What a sub wears?

[Keroin]

Exactly. The one time that I went to a public playspace here in Chicago I word dark chinos and a blue short-sleeved turtleneck (not particularly dark in color, btw). I'd have worn a button-down oxford shirt with rolled up sleeves or perhaps a long-sleeve turtleneck had it been a cooler time of year. I don't imagine that I will ever be seen anywhere, public or private, wearing the "traditional" dark leather garb. It. Just. Isn't. Me.

Of course, I also hold the opinion that if I'm going to advertise my kink by my selection of public venue, then my evening out is all about being the real me. That means that I dress like me. Simple as that.

It's been quite a few years since I visited a kink club or organized group, but I can tell you from personal experience that a guy in jeans and a button down Oxford shirt rolled up at the sleeves was rarely going to blend.

A lot of people are turned off by the stereotypical trappings of kink.

But power and pain have nothing at all to do with latex or slutwear or leather. I understand this now. There are a whole lot of kinky people out there flying under the radar, invisible not just to conventional society, but also to the world of stylized kink because they don't adopt the mores of modern BDSM.

It sounds like you would have been the people I would have been interested in talking to at one of those clubs. LOL.

I own not a scrap of fetish wear, no collar, nothing at all that would advertise my inclinations. I've never been to a kink or fetish club. I just can't ever imagine fitting in.

For those who enjoy the look, whatever its origins, good on you! Not for me though.

 

[WriterDom]

Soft cotton PJs I like. Don't know why. Just a long T shirt with nothing underneath. There is a story behind that. I love dresses. Cotton spring dresses. Nothing too fancy.

 

[midwestyankee]

To answer the OP - it depends on the situation, time, and place. Above all, she is a woman with her own well-refined taste in clothing. In public, perhaps we add a choker necklace of pearls as a sort of formal collar. In private, for playtime and such, it's just the collar and maybe a few well-earned tear stains on her cheeks.

 

[Homburg]

But who gave them that idea? That's the question. Where did this start?

From what I've seen, and I could be wrong, it was an extension of the Leather culture post-WWII. Lots of men in black leather riding motorcycles and beating the hell out of each other. Black leather became de riguer for the scene, and later morphed into basic black for convenience and economic's sake.

It's been quite a few years since I visited a kink club or organized group, but I can tell you from personal experience that a guy in jeans and a button down Oxford shirt rolled up at the sleeves was rarely going to blend.

In my case, it was black jeans/khakis, and a black or grey dress shirt. Whee.

Perhaps fetish clubs influence a lot of people who are introduced to kink through this venue. A quick google found this and this. The stated rationale for the dress codes presented may provide insight into the origin of stereotypes for attire.

I've read a dress-code like that that went on to explain why. Well, why beyond the usual "it's more sexy" argument. Their take was that it strongly prevented the gawkers. If streetwear was allowed, the gawkers could come in. It becomes a weeding process, keeping out the uninvolved, but curious.

A lot of people are turned off by the stereotypical trappings of kink.

But power and pain have nothing at all to do with latex or slutwear or leather. There are a whole lot of kinky people out there flying under the radar, invisible not just to conventional society, but also to the world of stylized kink because they don't adopt the mores of modern BDSM.

Thus the DD and TIH crowds.

--

I get really pissy about munches being interpreted as "as much kink as street legal will allow." Uh, no, I want plausible deniability to be the whole point for that, thanks.

One of the reasons I like my local group is how dress-down munches are. The closest thing is the one guy that wears a (simple) chainmail collar/choker. Whee. And, in his case, he's this rasty old dude with tattoos VietNam vet T-shirts and the like. Nobody looks twice at his neckwear, both because he is so extraordinarily casual with it, and because it just blends in with his overall presentation.


This does bring up the idea that how you wear something is as important as what that something is. There are people that can call attention to a collar by wearing it, and those for whom it is just there. The former gets noticed, the latter not so much.

 

[Homburg]

Soft cotton PJs I like. Don't know why. Just a long T shirt with nothing underneath. There is a story behind that. I love dresses. Cotton spring dresses. Nothing too fancy.

I like cotton spring dresses too.

 

[MisterSir]

Just to answer the initial question, the last thing I'm going to be concerned about with respect to my submissive is what she's wearing because generally clothes aren't such a big thing for imaginary people.

 

[rida]

The "Madonna/Whore" complex is as old as the sun... most view it as dating/marrying the "good girl", but nailing the "slut" as if they are two entirely separate personae. You know... wife and mother at home, secretary on the side, never the twain shall meet. Once Madonna becomes the whore all respect is lost; once the whore becomes the Madonna, desire wilts.

Forgive the snobbish attitude, but [to me] it lacks artistry.

Now tilt your head a bit to the left and consider an alternative view of the classic M/W complex... she is the Madonna, the Ice Princess. The cool, calm, elegant, socially pristine Lady at all times in dress, speech, mannerism... no slutty schoolgirl outfits, no micro-minis without panties... always perfectly proper through and through - even while being her Lover's Whore (literally or figuratively).

There's a very elegant [hot] dichotomy to it...

The whole "Madonna/Whore" complex is based on a dichotomy. How it is played out is what adds layers of complexity.

The nailing the slut and marrying the virgin is, perhaps, the most simple and basic one: the dichotomy is transferred outside into two different bodies, making it so that the conflicting desires can be totally compartmentalized. A typical approach for the average Joe and Jane.

What you talk about, with the Madonna and Whore cohabiting in the same woman, presenting to society the image of the "Madonna" while your lover only knows the Whore inside, brings the dichotomy side by side, forcing both side to face the reality of their opposite. Both the man and the woman have to accept their seemingly conflictual desires and in the expression and acceptance of those lies the hotness (objectification, uneasiness, submission, humiliation, and so forth). Indeed a more artistic take on it.

Personally I love to dress sexy but not slutty. I love to add an element of sexiness to the most normal office attire and play with that. How would I feel if I was forced to wear too revealing clothing? It would probably depend on whether I look good in them or not. I'm totally shallow when it comes to clothing.

Rida, this isn't a personalised attack on you; it's just that I got this far down the thread before I got irritated enough that I had to post. It feels to me that there is a lot of stereotyping of dominant men going on here. Of course, it may be the case that there are a lot of not very introspective, not very self-aware dominants out there who take their iconography pretty much from what mass culture offers them, without asking themselves the question 'OK, but what works for me?'

*snip*

Similarly, I don't actually want to expose my partner to other people. But I do want to make her believe (and fear) that I might, to push her into her discomfort zone with a perceived risk of being exposed. So, in public, even if slutty clothes worked for me, I would not want my partner to wear them. What I like my partners to wear, when we're in public but we're playing sexually, is clothes that are not especially revealing but which can easily be removed or made revealing.

*snip*

No problem, I don't take much personally

I do not judge as "inferior" or "simpleton" Dominant or submissive that enjoy the stereotypes of what they should wear. Nor I judge and look down on those that are indeed turned on by such stereotype as slutty wear and so forth. Whether they know why they enjoy such a thing or not, it is also nothing I'm going to call them on: it works for them, good for them.

Now, just to split some hair, also not personally judging/criticizing you, but would not your desire for your submissive partner to feel the fear of vulnerability still play on the same basic dichotomy? The one between the social acceptability of a proper dress (Madonna) with the naughtiness of no underwear (Whore)? Isn't it just a different subtle way to play it out?

*snip*
I've read a dress-code like that that went on to explain why. Well, why beyond the usual "it's more sexy" argument. Their take was that it strongly prevented the gawkers. If streetwear was allowed, the gawkers could come in. It becomes a weeding process, keeping out the uninvolved, but curious.

Yes, that seems to be the reason why the Fetish Balls and parties I've seen here (have not gone yet) have a very strict Fetish Dress Code.
However they are also very strict on the fact that their monthly meet (closest thing to a munch I could find ... have not gone yet either) has to be in totally normal clothing, since it is a public venue. Kinky friendly but still public.

 

[SimonBrooke]

As for boring lovers, the world is full of them. Most people don't put much consideration into their sexuality, because of how firmly the taboos are rooted.

Touché, and, if I may say so, an excellent riposte.

 

[JMohegan]

Thus the DD and TIH crowds.

No, I'm talking about people who don't belong to any sexual lifestyle crowd whatsoever.

They don't need a website or munch or books or organized clubs to tell them what to do. They're off on their own, doing their own thing.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Now, just to split some hair, also not personally judging/criticizing you, but would not your desire for your submissive partner to feel the fear of vulnerability still play on the same basic dichotomy? The one between the social acceptability of a proper dress (Madonna) with the naughtiness of no underwear (Whore)? Isn't it just a different subtle way to play it out?

OK, perhaps, but it doesn't seem that way to me. To me, 'whore' says 'a woman who is readily available to more or less anyone'. That is emphatically not a turn on to me. The biggest turn on is to believe (however deludedly) that you do something special for your partner, that there is no-one else who could affect her the way you affect her, that she has a very strong sense of her own worth and her own dignity which is only overcome by the effect you have on her. Neither 'madonna' nor 'whore' has any echoes in my mind as desirable. But, again, I could be deluding myself.

(snip and rearrange)

Personally I love to dress sexy but not slutty. I love to add an element of sexiness to the most normal office attire and play with that. How would I feel if I was forced to wear too revealing clothing? It would probably depend on whether I look good in them or not. I'm totally shallow when it comes to clothing.

Absolutely - modulo the fact that what 'looks sexy' is something which is driven by the context of your - and your partners' - taste.

One of the things which really bother me about the way society is going is I see us sliding towards a new era of post-Victorian repression, that there is over the decades more and more social pressure against sexual variety and that this is partly represented by increasing public hostility to relaxed and revealing clothes. So there may be a political reason for choosing to 'dress sexier' - but sexier and slutty are not necessarily the same thing at all. Certainly not the conventional iconography of 'slutty'.

A lot of people are turned off by the stereotypical trappings of kink.

But power and pain have nothing at all to do with latex or slutwear or leather. There are a whole lot of kinky people out there flying under the radar, invisible not just to conventional society, but also to the world of stylized kink because they don't adopt the mores of modern BDSM.

This is true, but raises an interesting and (to me) pertinent problem. How do we recognise one another?

I'm just coming out of a long term relationship, it'll be a while before I''m ready for another. But one of the things I've learned is that relationships work better if the partners' erotic tastes mesh reasonably well; and what I'm feeling just now is that I'd rather not have a relationship at all than have one in which I'm unable to express myself sexually. So my next partner will be someone who has (and acknowledges) a slight kink towards submissiveness. But how do I recognise her? And how do I discreetly signal to her that I have the reciprocal kink? The gay and lesbian communities seem to have by necessity over the years developed signals (and they're also now in many places sufficiently open and established that they no longer particularly need them), but, apart from the iconography we all on this thread seem to reject, what signals are there?

 

[JMohegan]

This is true, but raises an interesting and (to me) pertinent problem. How do we recognise one another?

I'm just coming out of a long term relationship, it'll be a while before I''m ready for another. But one of the things I've learned is that relationships work better if the partners' erotic tastes mesh reasonably well; and what I'm feeling just now is that I'd rather not have a relationship at all than have one in which I'm unable to express myself sexually. So my next partner will be someone who has (and acknowledges) a slight kink towards submissiveness. But how do I recognise her? And how do I discreetly signal to her that I have the reciprocal kink? The gay and lesbian communities seem to have by necessity over the years developed signals (and they're also now in many places sufficiently open and established that they no longer particularly need them), but, apart from the iconography we all on this thread seem to reject, what signals are there?

I see "submissiveness" as a behavioral trait, manifested in the way one person responds to another. I also see it as person specific, like attraction or arousal.

I won't be able to tell if a woman has potential by watching her from across the room. But if I go up and start talking to her, I'll begin processing a dozen subtle clues as to how she responds to me. On a date, the clues multiply. And even the simplest physical interaction can be predictive as to pliancy in bed.

As for the signals I'd be sending - my natural way of treating women I find attractive. That's it. It doesn't need a label or an explanation; she'll either respond well to me, as an individual, or not.

 

[ZRT]

Touché, and, if I may say so, an excellent riposte.

I wasn't aware that we were fencing, good sir. Next time I'll bring my epee instead of the machete I usually carry around.

 

[ShyVixen]

I know the true answer is anything that the Dominant wants their submissive to wear.
BUT what is sexy to a Dominant? What do Dominants like to see their submissives wear? A bra and panty set? Corsets? Stockings? Is there any good and cheap (times are hard!) sites to get the submissive look?
Thanks to all in advance for answers!

Following on from what everyone has said - there isn't a 'submissive' look. it varies from person to person/ relationship to relationship.

From a personal point of view, during a scene, I enjoy wearing corsets and stockings as they make me most feel sexy and I know my PYL finds that type of lingerie appealing.

For everyday clothing I tend to wear jeans and t-shirts, but feel sexiest in my 'office' clothing - fitted pants and blouses, skirts and sweater sets. Yet I do tend to add certain things to my clothing if I'm seeing my PYL that I know he might like and find appealing - not always, but sometimes.

I don't believe you can get a submissive to fit a clothing mold. I know it would be awful if a Dominant made me wear micro minis and no panties, or numerous items of clothing that tend to be all the rage in a particular season. It would just make me feel un-sexy.

 

[00Syd]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread even though it is a topic I'm really interested in, I just sort of skimmed through the last couple of pages (hard to find time while jetsetting around Europe, you know how it is). I just wanted to pop in with a thought thats been stewing around, and this isn't directed at anyone or anything or whatever, but just a thought.

I find it really frustrating when I see stuff like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission." because then I think, what would I do if someone asked me to wear something that I didn't want to wear, and I know that the last thing I would feel is submissive but I would probably do it anyway because, y'know, I'm supposed to do whatever he wants, and then be pissed off and grumpy the whole time. I know that this is what I woild probably do because I've done it. I've been asked told to wear things and have and then been grumpy the whole goddamn time.

Now, I know that submission comes in all different forms, and if dressing up for someone isn't my thing, then that doesn't make me any less submissive, but when its commonly expected that not only will a submissive dress the way her PYL tells her, but get dripping wet at the thought, to not enjoy doing it causes huge red alarm bells to go off in my mind and causes me to start questioning my own orientation. And the whole fucking problem is the fact that there are tons of common acts and traits that aren't just looked at like "oh, a lot of submissive women are like this" but like its completely expected, like "all submissive women do this." period. and all of these traits and acts, like black and red leather and latex, have become so firmly entrenched in every mention of BDSM, whether explicitly or implied (like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission") that it is impossible, at least for me, to separate it from what I know is true. Despite knowing very well that submissives come in all stripes and colors, these stereotypes and expectations are so fucking deeply entrenched that it effects me negatively and constantly causes me to question myself and it is a real source of agony and inner turmoil.

And it very well could be that I'm just weak willed or some such shit (another submissive trait, right?) that I allow these stereotypes to effect me so severely, but what can I do? Its like this automatic alarm bell, every time I do or think or feel something that goes against what I see everywhere as being "submissive."

(That started off as being a somewhat thoughtful response and just became a personal rant, sorry guys)

/rant

 

[ecstaticsub]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread even though it is a topic I'm really interested in, I just sort of skimmed through the last couple of pages (hard to find time while jetsetting around Europe, you know how it is). I just wanted to pop in with a thought thats been stewing around, and this isn't directed at anyone or anything or whatever, but just a thought.

I find it really frustrating when I see stuff like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission." because then I think, what would I do if someone asked me to wear something that I didn't want to wear, and I know that the last thing I would feel is submissive but I would probably do it anyway because, y'know, I'm supposed to do whatever he wants, and then be pissed off and grumpy the whole time. I know that this is what I woild probably do because I've done it. I've been asked told to wear things and have and then been grumpy the whole goddamn time.

Now, I know that submission comes in all different forms, and if dressing up for someone isn't my thing, then that doesn't make me any less submissive, but when its commonly expected that not only will a submissive dress the way her PYL tells her, but get dripping wet at the thought, to not enjoy doing it causes huge red alarm bells to go off in my mind and causes me to start questioning my own orientation. And the whole fucking problem is the fact that there are tons of common acts and traits that aren't just looked at like "oh, a lot of submissive women are like this" but like its completely expected, like "all submissive women do this." period. and all of these traits and acts, like black and red leather and latex, have become so firmly entrenched in every mention of BDSM, whether explicitly or implied (like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission") that it is impossible, at least for me, to separate it from what I know is true. Despite knowing very well that submissives come in all stripes and colors, these stereotypes and expectations are so fucking deeply entrenched that it effects me negatively and constantly causes me to question myself and it is a real source of agony and inner turmoil.

And it very well could be that I'm just weak willed or some such shit (another submissive trait, right?) that I allow these stereotypes to effect me so severely, but what can I do? Its like this automatic alarm bell, every time I do or think or feel something that goes against what I see everywhere as being "submissive."

(That started off as being a somewhat thoughtful response and just became a personal rant, sorry guys)

/rant

I see what you are saying but for me the "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission" is something that I honestly enjoy doing. I have never felt grumpy or uncomfortable. Wearing what I want is just not that important to me. On the occasion that he has requested something that I know would look horrible on me due to my body type, I tell him and we work things out.

I see clothing choice just as I see anal sex, or hoods or breath play--an item on a check list where you could say this or that is a hard or soft limit if needed. Just as anal sex is not a requirement to be a submissive, neither is being told what to wear.

 

[00Syd]

I see what you are saying but for me the "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission" is something that I honestly enjoy doing. I have never felt grumpy or uncomfortable. Wearing what I want is just not that important to me. On the occasion that he has requested something that I know would look horrible on me due to my body type, I tell him and we work things out.

I see clothing choice just as I see anal sex, or hoods or breath play--an item on a check list where you could say this or that is a hard or soft limit if needed. Just as anal sex is not a requirement to be a submissive, neither is being told what to wear.

I understand, and am not saying that your feelings or desires to do that aren't valid, just that they often act as a trigger for my own neurosis.

 

[ultramarineblue]

Now, I know that submission comes in all different forms, and if dressing up for someone isn't my thing, then that doesn't make me any less submissive, but when its commonly expected that not only will a submissive dress the way her PYL tells her, but get dripping wet at the thought, to not enjoy doing it causes huge red alarm bells to go off in my mind and causes me to start questioning my own orientation. And the whole fucking problem is the fact that there are tons of common acts and traits that aren't just looked at like "oh, a lot of submissive women are like this" but like its completely expected, like "all submissive women do this." period. and all of these traits and acts, like black and red leather and latex, have become so firmly entrenched in every mention of BDSM, whether explicitly or implied (like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission") that it is impossible, at least for me, to separate it from what I know is true. Despite knowing very well that submissives come in all stripes and colors, these stereotypes and expectations are so fucking deeply entrenched that it effects me negatively and constantly causes me to question myself and it is a real source of agony and inner turmoil.

And it very well could be that I'm just weak willed or some such shit (another submissive trait, right?) that I allow these stereotypes to effect me so severely, but what can I do? Its like this automatic alarm bell, every time I do or think or feel something that goes against what I see everywhere as being "submissive."

There are so many things that make me question whether or not I'm truly submissive. But then again I question myself on many other things as well.

 

[eastern sun]

I understand, and am not saying that your feelings or desires to do that aren't valid, just that they often act as a trigger for my own neurosis.

I can relate to this, Syd. I spent most of my youth very attracted to the leather scene (which represented s&m in my day), but feeling like it had nothing to do with "me." And that I would have to change too much in myself to "fit in" to that world, changes I wasn't sure I wanted to make.

It's normal to question yourself, and not a bad thing in and of itself. I suspect that your submissive desires may be conflicting with desires to be "true to yourself." I've spent years struggling with the idea that if I do something to please someone else, I am somehow weakening the strength of my own personality. Or acting out my weakest self.

Many, many years later, I can say with some confidence, that I have made so many compromises for my career, for my relationships, for my children, for my parents, for my husband, that the defining dreams of my youth are irrevocably changed. On the other hand, I believe that's simply the way life works.

You're young. You're in the process of defining yourself. Enjoy it. Allow yourself to believe that you can be everything you want to be. Then let go, and see what happens.

You may find moments when you're willing to compromise without feeling like you're in danger of losing something important, because your understanding of what's important has changed. But don't do something that feels "wrong" just because everyone else is saying they're doing it.

Peer pressure drives our economies. It is the glue that keeps our society together. But it is not a measure of truth.

 

[Homburg]

I understand, and am not saying that your feelings or desires to do that aren't valid, just that they often act as a trigger for my own neurosis.

Most people don't have as defined a style/look as you do, and that expression is pretty core to your presentation.

 

[Netzach]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread even though it is a topic I'm really interested in, I just sort of skimmed through the last couple of pages (hard to find time while jetsetting around Europe, you know how it is). I just wanted to pop in with a thought thats been stewing around, and this isn't directed at anyone or anything or whatever, but just a thought.

I find it really frustrating when I see stuff like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission." because then I think, what would I do if someone asked me to wear something that I didn't want to wear, and I know that the last thing I would feel is submissive but I would probably do it anyway because, y'know, I'm supposed to do whatever he wants, and then be pissed off and grumpy the whole time. I know that this is what I woild probably do because I've done it. I've been asked told to wear things and have and then been grumpy the whole goddamn time.

Now, I know that submission comes in all different forms, and if dressing up for someone isn't my thing, then that doesn't make me any less submissive, but when its commonly expected that not only will a submissive dress the way her PYL tells her, but get dripping wet at the thought, to not enjoy doing it causes huge red alarm bells to go off in my mind and causes me to start questioning my own orientation. And the whole fucking problem is the fact that there are tons of common acts and traits that aren't just looked at like "oh, a lot of submissive women are like this" but like its completely expected, like "all submissive women do this." period. and all of these traits and acts, like black and red leather and latex, have become so firmly entrenched in every mention of BDSM, whether explicitly or implied (like "I wear whatever I want when I'm alone but when I'm with Him I wear what he wants me to as an act of submission") that it is impossible, at least for me, to separate it from what I know is true. Despite knowing very well that submissives come in all stripes and colors, these stereotypes and expectations are so fucking deeply entrenched that it effects me negatively and constantly causes me to question myself and it is a real source of agony and inner turmoil.

And it very well could be that I'm just weak willed or some such shit (another submissive trait, right?) that I allow these stereotypes to effect me so severely, but what can I do? Its like this automatic alarm bell, every time I do or think or feel something that goes against what I see everywhere as being "submissive."

(That started off as being a somewhat thoughtful response and just became a personal rant, sorry guys)

/rant

I can't argue with this one bit. My dealbreaker was that if you wanted me to "be a girl" I would not. T knew how to treat me even then. He'd meet me dressed at gay bars and thought it was hot and elicited an actual submissive reaction instead of the multiple levels of fuck off that most people would get. The number of people who "get it" are few, but they are out there.

My investment in being "truly submissive" was never an issue, but this shit still got to me. It's like, does anyone, anyone at all, retain the least bit of specificity and personality? Everyone is flagging aggressively and hoping to get laid or their version of laid. Damn, I love your rant. I love anything that exposes some of what the crappy crap that assumptive, mythic, BS does to those of us for whom it doesn't work. And FemDom is riddled with a million such rants, believe me. If you think it matters to holy hell what YOU wear, look at FemDom sometime for a hoot.

I still see myself as a woman in love with a full range sexuality in terms of what I'm doing with T. And with my husband, in a completely novel and different way from that. And with H there's love, but there's a fundamental underlying project that's not about romance but about the outer limits of our expression and needs.

We're playing. We're figuring out what's erotic. I look at most M/f submissive expression in this culture and go "what the flying eff, I must be from Mars." I look at most F/m expression and go "Jesus, what a trainwreck." Even as someone who lived and breathed that trainwreck and knows it inside out.

It's not a question of not being submissive enough, it's a question of insisting that you're valued as is. The thing that matters to you in this case, doesn't matter the same way to other people. You construct identity through clothing in a particular fashion - some people less so. Let's say I had this super hot drag queen interested in being in service to me. Would I consider for a minute telling her what to wear?

Just hang in there, I guess that's all I can say in the way of wisdom.

 

[00Syd]

I can relate to this, Syd. I spent most of my youth very attracted to the leather scene (which represented s&m in my day), but feeling like it had nothing to do with "me." And that I would have to change too much in myself to "fit in" to that world, changes I wasn't sure I wanted to make.

It's normal to question yourself, and not a bad thing in and of itself. I suspect that your submissive desires may be conflicting with desires to be "true to yourself." I've spent years struggling with the idea that if I do something to please someone else, I am somehow weakening the strength of my own personality. Or acting out my weakest self.

Many, many years later, I can say with some confidence, that I have made so many compromises for my career, for my relationships, for my children, for my parents, for my husband, that the defining dreams of my youth are irrevocably changed. On the other hand, I believe that's simply the way life works.

You're young. You're in the process of defining yourself. Enjoy it. Allow yourself to believe that you can be everything you want to be. Then let go, and see what happens.

You may find moments when you're willing to compromise without feeling like you're in danger of losing something important, because your understanding of what's important has changed. But don't do something that feels "wrong" just because everyone else is saying they're doing it.

Peer pressure drives our economies. It is the glue that keeps our society together. But it is not a measure of truth.

I feel like that isn't even it. I feel like its more fundamental, like I don't even want to so things to please someone else. Sublimating my desires is incredibly, incredibly difficult for me. I don't even want to. I think about myself, I think about what I want, and when my PYL's desires don't run parallel to mine and he wants me to do something that I don't want to do, I don't often enjoy it. I don't want to do it. Most of the time I will do it. But I don't want to. So its sort of like, its not even that my submissive desires conflict with me need to be true to myself, its that my submissive desires manifest themselves in such a completely different way than is usual that I don't even have a vocabulary to discuss them with. I can't talk about myself as being anything, only about what I'm not.

Most people don't have as defined a style/look as you do, and that expression is pretty core to your presentation.

Sure. But isn't submissiveness as its commonly recognized all about being... well.. submissive? And sublimating your desires? Going along with everything that describes a submissive, I should want to SUBlimate myself and wear whatever my PYL wants to wear. What do I do when I don't fit into that. I mean, look at the vocabulary used to describe "submissiveness." There is no way around it, there are no alternative words. So like I said, I can't talk about myself as being anything, only about what I'm not, and so of course I end up questioning what I am.

And yeah I know, labels labels labels: who needs them? But we DO NEED THEM. I mean, I realize I'm kind of treading into some academic territory here going back to Ferdinand de Saussure and his course on General Linguistics and shit, but without signs (i.e. labels) we wouldn't even know how to think about things. I really don't think its that strange that I want to have a way to describe myself that other people will understand. This is some fundamental language shit. And when all of the vocabulary used to describe myself doesn't fit, of course I'll start questioning the label I've chosen and start looking for another one.

This fucks with my self esteem like no other.

[Fuck, sorry this is such a rambling rant you guys. I feel kind of bad just spewing all of my insecure inner-turmoil all over the board and hijacking this thread with it. Its just been on my mind a lot lately, since I've been getting more involved with Seb. My feelings of what I should be vs. what I am is a huge giant wall we both seem to keep running into, so I've been running it through my head nearly nonstop.]

I can't argue with this one bit. My dealbreaker was that if you wanted me to "be a girl" I would not. T knew how to treat me even then. He'd meet me dressed at gay bars and thought it was hot and elicited an actual submissive reaction instead of the multiple levels of fuck off that most people would get. The number of people who "get it" are few, but they are out there.

My investment in being "truly submissive" was never an issue, but this shit still got to me. It's like, does anyone, anyone at all, retain the least bit of specificity and personality? Everyone is flagging aggressively and hoping to get laid or their version of laid. Damn, I love your rant. I love anything that exposes some of what the crappy crap that assumptive, mythic, BS does to those of us for whom it doesn't work. And FemDom is riddled with a million such rants, believe me. If you think it matters to holy hell what YOU wear, look at FemDom sometime for a hoot.

I still see myself as a woman in love with a full range sexuality in terms of what I'm doing with T. And with my husband, in a completely novel and different way from that. And with H there's love, but there's a fundamental underlying project that's not about romance but about the outer limits of our expression and needs.

We're playing. We're figuring out what's erotic. I look at most M/f submissive expression in this culture and go "what the flying eff, I must be from Mars." I look at most F/m expression and go "Jesus, what a trainwreck." Even as someone who lived and breathed that trainwreck and knows it inside out.

It's not a question of not being submissive enough, it's a question of insisting that you're valued as is. The thing that matters to you in this case, doesn't matter the same way to other people. You construct identity through clothing in a particular fashion - some people less so. Let's say I had this super hot drag queen interested in being in service to me. Would I consider for a minute telling her what to wear?

Just hang in there, I guess that's all I can say in the way of wisdom.

I really appreciate this. It's hard to try to be yourself as you are when you keep running into the same walls over and over whenever you do.

I wear my normal clothes and I hit the "you can't come to this party unless your wearing FETISHwear" wall.

I do what feels right and I hit the "submissive's do this as a show of submissiveness for their PYL" wall.

Its constant. How can I not question myself with all of this BS piled up ten feet high around me?

I have looked at FemDom, and talked to a lot of people about it, and the expectations piled onto female dominants, especially young female dominants, is so completely ridiculous, maybe even more so than young female submissives. I mean, the pressure alone to turn pro? What the hell is that about? But all of the bullshit expectations on young women of any orientation on the lifestyle makes sense, since most of it is dictated by older male's and their fantasies.

 

[Netzach]

I feel like that isn't even it. I feel like its more fundamental, like I don't even want to so things to please someone else. Sublimating my desires is incredibly, incredibly difficult for me. I don't even want to. I think about myself, I think about what I want, and when my PYL's desires don't run parallel to mine and he wants me to do something that I don't want to do, I don't often enjoy it. I don't want to do it. Most of the time I will do it. But I don't want to. So its sort of like, its not even that my submissive desires conflict with me need to be true to myself, its that my submissive desires manifest themselves in such a completely different way than is usual that I don't even have a vocabulary to discuss them with. I can't talk about myself as being anything, only about what I'm not.




Sure. But isn't submissiveness as its commonly recognized all about being... well.. submissive? And sublimating your desires? Going along with everything that describes a submissive, I should want to SUBlimate myself and wear whatever my PYL wants to wear. What do I do when I don't fit into that. I mean, look at the vocabulary used to describe "submissiveness." There is no way around it, there are no alternative words. So like I said, I can't talk about myself as being anything, only about what I'm not, and so of course I end up questioning what I am.

And yeah I know, labels labels labels: who needs them? But we DO NEED THEM. I mean, I realize I'm kind of treading into some academic territory here going back to Ferdinand de Saussure and his course on General Linguistics and shit, but without signs (i.e. labels) we wouldn't even know how to think about things. I really don't think its that strange that I want to have a way to describe myself that other people will understand. This is some fundamental language shit. And when all of the vocabulary used to describe myself doesn't fit, of course I'll start questioning the label I've chosen and start looking for another one.

This fucks with my self esteem like no other.

[Fuck, sorry this is such a rambling rant you guys. I feel kind of bad just spewing all of my insecure inner-turmoil all over the board and hijacking this thread with it. Its just been on my mind a lot lately, since I've been getting more involved with Seb. My feelings of what I should be vs. what I am is a huge giant wall we both seem to keep running into, so I've been running it through my head nearly nonstop.]



I really appreciate this. It's hard to try to be yourself as you are when you keep running into the same walls over and over whenever you do.

I wear my normal clothes and I hit the "you can't come to this party unless your wearing FETISHwear" wall.

I do what feels right and I hit the "submissive's do this as a show of submissiveness for their PYL" wall.

Its constant. How can I not question myself with all of this BS piled up ten feet high around me?

I have looked at FemDom, and talked to a lot of people about it, and the expectations piled onto female dominants, especially young female dominants, is so completely ridiculous, maybe even more so than young female submissives. I mean, the pressure alone to turn pro? What the hell is that about? But all of the bullshit expectations on young women of any orientation on the lifestyle makes sense, since most of it is dictated by older male's and their fantasies.

OMG, I want this to be mandatory reading for the SM community. THIS is what you are doing to yourselves with your insistence on these cartoon norms - good, hot, interesting people are coming along and then going "fuck no, no way" before a minute passes. Good hot interesting people who read De Saussure! FUCK!


I've yet to figure out answers for this. Sadly, I've gone from involved to hermit over pretty much these issues.

What helps me is thinking about not "a Dominant" but about T. Not "a submissive" but about my husband. Really digging my fingers into my relationships and the people in them and not letting go for a minute. I've been involved with T for a decade - the willingness to do things because he likes them came after what, eight? Nine?

In the abstract there's no part of my being that "wants to sublimate my desires for other people." I'm the anti-caretaker.

 

[ZRT]

OMG, I want this to be mandatory reading for the SM community. THIS is what you are doing to yourselves with your insistence on these cartoon norms - good, hot, interesting people are coming along and then going "fuck no, no way" before a minute passes. Good hot interesting people who read De Saussure! FUCK!

This is what human communities in general do- standardize and enforce norms. It's part of the socialization process. While it does allow for the group to pool its strength to greater ends, it also crushes individualism.

Back in the Triassic era or so when I was in elementary, we had a day-long course of films (eight millimeter, no less) that covered the subject of 'growing up and fitting into the world'.

The part that always stuck with me was about social norms and the three roads one can take- either fit in with society, be an outsider who doesn't fit in, or create your own sub-sphere where you do fit in.

That's basically the choice we all have to make, at some point. Personally, I say that if the label doesn't fit, create a new one.

Maybe it'll help to remember that labels are not all-inclusive. If I had to pick a label for myself for the point of discussion, great, I like dom as a personal preference, though I suppose by the classical system I'm a master, or whatever. But the point is, I operate as I damn well please regardless of the label. Just because I order my partners around doesn't mean I order every aspect of their lives. So my label doesn't fit by some standards, and I couldn't give a flipping fuck.

Actually, come to think of it Homburg had a good point in another thread about closing his own drawers, and being unconcerned as to whether that made him less of a 'master'.

So submission in some aspects but not others can mean that you're submissive, just not superdupertotalcompletesubmissive.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Fuck, sorry this is such a rambling rant you guys. I feel kind of bad just spewing all of my insecure inner-turmoil all over the board and hijacking this thread with it. Its just been on my mind a lot lately, since I've been getting more involved with Seb. My feelings of what I should be vs. what I am is a huge giant wall we both seem to keep running into, so I've been running it through my head nearly nonstop.

It doesn't seem to me that you're rambling or incoherent. It seems to me that you're thinking about deep and primitive and complex drives and making a pretty good fist of it. I'm certainly reading what you're posting with both interest and respect...

I am in some sense a dominant - or if I'm not, I enjoy playing one. But the conventional iconography of the dominance/submission genre does absolutely nothing for me. I think that people who are thoughtful and introspective about their own sexuality are likely to find that none of the labels or stereotypes fit very comfortably.

It seems to me that many of the dominants who are described in these forums are shallow, exploitative, narcissistic little shits. Of course, I may also be a shallow, exploitative, narcissistic little shit - but I don't see myself that way!

 

[00Syd]

So submission in some aspects but not others can mean that you're submissive, just not superdupertotalcompletesubmissive.

I feel like saying this, while comforting, is sort of like putting a band-aid onto a gaping wound. Its like, okay, but what about if the very way you are submissive, not the aspects of you that are submissive, but the way in which your submission manifests itself does not fit into the very definition of the word submission. Its not like, oh I'm missing some of the traits that often submissives have, its like I look into the dictionary at the word submissive and the way I am that label does not fit its definition.

I think about that and its one big monumental moment of "Well, FUCK."

And yeah, this is all superficial labels and yeah yeah who cares about labels, no label fits everyone, do what you want, etc. etc. etc. but when your understanding of yourself does not fit into the world around you it creates the potential for some serious mind-fuckery. It doesn't matter how aware of myself I am, how much I know that labels don't matter, how much I'm intellectually aware of what is important, I'm still running into these walls, because they are there in the world, and not even my own intellectual self awareness is strong enough to break through them.

And I mean, I'm sorry, but I honestly have a hard time believing anyone that says that they are able to ignore labels and expectations and just be themselves without any difficulty. This is really difficult shit that's completely surrounding each and every one of us from every side. We're saturated with it and its impossible to escape completely.

Netz and I can't be the only people who are frustrated by this.