Ukraine should have given Donbas and Crimea BACK to Russia

[mayfly13]

I'm sorry I attacked you RG,
away from this topic you're actually a great poster

I'm having a go at you because what you and HA are demonstrating in this thread, is self-interest.

You guys are descendants of colonialists who took over land that belonged to other people for generations.
It seems like the typical European rhetoric that involves right to land through historical, cultural or spiritual affiliation feels threatening to you and HisArpy's sense on Americanism.

So you try to gut any attempt at debate through wilful obtusivenness, by deliberately casting aside any argument pertaining History and Culture, and waving in my face dates and accords made by some nobody leaders.

 

[icanhelp1]

btw
The no. of Russian cells in EE /the West - so surreal!
It's like in the movie "Salt", they all got flushed out by this war. Or shades of Yuri Bezmenov (whose coming out was a bit shadey too).

THE WEST:

This British guy Ross Ashcroft (renegade.inc hosted by RT). I thought he was a left-leaning guy who was merely disenchanted by the croney stuff in the UK (dismantling of NHI and social services, homelessness and income inequality.
Never talked about Russia or Ukraine before, but over the last 2 months he morphed into this Putin cheerleader & downplayed all massacres!

N.B. Kudos to Chris Hedges, he stopped posting on RT since the war began.

Now I'm asking myself: was Snowden a Russian asset all along, or just misguided in choosing Russia???


EASTERN EUROPE

Do you know that some of the EE historians or public personalities who were rabid anti-vaxxers and virus-denialists
- not only that they are now rationalizing Putin's war
- but some whistleblowers came out that there are documents showing some of them used to be USSR informers 30 years ago?

Unfucking surreal. So the Left Did get This one right about anti-vaxxers. It makes sense, that nonsense defied any logic, yet it was also promoted by (some) educated, intelligent public figures

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with:

1. 1990 Declaration of Sovereignty
2. 1991 Minsk Agreement
3. 1992 Lisbon Protocol
4. 1993 Massandra Accords
5. 1994 Trilateral Statement
6. 1994 Budapest Memorandum

 

[mayfly13]

if things couldn't get any worse...
Q to the rescue

 

[oggbashan]

I'm sorry I attacked you RG,
away from this topic you're actually a great poster

I'm having a go at you because what you and HA are demonstrating in this thread, is self-interest.

You guys are descendants of colonialists who took over land that belonged to other people for generations.
It seems like the typical European rhetoric that involves right to land through historical, cultural or spiritual affiliation feels threatening to you and HisArpy's sense on Americanism.

So you try to gut any attempt at debate through wilful obtusivenness, by deliberately casting aside anything else and waving in my face dates and accords made by leaders.

Bullshit showing your bias.

Ukraine was declared independent and that independence was recognised and affirmed by Russia. That has nothing to do with past history.

If you want history? How was the US created? And what did it do to Native Americans? And how long after the UK did you take to abolish slavery? Why did you make The Philippines a colony by force?

Your hands are bloodier than any Brits.

 

[rockcasbah]

lace is a lawyer now? lmfao

You’re not very bright.

 

[rockcasbah]

Bullshit showing your bias.

Ukraine was declared independent and that independence was recognised and affirmed by Russia. That has nothing to do with past history.

If you want history? How was the US created? And what did it do to Native Americans? And how long after the UK did you take to abolish slavery? Why did you make The Philippines a colony by force?

Your hands are bloodier than any Brits.

What we call Ukraine has been overrun and owned by more countries than the pretty exchange student at a frat house rager.

 

[mayfly13]

Crimea was initially Tatar and Greek
then Russian

Ukrainians are merely a recent transplant after Khruschev 'gifted' Crimea by abuse of power, against all Russians will.

 

[icanhelp1]

if things couldn't get any worse...
Q to the rescue

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm? The fact you associate me with Q leads me to believe that you perceive the web I weave. Keep on trucking!!

 

[pecksniff]

You guys are descendants of colonialists who took over land that belonged to other people for generations.

Most nations are built on the bones of others.

 

[mayfly13]

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with:

1. 1990 Declaration of Sovereignty
2. 1991 Minsk Agreement
3. 1992 Lisbon Protocol
4. 1993 Massandra Accords
5. 1994 Trilateral Statement
6. 1994 Budapest Memorandum

The point is, that region doesn't belong to Russia, which was ratified further in the "1991 Referendum"

it's time for Americans to get off their American horses:

It’s not just Trump. The US has always broken its treaties, pacts and promises
https://qz.com/1273510/all-the-international-agreements-the-us-has-broken-before-the-iran-deal/

 

[pecksniff]

Why did you make The Philippines a colony by force?

AIUI, to establish a secure coaling station in East Asia.

 

[mayfly13]

Most nations are built on the bones of others.

yup.
Which should make this Ukraine-Russia debate thing so much more layered, instead of the RightGuide/HisArpy straight shooters way.

The morality of the war in itself is black&white: unlawful invasion, genocide by Putin. But the underpinnings of the Russia-Ukraine animosities are so complex.

 

[pecksniff]

yup.
Which should make this Ukraine-Russia debate thing so much more layered, instead of the RightGuide/HisArpy straight shooters way.

The morality of the war in itself is black&white: unlawful invasion, genocide by Putin. But the underpinnings of the Russia-Ukraine animosities are so complex.

Complex, perhaps -- but there is nothing in it that Putin could not afford to ignore. NATO is no threat to Russia and Ukraine's -- or even Belarus' -- membership in it would not change that. And Ukraine has nothing that Russia really needs.

 

[icanhelp1]

it's time for Americans to get off their American horses:

It’s not just Trump. The US has always broken its treaties, pacts and promises
https://qz.com/1273510/all-the-international-agreements-the-us-has-broken-before-the-iran-deal/

And do what? What more short of a nucLear exchange do we do. We are in uncharted waters. Most of my military career was spent training how to fight the Soviets and in all my career I’ve never felt so close to the precipice of nuclear war.

 

[mayfly13]

And do what? What more short of a nucLear exchange do we do. We are in uncharted waters. Most of my military career was spent training how to fight the Soviets and in all my career I’ve never felt so close to the precipice of nuclear war.

you should have negociated when you had time
instead of putting logs on fire

you treacherous, two-faced assholes know how to make compromises when it suits you

you handed Eastern Europe on a platter to Soviets, after ww2, millions more died or sank into poverty because of that
yet you've been hanging onto a Russian-majority rock (Crimea) cause 'principles'' and çaring for Ukrainians?
Oh please

 

[oggbashan]

Should have negotiated?

What the fuck are you on?

Virtually every European leader went to Moscow to see Putin. All got assurances that he had no intention of invading Ukraine. The discussions continued even after he DID invade Ukraine.

We (Including the US) didn't hand Eastern Europe to the USSR after WW2. That was agreed (over Churchill's protests) between the USSR and US at Potsdam. The US handed Eastern Europe to the USSR.

In practice, since the USSR was going to conquer that part of Europe, the other Allies had little choice unless they were prepared in 1945 to take on the USSR's military which was much larger than the other allies in Europe. Hitler, until the last days, expected that the Western Allies and the USSR would fight each other, thus saving Germany. He was wrong - because of Potsdam.

Russia (after the USSR) guaranteed that Ukraine's borders would be respected. But they armed and supported militarily the rebels in the Eat and then took over Crimea (which RUSSIA had agreed as part of Ukraine) by force.

 

[icanhelp1]

Should have negotiated?

What the fuck are you on?

Virtually every European leader went to Moscow to see Putin. All got assurances that he had no intention of invading Ukraine. The discussions continued even after he DID invade Ukraine.

We (Including the US) didn't hand Eastern Europe to the USSR after WW2. That was agreed (over Churchill's protests) between the USSR and US at Potsdam. The US handed Eastern Europe to the USSR.

In practice, since the USSR was going to conquer that part of Europe, the other Allies had little choice unless they were prepared in 1945 to take on the USSR's military which was much larger than the other allies in Europe. Hitler, until the last days, expected that the Western Allies and the USSR would fight each other, thus saving Germany. He was wrong - because of Potsdam.

Russia (after the USSR) guaranteed that Ukraine's borders would be respected. But they armed and supported militarily the rebels in the Eat and then took over Crimea (which RUSSIA had agreed as part of Ukraine) by force.

People forget about the Marshall plan and the Potsdam agreement, to begin the healing and stop the killing.

 

[mayfly13]

Should have negotiated?

What the fuck are you on?

Virtually every European leader went to Moscow to see Putin. All got assurances that he had no intention of invading Ukraine. The discussions continued even after he DID invade Ukraine.

We (Including the US) didn't hand Eastern Europe to the USSR after WW2. That was agreed (over Churchill's protests) between the USSR and US at Potsdam. The US handed Eastern Europe to the USSR.

In practice, since the USSR was going to conquer that part of Europe, the other Allies had little choice unless they were prepared in 1945 to take on the USSR's military which was much larger than the other allies in Europe. Hitler, until the last days, expected that the Western Allies and the USSR would fight each other, thus saving Germany. He was wrong - because of Potsdam.

Russia (after the USSR) guaranteed that Ukraine's borders would be respected. But they armed and supported militarily the rebels in the Eat and then took over Crimea (which RUSSIA had agreed as part of Ukraine) by force.

Fuck you and your lord-iish Brrrrrritishness.

You, Sean, butters and hobbit are the most ridiculous posters on this board.

Sean and butters engage in American and Indian racists-bunting, hobbit in Ï care, damnit!"" as for yourself....
You all point smug fingers at others but no word about your own Empire's psychopathy.

Russians.
While their empire is just as psychopathic. Russian laypeople and culture are superior to Brits. You all stole or appropriated from the same cultures you look down your noses at

While the

 

[mayfly13]

RightGuide, HisArpy and Ill68.
The American version of British GBers.

All your leaders have been murdering Middle Easterners and hollowing your infrastructure for years, yet alll you do is engage in naiive chivalrous Rightiists versis Leftists fights.
AJ and Ish are far off the Right, but at least they're self-aware and have a sense of reality.

 

[Comshaw]

Wait...

The territories were "gifted" to Ukraine BY RUSSIA but they don't belong to Ukraine?

What kind of numbskull would say something as outright contradictory as that and expect people to believe the rest of what they say?

Comshaw

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

Territories that do not belong to Ukraine: Carpathian Ruthenia, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Crimea and Donbas.​

They were gifted to Ukraine by Soviet Russia, when Ukraine was part of Soviet Russia. Not out of kindness, but because at the time, Russia saw Ukraine as part of USSR aka it’s territory.​

However, after Ukraine gained it’s independence back in 1990, those territories remained with Ukraine. While not as brutal as Russians, post 1990 Ukrainia started clamping down systematically on minority rights (no radio or schools in their maternal language for Russians, Romanians, Moldavians, Hungarians and Slovaks).
Just read Hungary’s position statement on it’s Washington embassy website.

So my points being:
Yes, we're witnessing genocide and other dangers from a psychopatic leader and Empire.
But let's not sweep the other crap under the carpet either.
And did Ukrainian leaders also contribute, through their ineptitude, to the development of this war? Or did Putin merely use them as an excuse.

Perhaps turning them into autonomous zones would have been preferable,
but it's like saying that the early conquests by Hitler should have been gifted.
I think he would have just considered that a nice start and I strongly suspect
that Vlad would have seen that act as a sign the Ukraine was Russian territory.

Paul McCartney croons, Give Crimea back to the Crimeans, don't make them have to take it away...

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

RightGuide, HisArpy and Ill68.
The American version of British GBers.

All your leaders have been murdering Middle Easterners and hollowing your infrastructure for years, yet alll you do is engage in naiive chivalrous Rightiists versis Leftists fights.
AJ and Ish are far off the Right, but at least they're self-aware and have a sense of reality.

I feel damned by faint praise.

​

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

You’re not very bright.

That is an absolute understatement and I object to your pathetic attempt at politeness.

 

[Chobham]

The Russians have no intention of stopping until they've plugged the Polish gap which includes securing the D'neiper watershed.

 

[Sh1ne0n67]

They are, if nothing else, the world's foremost paranoids,
although, the anti-Musk movement is attempting to usurp The King...
__________________________________________
Democrat born. Democrat bred. Libertarian led (by Democrats).