Ukraine should have given Donbas and Crimea BACK to Russia

[rockcasbah]

Anyone who ever played Risk knows the need for seaports on the Med.

Me, I’m far more concerned about all the white sand beach islands in the Carib breaking all ties to their post colonial tourism industry overlords.

Sandals resorts in Jamaica for example have now stopped clearing the sea grass and seaweed from their beaches, to the horror of white tourists.

 

[Chobham]

Ahh, the smell of seaweed baking in the Sun at low tide. Who'd want to miss that?

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

Well, the smell of something baked under the sun...

​

 

[ishtat]

Ukraine (and Russia) has been ruled by at least ten different empires over the last 1000-1200 years. Borders from Vladivostok to the Rhine have moved this way and that every generation for the whole of that time. Russia for example took 800,000 square kilometers of territory from China between 1890 and 1900. It's the only colonial acquisition which has not been returned to China - but someday it will be.

There cannot be any peaceful settlement so long as Putin remains, because he always breaks his word (Belovesh accords 1991 Alma Ata protocols 1991, Minsk agreements 2014 and 2015 etc. etc. etc.) The best result for the West is to cripple Russia economically and ensure that they are always in the midst of a military emergency somewhere or another. No-one's going to win, there will be no lasting resolution; if it involves the death of a million or so Slavs of one sort or another over the next 30 years that is a reasonable price to serve Western interests (and is consistent with Slav history)

The USA leadership with one notable exception has always been more realistic with regard to Russia and Putin than the Europeans. The Europeans especially the Germans thought they could control Putin through gas payments. They were wrong, but Putin was also wrong; he thought fear of him would be greater than hatred. Many Germans would still prefer a policy of appeasement but their leadership has been forced to re-arm - just in case.

Western interests in Europe are now much more united, but wait for the Germans to renege on any commitment to the Ukranians at the slightest hint of the gas supply being turned on. Ironically, Biden has become the strongest US leader in Eurasia for a generation, substantially by accident, though the opportunity has been handled pretty well so far. But for him and future US leaders Russia will be a pissant issue compared to China.

 

[HisArpy]

Ukraine (and Russia) has been ruled by at least ten different empires over the last 1000-1200 years. Borders from Vladivostok to the Rhine have moved this way and that every generation for the whole of that time. Russia for example took 800,000 square kilometers of territory from China between 1890 and 1900. It's the only colonial acquisition which has not been returned to China - but someday it will be.

There cannot be any peaceful settlement so long as Putin remains, because he always breaks his word (Belovesh accords 1991 Alma Ata protocols 1991, Minsk agreements 2014 and 2015 etc. etc. etc.) The best result for the West is to cripple Russia economically and ensure that they are always in the midst of a military emergency somewhere or another. No-one's going to win, there will be no lasting resolution; if it involves the death of a million or so Slavs of one sort or another over the next 30 years that is a reasonable price to serve Western interests (and is consistent with Slav history)

The USA leadership with one notable exception has always been more realistic with regard to Russia and Putin than the Europeans. The Europeans especially the Germans thought they could control Putin through gas payments. They were wrong, but Putin was also wrong; he thought fear of him would be greater than hatred. Many Germans would still prefer a policy of appeasement but their leadership has been forced to re-arm - just in case.

Western interests in Europe are now much more united, but wait for the Germans to renege on any commitment to the Ukranians at the slightest hint of the gas supply being turned on. Ironically, Biden has become the strongest US leader in Eurasia for a generation, substantially by accident, though the opportunity has been handled pretty well so far. But for him and future US leaders Russia will be a pissant issue compared to China.

The issue with crippling Russia economically is that it will inevitably lead to Russia preemptively launching a nuclear attack because the world will have left it no other choice.

It will come down to nuking the planet or the Russian people starving to death. Russia will not stand for the world creating that situation and then stepping in strip the government of its powers/abilities in the name of "helping Russia." No government will. The result will be an attack against the perceived creators of the no-win situation in retaliation.

Putin is right on the edge of that already.

 

[ll74]

I don't like this topic because its one I agree with, with people I dislike. But hey.....I guess it's bound to happen once or twice

 

[Rightguide]

Dunno if I should wring your neck or laugh at your ignorance.
You think both like a White supremacy colonist who thinks native americans should get over themselves
and as someone who thinks Cekhov and Mayakovskiy are ice skaters.

Your stupid attempt at a personal threat coupled with an ignorant analysis of Ukraine that, without knowing my race, arrives at a whimpering finding of "White supremacy" against "native Americans," along with a disjointed association of two obscure Russian playwrights, and ice skating. Quite the bag of marbles you have there. I did observe one credible association between Mayakovsky (you should learn how to spell his name) and yourself. He wrote a poem titled "Cloud In Trousers" which is a more colorful but accurate characterization of your posting style.

 

[Rightguide]

AIUI, to establish a secure coaling station in East Asia.

After whipping the Spanish, the real colonizers.

 

[icanhelp1]

Your stupid attempt at a personal threat coupled with an ignorant analysis of Ukraine that, without knowing my race, arrives at a whimpering finding of "White supremacy" against "native Americans," along with a disjointed association of two obscure Russian playwrights, and ice skating. Quite the bag of marbles you have there. I did observe one credible association between Mayakovsky (you should learn how to spell his name) and yourself. He wrote a poem titled "Cloud In Trousers" which is a more colorful but accurate characterization of your posting style.

Mayfly is nothing more than a self absorbed troller. Ukraine is a failed kleptocracy joined at the hip with Putin's oligarchy attempting to break from Russian imperialism, trying to build some semblance of a sovereign entity. I doubt Ukraine can ever be a true representative government, corruption from within is deep. Even if Ukraine succeeds in pushing Russia back to its own border they will never be the same. Ukrainian people are suffering from hundreds of years of corruption, culture divisions and domination, as we speak, they still exist as a schizophrenic Jekyll and Hyde. It's a tragedy in the making which could easily turn into a much larger crisis of global proportions. The whole civilized world is rooting for them while Putin, an obvious mad man, calculating but mad just the same, under his nuclear umbrella, feels invincible, a recipe for global annihilation.

 

[Rightguide]

I'm sorry I attacked you RG,
away from this topic you're actually a great poster

I'm having a go at you because what you and HA are demonstrating in this thread, is self-interest.

You guys are descendants of colonialists who took over land that belonged to other people for generations.
It seems like the typical European rhetoric that involves right to land through historical, cultural or spiritual affiliation feels threatening to you and HisArpy's sense on Americanism.

So you try to gut any attempt at debate through wilful obtusivenness, by deliberately casting aside any argument pertaining History and Culture, and waving in my face dates and accords made by some nobody leaders.

I accept the apology. I answered that post before I saw this one.

I have no self-interest in Ukraine, none at all. There is no land today that wasn't taken from somebody else in history. The Mongol invasion of I227 was the cause that eventually formed the state of Russia itself later on. Prior to that invasion, it was a collection of ununited principalities.

It isn't willful obtrusiveness that guts your argument but the simple facts on the ground, political reality, and the evolution of the human race. It was a long way from the stone age to the industrial age. When Europeans came to North America to compete for land and resources they found a stone-age people thousands of years behind in cultural and technological evolution, a people who had yet to invent the wheel. The resulting outcome of that competition erased much of his culture and his nomadic way of life. The present arrested condition of the American Indian generally is a product of their opposition to assimilation and their wish to embrace their native culture. Where they have assimilated they have prospered, where they haven't they live a reservation life, much of it in poverty.

 

[pecksniff]

The issue with crippling Russia economically is that it will inevitably lead to Russia preemptively launching a nuclear attack because the world will have left it no other choice.

It will come down to nuking the planet or the Russian people starving to death.

But, how would a nuclear exchange prevent the Russian people from starving? Seems to me it would only make the remnants of the whole agrarian production and distribution system more difficult to run -- probably it could not even feed the war's survivors.

 

[pecksniff]

After whipping the Spanish, the real colonizers.

Well, the Filipinos didn't exactly feel liberated by the change of masters. The Spanish-American War was followed by a long and bloody rebellion which for some reason gets less attention, and which involved a lot of atrocities perpetrated by Americans.

 

[Rightguide]

Mayfly is nothing more than a self absorbed troller. Ukraine is a failed kleptocracy joined at the hip with Putin's oligarchy attempting to break from Russian imperialism, trying to build some semblance of a sovereign entity. I doubt Ukraine can ever be a true representative government, corruption from within is deep. Even if Ukraine succeeds in pushing Russia back to its own border they will never be the same. Ukrainian people are suffering from hundreds of years of corruption, culture divisions and domination, as we speak, they still exist as a schizophrenic Jekyll and Hyde. It's a tragedy in the making which could easily turn into a much larger crisis of global proportions. The whole civilized world is rooting for them while Putin, an obvious mad man, calculating but mad just the same, under his nuclear umbrella, feels invincible, a recipe for global annihilation.

I'm not as all-in on Ukraine as the President. I think there is a limit to our ability to help Ukraine fight off Putin's act of aggression without ourselves becoming a legitimate military target. I have zero trust in the leadership of the President, his mental capacity to manage evolving events, that of his wife, or the handful of unknown people who are making his daily decisions. I have zero faith in the Democrat Party's state of mind to aggressively defend the United States. They are led by people who do not love our country and want to see it knocked down several notches.

 

[pecksniff]

or the handful of unknown people who are making his daily decisions.

You have no reason to believe they exist. That is not something we can infer from the state of Biden's mental clarity, which is far superior to yours.

I have zero faith in the Democrat Party's state of mind to aggressively defend the United States. They are led by people who do not love our country and want to see it knocked down several notches.

For example.

 

[icanhelp1]

I'm not as all-in on Ukraine as the President. I think there is a limit to our ability to help Ukraine fight off Putin's act of aggression without ourselves becoming a legitimate military target. I have zero trust in the leadership of the President, his mental capacity to manage evolving events, that of his wife, or the handful of unknown people who are making his daily decisions. I have zero faith in the Democrat Party's state of mind to aggressively defend the United States. They are led by people who do not love our country and want to see it knocked down several notches.

Dem party leadership is more vested in party loyalty than providing for their constituency. As for the aggregate democrat constituency I don't feel they hate america. The progressive socialist left on the other hand is off their collective rocker. Warren is one of my senators and she's a fucking lunatic and people from Boston gobble her shit right up. I have many friends and family that are democrat and I couldn't believe how uninformed they are as to the corruption and investigations going on. None knew who Duram was and refuse to believe how Mueller ran a sham investigation. Most weren't aware of the laptop from hell, the mainstream media doesn't do a good job of informing the democrat base.

 

[Rightguide]

Well, the Filipinos didn't exactly feel liberated by the change of masters. The Spanish-American War was followed by a long and bloody rebellion which for some reason gets less attention, and which involved a lot of atrocities perpetrated by Americans.

Let's be truthful about the relationship. America’s 1916 Jones Act promised eventual Philippine independence, and in 1935, the island nation became an independent commonwealth whose movement to full independence was interrupted by WWII. Full independence was granted in 1946. After the war America offered them a special military and financial relationship in exchange for some military basing rights.

 

[Rightguide]

it's time for Americans to get off their American horses:

It’s not just Trump. The US has always broken its treaties, pacts and promises
https://qz.com/1273510/all-the-international-agreements-the-us-has-broken-before-the-iran-deal/

Many of your examples in that list are not official agreements, in that they weren't agreed to or not ratified by the Senate, a requirement for a treaty to become our law.

 

[Rightguide]

it's time for Americans to get off their American horses:

The vast majority of Americans, save ranchers, farmers, and the equestrian class, got off our horses long a go. We do value horsepower through, to the acute chagrin of snowflakes everywhere.

 

[Rightguide]

RightGuide, HisArpy and Ill68.
The American version of British GBers.

All your leaders have been murdering Middle Easterners and hollowing your infrastructure for years, yet alll you do is engage in naiive chivalrous Rightiists versis Leftists fights.
AJ and Ish are far off the Right, but at least they're self-aware and have a sense of reality.

Yes, after they murdered over 3000 of us.

 

[Rightguide]

Dem party leadership is more vested in party loyalty than providing for their constituency. As for the aggregate democrat constituency I don't feel they hate america. The progressive socialist left on the other hand is off their collective rocker. Warren is one of my senators and she's a fucking lunatic and people from Boston gobble her shit right up. I have many friends and family that are democrat and I couldn't believe how uninformed they are as to the corruption and investigations going on. None knew who Duram was and refuse to believe how Mueller ran a sham investigation. Most weren't aware of the laptop from hell, the mainstream media doesn't do a good job of informing the democrat base.

The result of which is their support for those inside the leftist bubble in DC and radical state capitols, who do hate our country and our people. All of which is evidenced by their votes to sustain those radicals. They will however have a chance to redeem themselves in November and change my mind.

 

[pecksniff]

The result of which is their support for those inside the leftist bubble in DC and radical state capitols, who do hate our country and our people.

There are no radical state capitols, not even in California, and the only "leftist bubble" in DC is the local Revolution Books store, and not even they hate our country or our people.

 

[Rightguide]

There are no radical state capitols, not even in California, and the only "leftist bubble" in DC is the local Revolution Books store, and not even they hate our country or our people.

^^^
Gratuitous BS

 

[pecksniff]

^^^
Gratuitous BS

It is the truth. Your problem is that you view the entire spectrum left of CPAC through the wrong end of a telescope. You think Democrats are leftists and you cannot even distinguish them from Communists. You are also oblivious to the fact that one can hate capitalism and still love America. Eugene Debs was at least as patriotic as Theodore Roosevelt.

 

[Rightguide]

It is the truth. Your problem is that you view the entire spectrum left of CPAC through the wrong end of a telescope. You think Democrats are leftists and you cannot even distinguish them from Communists. You are also oblivious to the fact that one can hate capitalism and still love America. Eugene Debs was at least as patriotic as Theodore Roosevelt.

^^^
Doubles down with more gratuitous BS.

 

[LupusDei]

This is so tiresome. Ethnically... Donbas was russified in Golodomor, as was Krasnodar.