What a sub wears?

[JMohegan]

ETA: Maybe I should just start my own thread. I've been hijacking this one like no other.

Not really.

This OP is the one who described herself as "butch" and entered into a relationship with a couple who tried to turn her into a girlie-style person. Things went south very quickly.

 

[Netzach]

M would answer that question the exact same way.

But he's still submissive and still a bottom. He'd say he despises outside the bedroom control but he goes out of his way to make me smile and goes out of his way for me and asks me to decide every other thing, which I like.

 

[JMohegan]

Not that I can think of.

But at the same time, I'm not really in a place where I could even consider handing over control of anything to anyone, really, anyway. So who the hell knows.

Do you appreciate negotiation? Compromise?

Do *you* like to make the decisions?

How would you describe interactions in a personal relationship that make you feel comfortable?

 

[00Syd]

Do you appreciate negotiation? Compromise?

Yeah, sometimes. I guess I'm more indecisive than anything else.

Do *you* like to make the decisions?

When I have a strong opinion on the matter at hand.

(And when the question is: Who controls the remote? The answer is always: I do.)

How would you describe interactions in a personal relationship that make you feel comfortable?

I honestly don't know. I want to say, "when everything feels natural" but I don't even really know what exactly "natural" is for me. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Not that I can think of.

But at the same time, I'm not really in a place where I could even consider handing over control of anything to anyone, really, anyway. So who the hell knows.

But given the perfect conditions, does giving up control in any aspect of your life appeal to you?

I would say stop trying to place yourself in the exact definition of a word. Me and My slave have been guilty of this over and over in Our relationship.

I think that is one of the traps of having something like Lit to help new people like you, me, or My slave. We all read about everyone else's experiences or lives and then think THAT'S how its suppose to be. But when we try to chase that, it usually ends up in disaster and unhappiness. Then we question ourselves because it worked for them, so why doesn't it work for us. Its a very frustrating trap if you get caught in it.

When you try to explore this lifestyle, you eventually come across people's own experiences and use it as the instruction manual about how this lifestyle is suppose to be. When in reality, life is about what you make it. Whether its someone's vanilla life or BDSM life.

The thing that helped me and My slave is to just figure out what you enjoy and go with it. Labels be damned. If it doesn't fit how someone else does it, oh well. It's how We do it. And that is all that matters.

Just don't get too crazy about it. You'll figure it out eventually. It just takes time.

 

[00Syd]

But given the perfect conditions, does giving up control in any aspect of your life appeal to you?

Honestly, not really. But maybe. I don't know. Maybe if it was offered to me, and the conditions were right, and the person was right, and all of that good stuff, then maybe. But I don't know. I like to fantasize about it, I like to think that it appeals to me, but I don't think it really does. Maybe it does. I don't know.

I would say stop trying to place yourself in the exact definition of a word. Me and My slave have been guilty of this over and over in Our relationship.

I'd like to stop but I've tried but without success. I think too much.

I think that is one of the traps of having something like Lit to help new people like you, me, or My slave. We all read about everyone else's experiences or lives and then think THAT'S how its suppose to be. But when we try to chase that, it usually ends up in disaster and unhappiness. Then we question ourselves because it worked for them, so why doesn't it work for us. Its a very frustrating trap if you get caught in it.

I think a lot of it isn't even "that's how its supposed to work" so much as "wow, that sounds really nice, I want that." But then realizing that even if it sounds nice it might not actually be right, but how can you know until you try it? And then you try it with disastrous results and go "WTF, I WANT THIS, so why isn't it feeling good?"

When you try to explore this lifestyle, you eventually come across people's own experiences and use it as the instruction manual about how this lifestyle is suppose to be. When in reality, life is about what you make it. Whether its someone's vanilla life or BDSM life.

The thing that helped me and My slave is to just figure out what you enjoy and go with it. Labels be damned. If it doesn't fit how someone else does it, oh well. It's how We do it. And that is all that matters.

Just don't get too crazy about it. You'll figure it out eventually. It just takes time.

I'm already getting kind of crazy about it. Manic, even. I've been thinking about this so much. Too much. And it sucks, I'm supposed to be on vacation and I am totally pre-occupied with all of this SHIT.

 

[Netzach]

Again, I relate to ya, Syd. It's like 20 people asking you if you think you'd like to live in North Dakota when you've never been there.

If none of it makes any sense to you outside of the ideal context, not being in the ideal context it's impossible to answer questions about it.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah, sometimes. I guess I'm more indecisive than anything else.




When I have a strong opinion on the matter at hand.

(And when the question is: Who controls the remote? The answer is always: I do.)




I honestly don't know. I want to say, "when everything feels natural" but I don't even really know what exactly "natural" is for me. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Fair enough, on all counts.

The next questions are: same questions, addressed to him.

You mentioned that "CLEARLY this is all just problems stemming from both of our ideas of the way we both should be and act and all of this layered on bullshit." This reminds me so much of myself, back in the day, but looking at it from the other end. When the general expectation was egalitarian at every turn, but there was a lot of confusion stemming from rapidly shifting social roles, and the choices for me seemed to be an extremely enjoyable but ultimately unsatisfying series of driveby fuckings or a life of ripping my hair out in total frustration.

Start by rejecting the idea that anybody else's model could work for you. I know you said this is difficult, and I know from personal experience that it is. But there's really no good substitute for open analysis of your own needs as an individual, your partner's needs as an individual, and the possibilities for intersection between the two.

 

[00Syd]

Again, I relate to ya, Syd. It's like 20 people asking you if you think you'd like to live in North Dakota when you've never been there.

If none of it makes any sense to you outside of the ideal context, not being in the ideal context it's impossible to answer questions about it.

Yes, exactly. I feel like I'm wondering around in the dark bumping into walls and being asked "where are you."

How could I know? All I know is that I'm bumping into walls.

 

[JMohegan]

I think a lot of it isn't even "that's how its supposed to work" so much as "wow, that sounds really nice, I want that." But then realizing that even if it sounds nice it might not actually be right, but how can you know until you try it? And then you try it with disastrous results and go "WTF, I WANT THIS, so why isn't it feeling good?"

Sometimes I feel like D/s is the new Ozzie and Harriet.

Presented so often in idealized, romanticized form that people become drawn to the illusion. And those for whom the reality just doesn't fit feel like they are missing out on something spectacular and unattainable in any other form.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Honestly, not really. But maybe. I don't know. Maybe if it was offered to me, and the conditions were right, and the person was right, and all of that good stuff, then maybe. But I don't know. I like to fantasize about it, I like to think that it appeals to me, but I don't think it really does. Maybe it does. I don't know.

Hmmm. I'm sensing a little indecision.

I'd like to stop but I've tried but without success. I think too much.

I tend to over think, over plan, over analyze, and micromanage. I know how hard it is to just turn your brain off.

I think a lot of it isn't even "that's how its supposed to work" so much as "wow, that sounds really nice, I want that." But then realizing that even if it sounds nice it might not actually be right, but how can you know until you try it? And then you try it with disastrous results and go "WTF, I WANT THIS, so why isn't it feeling good?"

I'm already getting kind of crazy about it. Manic, even. I've been thinking about this so much. Too much. And it sucks, I'm supposed to be on vacation and I am totally pre-occupied with all of this SHIT.

Maybe you should just get away from it all for a bit. No one says you have to have this all figured out right now.

Walk away. Concentrate on other parts of your life. Then when you are ready, come back refreshed and ready to tackle everything.

 

[00Syd]

Start by rejecting the idea that anybody else's model could work for you. I know you said this is difficult, and I know from personal experience that it is. But there's really no good substitute for open analysis of your own needs as an individual, your partner's needs as an individual, and the possibilities for intersection between the two.

I have tried to do this, a few times. The outside world continues to encroach upon the edges of my mind no matter how much I close the shutters.

***

I always feel kind of bad throwing my personal BS all over the board and getting tailored responses, even though I know its okay and that everyone does it. It makes me feel kind of uncomfortable, so I'm going to try to chill and cut it out.

 

[00Syd]

Sometimes I feel like D/s is the new Ozzie and Harriet.

Presented so often in idealized, romanticized form that people become drawn to the illusion. And those for whom the reality just doesn't fit feel like they are missing out on something spectacular and unattainable in any other form.

I agree.

At least to some extent. At least right now.

 

[Netzach]

Yes, exactly. I feel like I'm wondering around in the dark bumping into walls and being asked "where are you."

How could I know? All I know is that I'm bumping into walls.

What worked well for me was just getting used to meeting people I liked. I'm not a social butterfly and this was a bit forced. I just hung out with a lot of different people, some sub, some Dom, some switch, some not committed, some just heavy SM people, basically my only criteria were "are you remotely turned on by SM in some way" and "are you interesting."

The relationships that weren't really important to me fell away, the ones that are came back if they did. The people I wound up hanging around and hanging around some more dovetailed with my sexuality and romantic life. Sometimes it was POW over the head must fuck you don't care how attraction and sometimes it's not. Attraction is a weird mother, and I give in to it, I don't fight it, I let it lead me for better or for worse. You'll be who you are when you're HOW you are with someone else, and it will come fairly organically for you both if you listen for it.

Taking "what I like" onto paper, devoid of the context of a partner is really impossible for some people. For me, it's not, I have a whole list of perversions as a Top/Dom person that are pretty static and pretty cut and dried, and they work for me, always have - but the more elusive parts of my sexuality which are maybe less important to me on paper but more important to me in the flesh are just that - elusive.

 

[Netzach]

I have tried to do this, a few times. The outside world continues to encroach upon the edges of my mind no matter how much I close the shutters.

***

That makes you a socialized and honest human.

I'll let this die if it's making you uncomfortable, but I, for one, am glad you aired this stuff.

 

[00Syd]

That makes you a socialized and honest human.

I'll let this die if it's making you uncomfortable, but I, for one, am glad you aired this stuff.

No, you don't have to let it die if you have more to say. I really do appreciate any and all advice and anecdotes and such. I just don't start many threads for a reason. I'm not at my most comfortable when I'm the center of attention. Well, I'm actually kind of a huge ham as far as everyone looking at me and complimenting me goes. But I've never felt very comfortable when my personal what-have-you is the focus of attention.

 

[ZRT]

This is a pretty useful discussion because it gets into how real relationships work in a BDSM framework. We talk about the idiots who write the long-winded cliche-ridden nonsense and call them idiots, but now we're actually discussing the reality and we're learning from it.

And really I don't think you're a sub, Syd. I might be wrong, but it's not the impression I'm getting.

So... there you go.

If not a sub, being somebody who likes kinky rough sex under specified parameters doesn't mean we revoke your membership card or anything.

Doesn't make you any less interesting, intelligent, or worthwhile, does it? Doesn't change your desires or feelings, does it?

I know, you are working through both what you want and what you want to be, so it's not an intellectually satisfying answer, perhaps. But if submission isn't what turns you on, then you don't need to be pursuing it as a model for relationship and sexual satisfaction. And if you're not sure whether or not it's what turns you on, then just play with it a bit and see how it goes, but take it slow.

You don't have to answer the question of identity right away. Life is like a journey. Life is also like an analogy.

 

[00Syd]

Maybe I'm not so much into being submissive as I am into being dominated. I don't know. Maybe I'm just submissive in a way that doesn't fit into the common defenition of "submission." I don't know. Sometimes I feel it and sometimes I feel like rebelling against anything I'm told to do. Most of the time I feel like saying "fuck you" whenever I'm told to do anything. Mostly I feel like fidgeting when told to sit still. But not always.

I recently started thinking about myself as being somewhat cat-like. Very "fuck you" except for when I'm not. I enjoy being petted and given attention, and rub against you ceaselessly unless dragged off by the scruff of my neck, which isn't such a bad way to be dragged. I rarely say no to petting, in fact I'll often ask for it, insist on it, rub up against your leg even when you least want it.

When I was in Spain last week, the people we were staying with had two cats. I was sitting and watched the first cat go up to its owner and rub up against him. The cat was rewarded with some rough petting. The other cat got jealous and rushed over, and began nuzzling as best it could against its owners hand, which was very busy petting the other cat. It was almost sad to watch the cat so desperately nuzzle against its owner and get nothing. Finally it´s owner stopped petting the first cat and pet the 2nd cat. The 2nd cat reminded me a lot of myself.

Anyway, I dunno.

I wrote to Seb about how I felt I was sort of cat-like and the email he wrote back was very reassuring at the time. Maybe I'll share an edited version of it.

 

[JMohegan]

I have tried to do this, a few times. The outside world continues to encroach upon the edges of my mind no matter how much I close the shutters.

I tried to do this, more times than I could possibly count, before I found what works for me and stuck with it. I know how hard it is, and frustrating as hell.

Netzach is right. This makes you a socialized and honest human being.

If I understand you correctly, you are currently in a relationship with someone who is similarly confused as to the distinction between what he feels like he should be doing it, and what he actually wants to do. That complicates things considerably, in a way. But it also helps in the sense that you have someone to experiment with. Contemplating all of this stuff in the abstract is rarely, if ever, helpful.

I really like Netzach's post, quoted below. That sort of arrangement doesn't work for me, because I'm way too much of a control freak when it comes to my personal life. But that's *my* issue, not a commentary on Netzach's husband.

Anyway, I'm highlighting her post now because I've seen quite a few examples of successful relationships that work on that rough model. If you and your guy are trying various things on for size, you may want to give that one a try.

M would answer that question the exact same way.

But he's still submissive and still a bottom. He'd say he despises outside the bedroom control but he goes out of his way to make me smile and goes out of his way for me and asks me to decide every other thing, which I like.

 

[Netzach]

I've often compared people on the bottom to cats vs. dogs. There are fewer cats out there and far fewer people who understand them. I know this because M has taught me how to have a pet "cat." - I was very inexperienced with this prior to him.

A lot of people will say that "cats" make bad pets, subs, etc or that they're trying to control the situation. They aren't - they just have a very specific and detailed sense of what they need to feel safe. Dog people tend to be on fewer eggshells in relation to their submission, like consistency, respond favorably to the rolled up newspaper when they're naughty, and will do things that you can't even imagine they would to make you happy.

But cats, though they may freeze up and go "hell, no" more often, still make wonderful "pets."

If you treat your cat well, within certain parameters that usually make sense only to that cat, you will get absolute adorartion, love and yes, loyalty out of the animal and trust. Just because I can't train my cat the way I do a dog doesn't suddenly transform him into my human master, it's still my animal. Extrapolate to submissives, offensive as that sounds.

Most people don't have the patience for this or say they're being topped from below. I see it as creating a safe environment. M's still my pet, but if I come on heavy he just runs away. I know this, God knows, I've experienced it myriad times, I've blundered and fucked up and had to ease back into trust.

As for me, the animal I identify with is the unicorn. Virtually no one has the patience for this. Which is fine, it only needs one once a thousand years. If it never meets that person it's content to run around spearing things and making havoc.

 

[00Syd]

If I understand you correctly, you are currently in a relationship with someone who is similarly confused as to the distinction between what he feels like he should be doing it, and what he actually wants to do. That complicates things considerably, in a way. But it also helps in the sense that you have someone to experiment with. Contemplating all of this stuff in the abstract is rarely, if ever, helpful.

He is not, as far as I know, confused about himself. He knows himself much better than I know myself. He knows what he wants to do and is good at it.

Most of the things that didn't work haven't worked because of me, though he often blames himself. I forget why he thinks it was his fault, now.

 

[00Syd]

I've often compared people on the bottom to cats vs. dogs. There are fewer cats out there and far fewer people who understand them. A lot of people will say that "cats" make bad pets, subs, etc or that they're trying to control the situation. They aren't - they just have a very specific and detailed sense of what they need to feel safe.

If you treat your cat well, within certain parameters that usually make sense only to that cat, you will get absolute adorartion, love and yes, loyalty out of the animal and trust.

Most people don't have the patience for this or say they're being topped from below. I see it as creating a safe environment. M's still my pet, but if I come on heavy he just runs away.

As for me, the animal I identify with is the unicorn.

Seb wrote this to me after I told him my cat theory. It was really good to hear.

Submission ≠ subservience. At least not always. And submission definitely is not the way Manowar says it is. Your submission to me is not your reason for living, your life is not meaningless without it. If you read my list of fetishes on fetlife carefully, you'll find brats right there! I am definitely a cat person, much more so than a dog person (though I like dogs, too). Cats need to be seduced, constantly. Cats will snub you, cats will get angry with you, cats will be jealous of other cats when you favor them, even if the jealous cat was completely ignoring you before you showed interest in the other cat. Cats will also come to you exactly when you need it most, with an uncanny ability to sense when you are feeling down which is rivalled only by their ability to cheer you up. The power there is in the fact that they don't always do exactly what you tell them to. They fight, they snub, they ignore, they flirt. So when they finally do exactly what you want them to, and they do it without your even asking, it seems like the sweetest gift imaginable. And they're doing nothing special! Just the same thing that any cat does all the time whenever you flirt, push, and cajole it into doing so. But, because the cat is such a brat, it has the power to turn the most mundane signs of affection into manna from heaven.
Think about your own desires. Be selfish. Feel hurt when you need attention. Be who you have to be! Being submissive isn't about changing who you are, it's about allowing yourself to express who you are in the context of who someone else is. It's no different from any other relationship dynamic. If you find yourself trying to change how you feel or who you are as part of your submission, you're doing it wrong. The sum of what I want you to do to be a good submissive, for me, is in these words: "be mine." I want to own you, to possess you. Just like a cat. I won't try to change a cat's personality (catality?) to make it fit some ideal. I'll just treat it right, and hope that it treats me right. In the same way, I don't want you to do anything that you don't want to do, and I certainly don't want you to feel that you're doing something wrong by, essentially, having a personality. Sublimating your desires doesn't mean eliminating them! Be yourself! I'm dating you because I like who you are. Don't ever think that I want you to change!

ETA please don't quote his email, I might want to delete it later

 

[swag_man]

A new lexicon

The few words that do hold meanings that apply to me, also hold meanings that do not apply to me at all, which makes me feel as if I have no vocabulary at all that applies to myself. It often feels like there are no words that I AM, only words that I'M NOT.

It's frustrating.

Syd. I would suggest you develop your own lexicon, share it with friends and others in the smaller (but critical) community community to gain feedback, acceptance and therefore 'some traction' in a way that it may then gain wider 'public' usage.

How new words / genre's start!

 

[Netzach]

ETA please don't quote his email, I might want to delete it later

I won't but that rocks. Smart guy. That's the attitude of a keeper.

 

[Netzach]

Most of the things that didn't work haven't worked because of me, though he often blames himself. I forget why he thinks it was his fault, now.

This is almost part and parcel of the Dominant personality package.