Understanding Submission

[thischainedpet]

I agree. I do... I "think" a lot and I see all sides of everything. Always.

Love this forum too.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Lol sorry. thanks though, see what you meant more clearly

Really? because I feel more confused than ever...

 

[midwestyankee]

Stella, this is where you distinguish yourself from the author of that wiki-like article: "Somebody is going to have to acquisece to something they otherwise wouldn't want. Or at least, that possibility is going to be there." According to the writer, some form of discomfort must be present for the relationship to qualify as D/s.

I submit (in the academic sense only, here) that there are plenty of cases of folks who would generally describe themselves in the /s part of the equation who rarely are ever challenged to acquiesce to something they wouldn't otherwise, but who often undergo experiences that under other circumstances they would find unappealing if not appalling. In the context of the relationship, some degrading humiliation in private might be deemed hawt as can be and be welcomed on some level. Yet hours before or after, degrading humiliation by the same person (the "D") under different or even public circumstances might be enough to warrant ending the relationship.

Context matters.

And what this shows, of course, is the futility of trying to define a wide swath of human behavior with a simple set of logical boundaries and rules.

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, I know this is sort of a tangent, but I'm going to ask it, anyway. I've never really gotten the "D" part of BDSM--as in "Bondage & Discipline." I mean, I know what the word means, but it just seems...I don't know, odd in that context.

I read once that "S&M" is what the gay and lesbian kinky people used many moons ago to describe what they did. "B&D" is what the straight kinky people used to describe what they did, either incidentally or to intentionally distance themselves from the gay and lesbian people. At some point--when pansexual kink came into fashion, maybe?--the two things that meant basically the same thing got smushed together into the acronym "BDSM."

I have no idea if that's true or not. I just remember reading it somewhere.

I just find the "D" weird. Bondage, sadism, and masochism seem to "go" together, at least somewhat. But discipline just seems completely far removed from the other three in my mind. (This could just be my own bias speaking, though.)

Anybody have any insight as to how that one was grouped in with the other? I figure Stella or someone would know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, this is where you distinguish yourself from the author of that wiki-like article: "Somebody is going to have to acquisece to something they otherwise wouldn't want. Or at least, that possibility is going to be there." According to the writer, some form of discomfort must be present for the relationship to qualify as D/s.

Yes, although I think he put it badly, my point and his are the same. In D/s, M/s or any other form of power exchange, the potential MUST be acknowledged that pyl might be hurt physically, emotionally, be forced to waste time, humiliated whatever. And that PYL has the right to inflict that hurt. The willingness of pyl to endure whatever form of dis-comfort PYL expects, whether or not PYL ever does.

I submit (in the academic sense only, here) that there are plenty of cases of folks who would generally describe themselves in the /s part of the equation who rarely are ever challenged to acquiesce to something they wouldn't otherwise, but who often undergo experiences that under other circumstances they would find unappealing if not appalling. In the context of the relationship, some degrading humiliation in private might be deemed hawt as can be and be welcomed on some level. Yet hours before or after, degrading humiliation by the same person (the "D") under different or even public circumstances might be enough to warrant ending the relationship.

Context matters.

Well, sure. That's why we call it BDSM, instead of relationship abuse, right? There are different levels of cnotext, too. Master Bob Rubel, whom I am proud to call "mentor," is 24/7-- in fact, he's a slave 24/7. His title of master is a conferred title. He takes this waaaay seriously, miles past anyplace i want to take it.

And what this shows, of course, is the futility of trying to define a wide swath of human behavior with a simple set of logical boundaries and rules.

well, an awful lot of people come into D/s or leather for that reason, that they want to be able to codify their world and simplify the rules of relationships. It is a very codifiable thing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok, I know this is sort of a tangent, but I'm going to ask it, anyway. I've never really gotten the "D" part of BDSM--as in "Bondage & Discipline." I mean, I know what the word means, but it just seems...I don't know, odd in that context.

I read once that "S&M" is what the gay and lesbian kinky people used many moons ago to describe what they did. "B&D" is what the straight kinky people used to describe what they did, either incidentally or to intentionally distance themselves from the gay and lesbian people. At some point--when pansexual kink came into fashion, maybe?--the two things that meant basically the same thing got smushed together into the acronym "BDSM."

I have no idea if that's true or not. I just remember reading it somewhere.

I just find the "D" weird. Bondage, sadism, and masochism seem to "go" together, at least somewhat. But discipline just seems completely far removed from the other three in my mind. (This could just be my own bias speaking, though.)

Anybody have any insight as to how that one was grouped in with the other? I figure Stella or someone would know.

hee!

It seems that the "Discipline" portion of B&D is in the sense of restraint.

Like, "You WILL stand at attention, because these ropes wont let you do anything else."

Most of bondage is putting someone where you want them and keeping them there. At least, for me. Fancy knots are just decorations, when it comes to warm, whimpering bodies.

And then there's always the punishment aspect of "discipline" because nothing is so much fun as beating on someone who can't get away from your crop...

 

[BiBunny]

hee!

It seems that the "Discipline" portion of B&D is in the sense of restraint.

Like, "You WILL stand at attention, because these ropes wont let you do anything else."

Most of bondage is putting someone where you want them and keeping them there. At least, for me. Fancy knots are just decorations, when it comes to warm, whimpering bodies.

And then there's always the punishment aspect of "discipline" because nothing is so much fun as beating on someone who can't get away from your crop...

Ok, that makes a little more sense, I think. Thank you.

 

[midwestyankee]

hee!

It seems that the "Discipline" portion of B&D is in the sense of restraint.

Like, "You WILL stand at attention, because these ropes wont let you do anything else."

Most of bondage is putting someone where you want them and keeping them there. At least, for me. Fancy knots are just decorations, when it comes to warm, whimpering bodies.

And then there's always the punishment aspect of "discipline" because nothing is so much fun as beating on someone who can't get away from your crop...

Here's where your Cookie Dough meets my Pistachio: I contend that there's nothing so much fun as beating on someone who CAN get away from your crop but who chooses to accept the blows without escape because they come from you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here's where your Cookie Dough meets my Pistachio: I contend that there's nothing so much fun as beating on someone who CAN get away from your crop but who chooses to accept the blows without escape because they come from you.

Different strokes, and all *cough*

Someone else said something like that here-- about the difference between being told: "This is gonna hurt, so I'm tying you down" and "Hold still-- this is going to hurt." She felt the second was more erotic for her.

 

[JMohegan]

If you're in the mood to be spanked when I say: "Bend over for a spanking," said bending is not submission. That's just me giving voice to our mutual preference for what happens next, and both of us following through with it.

Submission is defined in those moments when one person actually defers to the needs, wants, or preferences of another. When they disagree or harbor different preferences for what happens next, but the one doing the submitting defers to the other regardless.

Everything else is just cultural dressing. The labels, the titles, the how-to's, the long-winded must-sell-books blathering.

 

[DVS]

hee!

It seems that the "Discipline" portion of B&D is in the sense of restraint.

Like, "You WILL stand at attention, because these ropes wont let you do anything else."

Most of bondage is putting someone where you want them and keeping them there. At least, for me. Fancy knots are just decorations, when it comes to warm, whimpering bodies.

And then there's always the punishment aspect of "discipline" because nothing is so much fun as beating on someone who can't get away from your crop...

I agree with this. Bondage and discipline go together for me. I've always considered B&D to be Bondage and Discipline. The domination is also there, but that doesn't need to be mentioned, because the other two pretty much cover that. Someone who's tied up and whipped, spanked or otherwise tormented is being dominated.

To a lot of people, discipline is a word used for correction of something done wrong. Another trigger word for some is punishment. Neither of these are words I use in a corrective sense. They are just words to define what is going on when I have a woman bound and helpless, even squirming and trying to get away. I don't believe in actual discipline or punishment of a submissive. I'm not trying to correct them in any way. My domination fun begins when they are tied and stops when they are untied. I don't know how common my methods are, but I'm not a 24/7 player.

 

[Stella_Omega]

the labels do make a difference --

When she expects that his "Dom" means something relational, but he just wants a blowjob.

Or, vice versa, when he wants real power exchange and she wants to get laid while wearing a collar.

When someone tells me they want my "total submission" during a spanking, I know they have mislabelled me.

When some guy tells me he's submissive, and he wants me to administer him the CBT he's come to the party for, I know he's mislabelled himself-- and me.

Sometimes, these label misconnects can be easy to fix. "I am not the Domme you're looking for," at a party-- easy enough.

Sometimes-- not so easy. And ALWAYS, people misunderstanding what the labels mean makes communication much more difficult.

 

[boredVAwife]

Stella can you suggest something that is a good intro to BDSM? I have a zillion questions and hate putting myself out on a forum to look like a total fool. I have tried a couple times on here to make contact with women that are dominant but it went sideways fast and I don't want that anymore. I would prefer knowing more to make better more informed decisions. Thanks.

 

[DVS]

If you're in the mood to be spanked when I say: "Bend over for a spanking," said bending is not submission. That's just me giving voice to our mutual preference for what happens next, and both of us following through with it.

Submission is defined in those moments when one person actually defers to the needs, wants, or preferences of another. When they disagree or harbor different preferences for what happens next, but the one doing the submitting defers to the other regardless.

Everything else is just cultural dressing. The labels, the titles, the how-to's, the long-winded must-sell-books blathering.

At the expense of using too many labels, I must disagree. The person bending over IS submitting. They are submitting to the spanking. It makes no difference whether there is a mutual preference for what happens or not. It is still submitting to another's desires. That's what happens in a D/s relationship. One likes to dominate and the other likes to submit.

Submission, as you state it, seems more like slavery to me, if they must submit, regardless. A submissive has the right to say no where a slave has less of a right...depending on your definition of said labels. Even when I tie someone up, if she doesn't want to be tied up, she won't be. That's a submissive. If I want to tie her up and she doesn't want to be but allows it anyway, she could either be a courteous submissive trying to make me happy or a slave just fulfilling her position in the relationship.

If a submissive has a headache, she might decline from submitting, but a slave is more obligated to comply, no matter what. At least that's how I see it. Your mileage my vary and probably does. I hate labels so what you say in the bold text I agree with.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella can you suggest something that is a good intro to BDSM? I have a zillion questions and hate putting myself out on a forum to look like a total fool. I have tried a couple times on here to make contact with women that are dominant but it went sideways fast and I don't want that anymore. I would prefer knowing more to make better more informed decisions. Thanks.

I can't remember if you've joined fetlife or not? I see a lot of groups and events for VA and West VA.

I don't see how you can possibly look like a fool for asking questions on a forum.

As far as books, I always suggest "Bring me the thorns" and "the new bottoming book" and "the new topping book"-- both, no matter which side of the paddle you hang out. Those will give a you a good basic education in the physical side of things. Then for D/s... I dunno, it depends on what flavor you want. I wish I had a better sense for that.

 

[Goodgirl4him]

hee!

It seems that the "Discipline" portion of B&D is in the sense of restraint.

Like, "You WILL stand at attention, because these ropes wont let you do anything else."

Most of bondage is putting someone where you want them and keeping them there. At least, for me. Fancy knots are just decorations, when it comes to warm, whimpering bodies.

And then there's always the punishment aspect of "discipline" because nothing is so much fun as beating on someone who can't get away from your crop...

lol see now this around yummy hehe

 

[Stella_Omega]

At the expense of using too many labels, I must disagree. The person bending over IS submitting. They are submitting to the spanking. It makes no difference whether there is a mutual preference for what happens or not. It is still submitting to another's desires. That's what happens in a D/s relationship. One likes to dominate and the other likes to submit.

Submission, as you state it, seems more like slavery to me, if they must submit, regardless. A submissive has the right to say no where a slave has less of a right...depending on your definition of said labels. Even when I tie someone up, if she doesn't want to be tied up, she won't be. That's a submissive. If I want to tie her up and she doesn't want to be but allows it anyway, she could either be a courteous submissive trying to make me happy or a slave just fulfilling her position in the relationship.

If a submissive has a headache, she might decline from submitting, but a slave is more obligated to comply, no matter what. At least that's how I see it. Your mileage my vary and probably does. I hate labels so what you say in the bold text I agree with.

I agree with your definitions, and so do the Masters, and Mistresses, Doms and Dommes that I most respect, for what its worth.

My Lady mentor, Mistress Lisa, has a sub, Anthony, and a slave, jeannie. The differences are very visible. Mistress Lisa is a nurturing, care-taking woman, and she cares for both her sub and slave like precious possessions. But the world revolves around her, and so do they. Anthony can argue with her, negotiate, change things-- as long as it's in her interest. jeannie has no such rights, and I have never seen her balk at anything Mistress Lisa tells her to do.

lol see now this around yummy hehe

I know, right?

 

[JMohegan]

At the expense of using too many labels, I must disagree. The person bending over IS submitting. They are submitting to the spanking. It makes no difference whether there is a mutual preference for what happens or not. It is still submitting to another's desires. That's what happens in a D/s relationship. One likes to dominate and the other likes to submit.

Submission, as you state it, seems more like slavery to me, if they must submit, regardless. A submissive has the right to say no where a slave has less of a right...depending on your definition of said labels. Even when I tie someone up, if she doesn't want to be tied up, she won't be. That's a submissive. If I want to tie her up and she doesn't want to be but allows it anyway, she could either be a courteous submissive trying to make me happy or a slave just fulfilling her position in the relationship.

If a submissive has a headache, she might decline from submitting, but a slave is more obligated to comply, no matter what. At least that's how I see it. Your mileage my vary and probably does. I hate labels so what you say in the bold text I agree with.

If you tell your mate to give you a blowjob and she does, are you submitting?

Submitting to the blowjob, sure, but that's not the kind of submission I'm talking about here. I'm not addressing do-er vs. do-ee but relative preferences instead.

As for sub vs. slave and labels in general, yeah, that's all part of the cultural dressing.

 

[JMohegan]

the labels do make a difference --

When she expects that his "Dom" means something relational, but he just wants a blowjob.

Or, vice versa, when he wants real power exchange and she wants to get laid while wearing a collar.

When someone tells me they want my "total submission" during a spanking, I know they have mislabelled me.

When some guy tells me he's submissive, and he wants me to administer him the CBT he's come to the party for, I know he's mislabelled himself-- and me.

Sometimes, these label misconnects can be easy to fix. "I am not the Domme you're looking for," at a party-- easy enough.

Sometimes-- not so easy. And ALWAYS, people misunderstanding what the labels mean makes communication much more difficult.

The labels make a difference to people who use them. Of course.

Some people are into cultural BDSM, others not.

 

[Bandit58]

I hate labels

In our relationship, there is Dominance (Him) and submission (me). Little or no Bondage, and no Discipline (it is not needed). A little Sadism, and a little Masochism - less as time has gone by.

He wants a blow job, He gets one

I identify as submissive, not slave. I choose to submit, but I do not have to. I happily serve Him in and out of the bedroom.

This is what works, for us.

 

[KoPilot]

If you're in the mood to be spanked when I say: "Bend over for a spanking," said bending is not submission. That's just me giving voice to our mutual preference for what happens next, and both of us following through with it.

Submission is defined in those moments when one person actually defers to the needs, wants, or preferences of another. When they disagree or harbor different preferences for what happens next, but the one doing the submitting defers to the other regardless.

Everything else is just cultural dressing. The labels, the titles, the how-to's, the long-winded must-sell-books blathering.

I like this and will be adding it to my hoard of quotes from people here.

 

[boredVAwife]

I can't remember if you've joined fetlife or not? I see a lot of groups and events for VA and West VA.

I don't see how you can possibly look like a fool for asking questions on a forum.

As far as books, I always suggest "Bring me the thorns" and "the new bottoming book" and "the new topping book"-- both, no matter which side of the paddle you hang out. Those will give a you a good basic education in the physical side of things. Then for D/s... I dunno, it depends on what flavor you want. I wish I had a better sense for that.

Thanks sis I will check them out. I haven't been to fetlife but am gonna do that too. The thing about questions on a forum is sometimes there are folks around that sort of enjoy making a noob look - well like a noob. I joined Lit because of the BDSM stories I had read from a link to Lit. I have wanted to get to know a fem domme but the two I have gotten to know just didn't do it for me. One lived in the UK so obviously I could never meet her and the other had more than a few irons in the fire. That was right after I joined and since then I haven't even tried. I am going to give fetlife a look though but I want to be a bit more knowledgable about things before I do. (wonder if I can get those books for my Nook?) Thanks again.

 

[CutieMouse]

It's amusing to me that in reading over the thread I would meet some people's definition of submissive, some people's definition of slave, and to some people I wouldn't come anywhere close to either. LOL

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's amusing to me that in reading over the thread I would meet some people's definition of submissive, some people's definition of slave, and to some people I wouldn't come anywhere close to either. LOL

I want to say: "When in doubt, go with Stella's definitions" except that would sound so obnoxious.

 

[YourCaptor]

Eh

Reads like mental diarrhea. Also it's not universal, tries to sound broad but it really isn't.