What a sub wears?

[Netzach]

I feel like saying this, while comforting, is sort of like putting a band-aid onto a gaping wound. Its like, okay, but what about if the very way you are submissive, not the aspects of you that are submissive, but the way in which your submission manifests itself does not fit into the very definition of the word submission. Its not like, oh I'm missing some of the traits that often submissives have, its like I look into the dictionary at the word submissive and the way I am that label does not fit its definition.

I think about that and its one big monumental moment of "Well, FUCK."

And yeah, this is all superficial labels and yeah yeah who cares about labels, no label fits everyone, do what you want, etc. etc. etc. but when your understanding of yourself does not fit into the world around you it creates the potential for some serious mind-fuckery. It doesn't matter how aware of myself I am, how much I know that labels don't matter, how much I'm intellectually aware of what is important, I'm still running into these walls, because they are there in the world, and not even my own intellectual self awareness is strong enough to break through them.

And I mean, I'm sorry, but I honestly have a hard time believing anyone that says that they are able to ignore labels and expectations and just be themselves without any difficulty. This is really difficult shit that's completely surrounding each and every one of us from every side. We're saturated with it and its impossible to escape completely.

Netz and I can't be the only people who are frustrated by this.

I think in trying to theorize our own sexualities, and get off to them (O for example) we've also codified and ossified everything exciting and sexy about them to varying extents. I think this is the submissive-but-not-A-SUBMISSIVE kind of thing comes into play. You want certain things out of your sexuality, but you don't find that this automatically makes you jive mentally and psychosexually with other people who want the same. The annoying, immature aspect of the community that I've encountered glosses over this, and assumes shared understanding, and shared motivations.

This isn't true only of the SM world, but any minority sexuality.

I mean, because I love to do X Y and Z in the context of a single particular, irreplaceable, relationship, NO it does not follow that I've always been the caretaker girl, I get my best jollies pleasing other people, I'm shy and need self confidence bolstering, I'm looking for a mentor, I'm a child in a woman's body or any of the nine thousand other things that people have said SHOULD follow as a result but don't never have and won't. For the longest time, I checked my desires against those of the other women around me who ID as submissive and I went "fuck, I can't be that, that doesn't make any sense to me at all."

They still rarely do. But I know what feels good when I'm alone with my lover.

Maybe other people are better at "damn the labels" than I am, but I always wonder where and why they're there, I always wonder why people think as they do and furthermore, why so many of them are invested in making ME think things.

It's the same as "well I'm not a lesbian, because I still like boys." That was my HS self understanding. The option of being something other than an afterschool special lesbian or straight was never in front of me.

I mean can you imagine what it would have felt like to be around before Roissy was this total freaking cliche? Hell, I'd like to have been active when the Mapplethorpe exhibit was causing conniptions around OH. Oh, I also see a lot less of this in the queer leather world. I've never in my life heard "boys, girls, or slaves are like this." Everyone's expected to be kind of a full fledged adult and sexuality is sexuality. There's dysfunction there too, a plenty, but another type.

I hate the feeling of feeling like some kind of cliche at every turn. Yet I can be doing the most cliched of behaviors and it's hot and fresh and exciting if I'm doing it far away from the crowd. When I try to wrest meaning out of this experience and talk about it, I have no language that doesn't make it a cliche, it's only something that can really be articulated in a shorthand that makes it a cartoon of itself.

Such is the nature of sex, though, I think. The bastards have never let us figure out how to talk about it.

 

[MisterSir]

I do actually have a question I'd like to ask, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that won't sound judgemental (this seems to have been a problem recently, I had people reading too much into things I said in the size thread). What, if anything, is wrong with the attitude: "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?"

 

[Netzach]

I do actually have a question I'd like to ask, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that won't sound judgemental (this seems to have been a problem recently, I had people reading too much into things I said in the size thread). What, if anything, is wrong with the attitude: "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?"

Nothing whatsoever. This isn't about someone's desire being bad, it's about the level to which one is expected to fit standards of people they're not even in relationships with.

I have the exact understanding with my slave, myself.

The problem is when that bleeds out onto other people's world, not you and your sub.

It isn't the only acceptable attitude to carry around, it doesn't make someone who doesn't share that worldview this horrible untouchable NON SUBMISSIVE - which is what a lot of people have inflicted on them the minute they go to a club to meet like minds.

You can want anything under the sun you want.

Just like someone else can want to have her presentation left the fuck alone.

 

[00Syd]

I do actually have a question I'd like to ask, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that won't sound judgemental (this seems to have been a problem recently, I had people reading too much into things I said in the size thread). What, if anything, is wrong with the attitude: "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?"

In my mind: nothing - as long as that's what she wants, too. If that's your relationship, fine. If she is the type of person who enjoys putting your desires ahead of her own, all systems go.

But if someone said that to me, I wouldn't put your desires ahead of mine and I would complain. So, since that's something you want, we obviously wouldn't be a good match

Like Netz said, the problem comes when this is an expectation put on to everybody else.

 

[ZRT]

It seems to me that many of the dominants who are described in these forums are shallow, exploitative, narcissistic little shits. Of course, I may also be a shallow, exploitative, narcissistic little shit - but I don't see myself that way!

It's the wannabe boss complex, way I see it. Some people are born leaders, some learn to become decent leaders, some just want the prestige of being a boss without ever actually accepting the responsibility that comes with it.

Being large and in charge can be a damn awesome feeling. But it also should be very, very sobering when one takes the potential consequences into account.

I feel like saying this, while comforting, is sort of like putting a band-aid onto a gaping wound. Its like, okay, but what about if the very way you are submissive, not the aspects of you that are submissive, but the way in which your submission manifests itself does not fit into the very definition of the word submission. Its not like, oh I'm missing some of the traits that often submissives have, its like I look into the dictionary at the word submissive and the way I am that label does not fit its definition.

I think about that and its one big monumental moment of "Well, FUCK."

And yeah, this is all superficial labels and yeah yeah who cares about labels, no label fits everyone, do what you want, etc. etc. etc. but when your understanding of yourself does not fit into the world around you it creates the potential for some serious mind-fuckery. It doesn't matter how aware of myself I am, how much I know that labels don't matter, how much I'm intellectually aware of what is important, I'm still running into these walls, because they are there in the world, and not even my own intellectual self awareness is strong enough to break through them.

I'll give you the answer that I would've hated to hear at your age: patience.

I was totally in the dark about a lot of aspects of myself back then. And if somebody had given me the answers they wouldn't have really meant a damn thing because it's the sort of thing that you have to first intellectually work out, and then come to emotionally accept.

So we can't answer your question for you. It is something that's going to have to be your journey. But what I feel and wish fervently could improve your mood is that you're not fundamentally -wrong- in anything I've seen of you. You're confused, and that's the human condition. I still do things myself that I wonder at, and I still have aspects of myself that I'm not fond of.

You're on the right road, you're working hard to figure things out, and I really wish there was more I could tell you to make it easier.

And I mean, I'm sorry, but I honestly have a hard time believing anyone that says that they are able to ignore labels and expectations and just be themselves without any difficulty. This is really difficult shit that's completely surrounding each and every one of us from every side. We're saturated with it and its impossible to escape completely.

Netz and I can't be the only people who are frustrated by this.

Oh, I'm human. I do have a certain desire to be accepted. I do change my behaviors to some extent to fit in, even if it's just temporarily. It's just a matter of what I'm willing to compromise on and what I'm not willing to compromise on. My latter list is large enough that I have to either reject a lot of the social norms or else make myself miserable for not complying with them.

It can make life lonely. I've always been that 'alone in the crowd' kind of guy. But for my own part, being true to myself has been more important that fitting in socially. So how you balance that is something you're going to have to determine.

 

[MisterSir]

I think I get it. The problem's not in the views individual PYL and pyls hold, it's when they try to...push, I guess would be the right word, when they try to push these views onto people with views of their own that problems arise. Am I close to the mark?

 

[Netzach]

I think I get it. The problem's not in the views individual PYL and pyls hold, it's when they try to...push, I guess would be the right word, when they try to push these views onto people with views of their own that problems arise. Am I close to the mark?

Right, or even more mildly and more surreptitiously, when everyone around assumes that if someone is a ________ she likes or is like _________.

 

[Netzach]

It's the wannabe boss complex, way I see it. Some people are born leaders, some learn to become decent leaders, some just want the prestige of being a boss without ever actually accepting the responsibility that comes with it.

Being large and in charge can be a damn awesome feeling. But it also should be very, very sobering when one takes the potential consequences into account.



I'll give you the answer that I would've hated to hear at your age: patience.

I was totally in the dark about a lot of aspects of myself back then. And if somebody had given me the answers they wouldn't have really meant a damn thing because it's the sort of thing that you have to first intellectually work out, and then come to emotionally accept.

So we can't answer your question for you. It is something that's going to have to be your journey. But what I feel and wish fervently could improve your mood is that you're not fundamentally -wrong- in anything I've seen of you. You're confused, and that's the human condition. I still do things myself that I wonder at, and I still have aspects of myself that I'm not fond of.

You're on the right road, you're working hard to figure things out, and I really wish there was more I could tell you to make it easier.



Oh, I'm human. I do have a certain desire to be accepted. I do change my behaviors to some extent to fit in, even if it's just temporarily. It's just a matter of what I'm willing to compromise on and what I'm not willing to compromise on. My latter list is large enough that I have to either reject a lot of the social norms or else make myself miserable for not complying with them.

It can make life lonely. I've always been that 'alone in the crowd' kind of guy. But for my own part, being true to myself has been more important that fitting in socially. So how you balance that is something you're going to have to determine.

I have to agree. This gets much less agonizing at 35 than it was at 25, and that's all I can really offer. Super annoying to say.

It's still interesting to me, though. I love a good bitchfest about things like this, it reminds me I'm not crazy.

 

[ZRT]

It's still interesting to me, though. I love a good bitchfest about things like this, it reminds me I'm not crazy.

It serves an even better function than that. Societal norms should be tested regularly to demonstrate whether or not they have a viable purpose or if it's just cliquish snobbery, intended or unintended.

 

[Sir Victor]

I know the true answer is anything that the Dominant wants their submissive to wear.
BUT what is sexy to a Dominant? What do Dominants like to see their submissives wear? A bra and panty set? Corsets? Stockings? Is there any good and cheap (times are hard!) sites to get the submissive look?
Thanks to all in advance for answers!

Depends on my mood, sometimes I like her classy sexy, other times a bit, or a lot more provocative.

It is a serious turn on for me, however I have experienced subs that were very touchy about the subject. I've finally come to the conclusion that what we wear is a major part of our identity, and for some it can be a very sensitive topic with a lot of friction or resistance. On the other hand there are subs that love to dress for me, just to please.

Why do some assume that we automatically have bad taste? She might actually like what I choose for her.

I once took a young lady out to buy her an outfit for a business Christmas party that I was not attending. I saw an outfit, said this is it, she tried it on and looked spectacular in it, but didn't like it - not hip enough she thought. She wore it and got 5 or 10 compliments - then she loved the outfit.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Reading through the rest of this thread, I can see I've filed 'dressing for my PYL' as 'not that important in the scheme of things.' I also think that self-certified dominants can get hung up on stuff like this and end up so bogged down in the trivial demands they think they ought to make, that the dynamic as a whole suffers or lacks depth.

When I was single and perusing the BDSM Personals Forum, I read post after post of this shit. Guys post a list of expectations such as dressing according to instructions and in focusing on the details, they miss the bigger picture, the psychological depth of D/s. They talk about D/s as though it's an ongoing piece of erotic fiction rather than a lifestyle that must dovetail with the real world. A lot of guys stick a list of requirements up that could have been lifted straight from the unwritten book of BDSM clichés. There are people who, no matter how alternative and different they try to be, simply pick out a more unusual set of societal rules to conform to.

To be honest, aside for dressing up for play, having my clothing choices managed for me is just so not feasible. I'm vegan so I don't wear leather, wool or other animal derived materials. I suffer from eczema and urticaria so some synthetic fabrics irritate my skin and if I am suffering from a break-out, nobody on planet Earth (other than my PYL) sees my legs or arms. I don't have a particularly feminine style or the patience to spend my life in skirts and heels at the behest of some guy who gets to swagger around in comfy clothes. Although some of my wardrobe is a little emo/goth in style and could arguably be called BDSM-esque, it's mixed in with hippy/eco-friendly/ethically aware or fairtrade attire, laid back rock/metal clothes, smart casual stuff, smart business stuff and so on. I can do classy and sophisticated when required but you will never, ever see me in pink, lilac, powder blue, designer labels or anything twee and sparkly. If you don't like it, tough. It's who I am and the kind of first impression that I want to present to the world.

I am not someone who could cope with micro-management. I see things like that as an erosion of personal identity. If I'm having a fat day or am on my period, commanding me to wear head to toe lycra (spandex) will not elicit optimum service from your property. Controlling my appearance like that is no different to me than sticking an orange jumpsuit on a prison inmate.

 

[ZRT]

When I was single and perusing the BDSM Personals Forum, I read post after post of this shit. Guys post a list of expectations such as dressing according to instructions and in focusing on the details, they miss the bigger picture, the psychological depth of D/s. They talk about D/s as though it's an ongoing piece of erotic fiction rather than a lifestyle that must dovetail with the real world. A lot of guys stick a list of requirements up that could have been lifted straight from the unwritten book of BDSM clichés. There are people who, no matter how alternative and different they try to be, simply pick out a more unusual set of societal rules to conform to.

That just cries out for the return of the masterpiece.

PM provided courtesy of Syd, translation into legible paragraphs provided courtesy of MisterSir, who bravely waded into the depths of this no-paragraph monstrosity to at least render it into some form of readability. A braver man than I will ever be, MisterSir.

I am pretty big on rules and protocol here are some of what to expect from me.

You will always refer to my me as sir for now, when the time comes master. In public or when were around non-vanilla friends my name is ok. When talking to others in the lifestyle and referring to me, You refer to me as 'My Master' or 'My Owner' and always to refer to yourself as 'Slave', 'Pet', 'Submissive', or my 'Property'.

You must wear your collar at all times, even in public. A collar suitable for work and public will be provided for you by me when deemed necessary. When we are home you will wear a short leash attached to the collar at all times, and at the discretion of me, you might also be kept at the end of a chain lead. Upon arriving home you are to immediately to kneel offer yourself, then I'll place on cuffs and leash, you may be restrained, caged, or leashed at any time and in any place at the discretion of me.

You will trust my judgement and shall not question me in these matters. It is also your place to gratefully accept any and all types of; clothing, lingerie, restraints, chains, cuffs, cages, harnesses, blindfolds, gags, muzzles, vibrators, dildoes, plugs, bindings, or chastity devices that I choose to use on you or place about you. If you are not ready for bed by the time I get into bed to sleep then you shall automatically spend the night wearing a leash sleeping on a pad or rug beside the bed. I may also, at my discretion and at any time, choose for you to sleep in any other situation that I desire.

You are not allowed to sit on the furniture , when I am in the room your place is to kneel just in front of, or to the side of my feet unless you are given permission to sit on the furniture or I invite you to join me. Also when I am in the bed your not allowed in until you kneel by it and ask permission or I give it. When visiting friends or having friends over who know of our situation, the same rules will still apply.

You may purchase your own clothes, but must return anything I do not like or think should be kept. You may only wear lingerie that I like and then only with my permission, you are not allowed to eat until my plate and drink are made. You wait until I have tasted it and its to my liking then you may eat, you will keep the home clean and well-kept.

You will be given a schedule to follow with different chores on different days of the week - This schedule will be made to allow you the best use of your time so that you may finish faster and not have too much to do in any one day and will be periodically adjusted to allow for your work or vanilla plans. Falling behind without good reason (such as illness) is justification for punishment. I will make this schedule to help avoid things "piling up" on you. Your schedule, outside of work , must be approved of and/or will be determined by me, this will include; chores, shopping, going out, phone time, online time, private time, bathing time, exercise time, dinner time, and any other times or schedules that I deem appropriate.

You must ask for permission to orgasm. You can masturbate when I am away, but must tell me about it when we talk. When I am away you are only allowed 2 orgasms per week and must report on each time. You are required to maintain my property (yourself) in top condition at all times and must adhere to the following- a) You must shower or bathe at least once daily. b) You must keep yourself clean shaven at all times or the shaving I desire. c) Finger and toenails must be properly cared for and manicured. d) You are expected to spend a minimum of at least a half-hour each day working out or exercising in some form.

You must keep a brief daily log of your days activities, and you must also report to me each night on the number of cigarettes you smoked during the day and shall present myself for punishment for each one beyond the set limit I allow you to smoke , You will answer any questions asked of you by me immediately, thoroughly, and clearly. You must understand that holding back any information from me is considered lying. You will never to keep secrets from my me.

Furthermore, you will NEVER respond by saying "oh, nothing" or use other such vague answers when I ask what you are thinking or feeling, and if something is bothering you, you are to talk to me about it, you are NEVER to keep it held within no matter how much you may feel you want to.

You will not serve another Dominant in any way they are to be treated with a little respect, but if they ask for your service or help in any way you are to politely inform them that they must ask me. You shall accept and display the marks and ornaments that I choose to place on you, including permanent ones.

As I feel you are ready sometime in the future deemed appropriate by me when schedules of work and time allow, you will accept a period of intense training aimed toward the goal of breaking you of your remaining inhibitions and undesirable habits, then retraining you to more fully accept your place as my property and learn to serve me better. This time period of this training will be determined by me and may be lengthened or shortened depending upon your progress within a pre-set minimum and maximum time-frame.

During this time you will be continually restrained and controlled, you will be kept isolated from outside influences, you will be trained by me as I see fit and will be taught to respond to any and all commands instantly and unquestioningly - I may use any means I see fit to train you to my satisfaction. You will accept that you will not be able to stop or cancel this training until I deem it is complete, or the maximum time limit has been reached no matter how much you may wish to and further acknowledge now that any pleas on your part to end the training or be released will be ignored until the maximum time limit is reached or until I have determined that you are trained to my satisfaction.

Finally, you will have acknowledged the following; a) I don't WANT to make decisions. b) You want to give me full and total control over yourself and you will trust me to make the right decisions for you/us, and, as best you can, will never second guess those decisions... A Master is someone whom you trust totally, and part of that for yourself is giving up ALL control. In return I promise to take care of you as my property and to teach and train you to learn to be a better slave and pet, never to abuse you but to help you learn to expand your own limits as a submissive and slave and be a better girl for me!

Yes, this was originally one giant wall of text with no paragraphs. It also defines 'the sound of somebody jacking off into your ear.'

(Waits for somebody to say 'No, that sounds entirely different.')

 

[myinnerslut]

Yes, this was originally one giant wall of text with no paragraphs. It also defines 'the sound of somebody jacking off into your ear.'

no, that sounds entirely different

 

[00Syd]

That just cries out for the return of the masterpiece.

PM provided courtesy of Syd, translation into legible paragraphs provided courtesy of MisterSir, who bravely waded into the depths of this no-paragraph monstrosity to at least render it into some form of readability. A braver man than I will ever be, MisterSir.



Yes, this was originally one giant wall of text with no paragraphs. It also defines 'the sound of somebody jacking off into your ear.'

(Waits for somebody to say 'No, that sounds entirely different.')

ROFL

My mind went straight there, too.

 

[Netzach]

How the hell does anyone have the short term memory to know if rule 51-A is broken?

I would want that from military and police at most.

Sometimes I make up rule 51 A on the fly and decide it's been broken. That's more my style.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I do actually have a question I'd like to ask, but I'm having trouble phrasing it in a way that won't sound judgemental (this seems to have been a problem recently, I had people reading too much into things I said in the size thread). What, if anything, is wrong with the attitude: "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?"

It's at best shallow, narcissistic and exploitative, at worst simply thuggish?

'Your sub' is another adult human being (at least, we hope so) with whom you negotiate a relationship which suits both of you (again, at least, we hope so). Now, you may know in advance (I certainly do) that there are parameters around the sort of person with whom you want to enter into a relationship, and those parameters may include a degree of submissiveness.

If you rephrased that, and said 'I'm only interested in women who wish to put my desires ahead of hers', then that would still be shallow and narcissistic, but less exploitative. But suppose you find a woman who matches your parameters, and establish a relationship with her, and over time she changes so that some of the time she demands to have her desires respected, what do you do? Do you terminate the relationship? Or do you renegotiate it?

Beyond that, some women are damaged by upbringing or trauma to lack self-confidence and to feel the need to be punished for imagined wrong doing. Such women are very easily persuaded into abusive relationships. Are you looking for an already damaged woman, so you can damage her worse?

 

[ecstaticsub]

It's at best shallow, narcissistic and exploitative, at worst simply thuggish?

'Your sub' is another adult human being (at least, we hope so) with whom you negotiate a relationship which suits both of you (again, at least, we hope so). Now, you may know in advance (I certainly do) that there are parameters around the sort of person with whom you want to enter into a relationship, and those parameters may include a degree of submissiveness.

If you rephrased that, and said 'I'm only interested in women who wish to put my desires ahead of hers', then that would still be shallow and narcissistic, but less exploitative. But suppose you find a woman who matches your parameters, and establish a relationship with her, and over time she changes so that some of the time she demands to have her desires respected, what do you do? Do you terminate the relationship? Or do you renegotiate it?

Beyond that, some women are damaged by upbringing or trauma to lack self-confidence and to feel the need to be punished for imagined wrong doing. Such women are very easily persuaded into abusive relationships. Are you looking for an already damaged woman, so you can damage her worse?

Why is "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?" any different then most other requirements than many PYLs have for their pyls.

Such as my sub will let me beat her when ever I feel like it, or will suck my dick when I order her to, or every morning have a cup of coffee ready and waiting for me etc etc?

Of course the pm ZRT posted shows how extreme and off into fantasy world some PYLs can be but I don't see a wish for a submissive to conform to their PYLs standards of dress as being any different than any other request. if a submissive doesn't like it, then it can be a hard limit and go from there.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Why is "my sub will wear whatever I want her to wear, and do it without complaining, because it's what I want and she should put my desires ahead of hers?" any different then most other requirements than many PYLs have for their pyls. (snip)

Of course the pm ZRT posted shows how extreme and off into fantasy world some PYLs can be but I don't see a wish for a submissive to conform to their PYLs standards of dress as being any different than any other request. if a submissive doesn't like it, then it can be a hard limit and go from there.

Well, I think the thing that sticks in my throat (if you'll forgive the allusion) is 'she should put my desires before hers'. Why the fuck should she? That's not language I understand in any relationship between adults. Where is the equal requirement on the PYL to put the pyl's desires first? It seems to me that a healthy adult relationship, whether D/S or vanilla flavoured, requires both parties to be working on making sure the other party's needs are met. Not necessarily all of the time, but at least reciprocally.

Now, of course, in a D/S relationship, one of the dynamics is that the pyl has a desire to submit, or to serve, or to be used roughly, or to be bound, or to be punished, or, perhaps, all of these. So in giving her an opportunity to express these needs and play out these behaviours the PYL may be being caring and supportive.

But the message I've been hearing in this thread is 'the submissive should do whatever the dominant demands, and should sublimate her own needs completely' with no reciprocal care or concern. And that isn't adult behaviour, on either side of the equation.

If I'm missing something here, folks, I apologise. But 'she has to serve me' is not pretty behaviour.

 

[Netzach]

Well, I think the thing that sticks in my throat (if you'll forgive the allusion) is 'she should put my desires before hers'. Why the fuck should she? That's not language I understand in any relationship between adults. Where is the equal requirement on the PYL to put the pyl's desires first? It seems to me that a healthy adult relationship, whether D/S or vanilla flavoured, requires both parties to be working on making sure the other party's needs are met. Not necessarily all of the time, but at least reciprocally.

Now, of course, in a D/S relationship, one of the dynamics is that the pyl has a desire to submit, or to serve, or to be used roughly, or to be bound, or to be punished, or, perhaps, all of these. So in giving her an opportunity to express these needs and play out these behaviours the PYL may be being caring and supportive.

But the message I've been hearing in this thread is 'the submissive should do whatever the dominant demands, and should sublimate her own needs completely' with no reciprocal care or concern. And that isn't adult behaviour, on either side of the equation.

If I'm missing something here, folks, I apologise. But 'she has to serve me' is not pretty behaviour.

It's not pretty, but egalitarian isn't the answer to all relationships. Why the fuck should she? Because she's as likely to place that "I wish to obey you" booty call as he is, no?

My slave's desires are secondary to the relationship I have with him. His *needs* however are first. There are certain things I'm not going to mess with because they would displace his needs. There are certain things I'm not interested in making a point of. However, you can bet your bippy that he will "sublimate his desire and do whatever I want" should I decide the issue warrants that.

How do I know his needs? Well, communication, obviously. And I don't subscribe to the dismal view that all anyone really needs is water, a gun, and rabbits.

People's needs are different. For some people dressing autonomy is a need, for others a desire and thus more flexible. For me and for him, this decidedly unequal form of interaction is a necessary outlet in life.

 

[MasterAlpha]

nothing

in the home, just her collar, anywhere else, whatever she wants, subbies do have their own minds after all.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, I think the thing that sticks in my throat (if you'll forgive the allusion) is 'she should put my desires before hers'. Why the fuck should she? That's not language I understand in any relationship between adults. Where is the equal requirement on the PYL to put the pyl's desires first? It seems to me that a healthy adult relationship, whether D/S or vanilla flavoured, requires both parties to be working on making sure the other party's needs are met. Not necessarily all of the time, but at least reciprocally.

Now, of course, in a D/S relationship, one of the dynamics is that the pyl has a desire to submit, or to serve, or to be used roughly, or to be bound, or to be punished, or, perhaps, all of these. So in giving her an opportunity to express these needs and play out these behaviours the PYL may be being caring and supportive.

But the message I've been hearing in this thread is 'the submissive should do whatever the dominant demands, and should sublimate her own needs completely' with no reciprocal care or concern. And that isn't adult behaviour, on either side of the equation.

If I'm missing something here, folks, I apologise. But 'she has to serve me' is not pretty behaviour.

Let's set aside adult vs. childish, pretty vs. ugly judgments, and focus on realistic vs. unsustainable here.

In any relationship between two people, decisions have to be made. Who's taking out the trash? Where are we going for dinner? When are we having sex, and what kind of sex will we be having?

As a practical matter, in a relationship with me, "she should put my desires before hers" means: If I choose to, I have the right to make all of those decisions and she does not have the right to refuse. Sometimes she'll appreciate my decisions and sometimes she won't like them at all. But that's the deal she signs on for, and that's the way it goes. Not only do I expect her to comply, I expect her to do so without giving me shit.

Also a practical matter, in making those decisions I've got to keep the big picture in mind. As a human being, every woman has needs and desires. If those are never addressed adequately, then our relationship will not be sustainable.

I may wake up in the middle of the night and demand a blowjob before I roll over and go back to sleep. She may have a strong desire for sleep and even resent being awakened, but that's irrelevant in the moment. I expect her to comply.

If these sleep-interrupting demands for blowjobs occur every once in a while, there won't be a problem. However, if they occur night after night after night, then she'd become exhausted and irritable and rightfully pissed off. I'd deserve it when she gets disgusted and takes a walk.

As for your question: Why the fuck should she? The answer is: partly because it suits her nature to have someone else in charge in the context of a personal relationship, and partly because I make a conscious effort to address her needs in return. Not in the moment, perhaps, but overall.

 

[Mistress_Belladonna]

What does a Dominant like to see on their sub? What would make the Dominant just want to lose all control and go "Lady Ga-Ga" over their sub?

Hmmmm.... I would love to see my sub in a pair of jeans with a white button-down shirt untucked with several buttons undone, the cuffs rolled up a little.... or no shirt. ;-)

He likes relaxed fit jeans but I'm going to get him in at least ONE pair of jeans that really hug his awesome ass... *grin* Then I'll have LOTS of fun getting him out of them! ;-)

 

[JMohegan]

Now, I know that submission comes in all different forms, and if dressing up for someone isn't my thing, then that doesn't make me any less submissive, but when its commonly expected that not only will a submissive dress the way her PYL tells her, but get dripping wet at the thought, to not enjoy doing it causes huge red alarm bells to go off in my mind and causes me to start questioning my own orientation.

People who get dripping wet when told to head out in a short skirt sans panties are people who get off on humiliation or already had a desire to dress that way. The D's orders just give them cover. A reason, or excuse, for doing so.

D-types who try to change the fundamental orientation of a partner are not going to succeed in the long run.

D-types who recognize and appreciate the essence and fundamental identity of a partner earn trust and loyalty for doing so.

On a related note, see this story. Very, very hot.

 

[eastern sun]

I feel like that isn't even it. I feel like its more fundamental, like I don't even want to so things to please someone else. Sublimating my desires is incredibly, incredibly difficult for me. I don't even want to. I think about myself, I think about what I want, and when my PYL's desires don't run parallel to mine and he wants me to do something that I don't want to do, I don't often enjoy it. I don't want to do it. Most of the time I will do it. But I don't want to. So its sort of like, its not even that my submissive desires conflict with me need to be true to myself, its that my submissive desires manifest themselves in such a completely different way than is usual that I don't even have a vocabulary to discuss them with. I can't talk about myself as being anything, only about what I'm not.

I'm like this, too, Syd.

My husband, looking over my shoulder, wants me to add that he often knows my own desires better than I do. (I think he means that though I may resist something at first, I often enjoy the outcome more than I think I will.)

I don't see submission as a process of sublimating one's own desires. I see submission as a desire in itself, from which certain actions follow.

 

[Netzach]

I hear variations of "I know her better than she knows herself" a lot.

As someone who prefers to be large and in charge, I've realized that this was just a bad-ass way of saying I'm really good at educated inference.