion is great, as long as it's all bestest story ever.

Second, I'm the target audience in said category. Em is complaining of 'angst' from some readers, so I expressed the reason for said angst, again as a reader. I don't care what she wrote, but leave it and move on, if you continue to talk about it, then eventually I'll talk about it.

Third, I grow tired of the extreme defensiveness here. Em started the whole why I write thing with an essay about a story that was fine, except that the two pretentious queen bees bashed it in their review thread, so instead of saying okay, your opinion, she feels the need to publicly post her defense. You started a thread about the same story, because again, two people here panned it. Who cares? That's a tell of someone's serious lack of confidence, that again, to pay a compliment, seems unwarranted to me.

I gave my take, don't like it, that's fine, but here we go with running in to defend your favorite poster because we're only allowed to criticize certain people here, apparently. I'm sure if I, or someone else, crucified a Keith D story no one would care, and know what? Neither would he.

I used the expression tough love because Em for the most part puts out some good stuff and doesn't have to come running the forum pretty much saying "They didn't like my story, I need to explain myself." therefore my stupid game, stupid prizes, comment. That attitude doesn't help anyone as a writer. The majority of stories here have decent ratings and decent comments, this site-unless you're in LW-is not "mean" but if you enter a category with "I don't like you, I'll tell you I don't like you, but please read and vote my story" well, that's what you're going to get.

I get killed in LW because of my content, and the fact I troll the category here all the time, so guess what? They bomb the shit out of me, should I bitch about it? I get what I asked for.

A lot of the newer(to me anyway) crowd here has had some good success but are a thin-skinned lot who publicly post and publish on a forum/site anyone can reply to, but can't handle anything negative.

I don't care what your game is, but you don't get better until you get knocked down, get up, say fuck you and go at it again. If Miss Miller wants to tell me to fuck all the way off, she's free to do so because I-unlike others-get that what you put forth can be what you get in return.

I'm going to clue you and others in on something, when I feel attacked by readers, or put down by other authors, my response comes out in "Yeah, watch this." and I post a story that gets numbers those people would beg for. I don't defend my stories, or the majority of my comments here, because I don't feel the need to. Like me, don't like me, wish me dead, its all good.

You're getting a response because of the "and then run" crack.

So, if anything here is off putting to you, or anyone else, its on you for inviting me back.

 

[Djmac1031]

@lovecraft68

In the interest of actually trying to have a respectful discussion, let's address your initial reply:

Long story short you shit on the category,

How exactly did she "shit" on the category? By attempting something different from the norm? Please explain exactly what you meant by that.

and...somehow you're trying to sound like a martyr that you received angst.

Point out exactly where she's claiming martyrdom. Quotes where applicable, please. If you're going to make an accusation like that, back it up.

Now you're-and not for the first time-running to essay category to defend yourself and call more attention to yourself.

As has been pointed out, there are various other authors who've all participated in this essay experiment. Are you calling them all out on it equally? Or just targeting one person for... reasons?

No one cares why we write our stories

Don't presume to speak for the rest of us.

Personally, I think it falls under hubris and an attention grab.

Hubris? Again, back your accusations with facts. Or don't make them.

but here we go with running in to defend your favorite poster

Only because you seem obsessed with attacking her directly. On a regular basis. You've made several accusations including fraudulent identity yet have nothing to back it up. Yet you continue your personal vendetta.

You talk about championing women here yet have gone out of your way to target one. Regularly.

I'm just asking why.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I am not a believer in tough love kind of feedback unless it comes from people one deeply trusts, so in that sense, I believe that the delivery matters almost as much as the feedback itself. A good number of people will react badly to a crude/rude delivery, no matter how good the feedback is. That is also the kind of criticism that can be said about AMD and OM's thread. We are all authors here so finding the right words to express our thoughts shouldn't be that hard.

That being said, I disagree with what most people here said about feedback. If you write an essay about your story and then create a thread about it on the forum, I would say that invites discussion and giving feedback about the story. You can agree with the said feedback or not, but creating a thread about a story means exactly that, to me at least.
It's really not hard to meet in the middle about this

 

[AchtungNight]

I think the story hit me the wrong way because, like most incest readers, I wanted to see a positive story without grooming and what we got, while not entirely negative, was still played as not what I wanted to see. I think we can’t help but emphasize the negatives of sex once they are alluded to, especially when we ourselves are victims of those negatives. I prefer to think of sex as a natural fun activity, not something people force on others. Then again, I am capable of addressing its dark sides also and working to overcome them. Not everyone likes having those dark sides brought up and emphasized as the story does. “I was abused, I now use my sexuality as a way to make extra money, but I’m getting older, hmm you’re young and that could make you more lucrative for a while…”- this does not sound like a good relationship to me. I have no problem with sisters exploring sexuality together, but when they feel forced into uncomfortable situations… I hope you understand.

 

[8letters]

These threads are a take on your "Extended Notes" threads, only you were given shit for those by some, not all, but some.

My "Extended Notes" threads had a different target audience, my readers. I never wrote them with other authors in mind.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think the story hit me the wrong way because, like most incest readers, I wanted to see a positive story without grooming and what we got, while not entirely negative, was still played as not what I wanted to see. I think we can’t help but emphasize the negatives of sex once they are alluded to, especially when we ourselves are victims of those negatives. I prefer to think of sex as a natural fun activity, not something people force on others. Then again, I am capable of addressing its dark sides also and working to overcome them. Not everyone likes having those dark sides brought up and emphasized as the story does. “I was abused, I now use my sexuality as a way to make extra money, but I’m getting older, hmm you’re young and that could make you more lucrative for a while…”- this does not sound like a good relationship to me. I have no problem with sisters exploring sexuality together, but when they feel forced into uncomfortable situations… I hope you understand.

I think it’s just really odd what people are bothered by and what they are not. It’s different for all of us. I no doubt get bothered by things you are fine with. We are like a set of Venn diagrams, with the intersection sometimes kinda small.

It was never my intention to write incest in a positive light. Only to try to think of a scenario in which it might be the least bad option and have a certain twisted logic to it.

I’d argue it’s close to impossible to write an incest story that is simultaneously realistic and titillating (then maybe some people get off on that, same as they do on non-con).

If incest is a fantasy, then go have fun with it. But I wasn’t writing a fantasy.

Emily

 

[8letters]

I think the story hit me the wrong way because, like most incest readers, I wanted to see a positive story without grooming and what we got, while not entirely negative, was still played as not what I wanted to see. I think we can’t help but emphasize the negatives of sex once they are alluded to, especially when we ourselves are victims of those negatives. I prefer to think of sex as a natural fun activity, not something people force on others. Then again, I am capable of addressing its dark sides also and working to overcome them. Not everyone likes having those dark sides brought up and emphasized as the story does. “I was abused, I now use my sexuality as a way to make extra money, but I’m getting older, hmm you’re young and that could make you more lucrative for a while…”- this does not sound like a good relationship to me. I have no problem with sisters exploring sexuality together, but when they feel forced into uncomfortable situations… I hope you understand.

My take is that Emily wrote the story she wanted to write, and that was not "a positive story". Your feedback is probably wasted as I doubt she was trying to make you as a typical incest reader happy.

Edit: Dang! Emily beat me to posting.

 

[EmilyMiller]

My take is that Emily wrote the story she wanted to write, and that was not "a positive story". Your feedback is probably wasted as I doubt she was trying to make you as a typical incest reader happy.

Pretty much this

With the clarification that I wasn’t trolling or trying to upset anyone. I was writing what I found interesting in the only way I know to write.

Emily

 

[StillStunned]

Sometimes we have stories that fit the category description without aligning with the category's readership. I have an E/V story where the narrator is creepy and obsessed. I was new here, and innocent, and didn't think twice about putting it in E/V.

It will never be my best performer, but fortunately readers could appreciate it for what it was - not a stroker, but something darker. And my peeps in E/V are quite forgiving. I/T readers faced with a story that highlights how creepy their kink is react more strongly, as I've seen with another of my stories.

(Nowadays I bundle these in a series I call "One-off artsy stuff". That seems to have helped the ratings.)