Ukraine should have given Donbas and Crimea BACK to Russia

[mayfly13]

Territories that do not belong to Ukraine: Carpathian Ruthenia, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Crimea and Donbas.​

They were gifted to Ukraine by Soviet Russia, when Ukraine was part of Soviet Russia. Not out of kindness, but because at the time, Russia saw Ukraine as part of USSR aka it’s territory.​

However, after Ukraine gained it’s independence back in 1990, those territories remained with Ukraine. While not as brutal as Russians, post 1990 Ukrainia started clamping down systematically on minority rights (no radio or schools in their maternal language for Russians, Romanians, Moldavians, Hungarians and Slovaks).
Just read Hungary’s position statement on it’s Washington embassy website.

So my points being:
Yes, we're witnessing genocide and other dangers from a psychopatic leader and Empire.
But let's not sweep the other crap under the carpet either.
And did Ukrainian leaders also contribute, through their ineptitude, to the development of this war? Or did Putin merely use them as an excuse.

 

[HisArpy]

Wait...

The territories were "gifted" to Ukraine BY RUSSIA but they don't belong to Ukraine?

What kind of numbskull would say something as outright contradictory as that and expect people to believe the rest of what they say?

 

[ll74]

When Ukraine became an independent nation, including those territories, Russian claims to those territories became null and void.

Borders and territories we're agreed upon. There was no language in the agreement which stipulated why or that placed conditions to recognizing the country in full.

Russian attempts to add conditions after the fact should be dismissed completely.

 

[mayfly13]

pecksniff, Ishmail, ishtat or people who read books, History included &!
HELP!!

Don't leave me alone with these two .

 

[ll74]

Ukraine having and internal issue with how it treats its people does not have anything to do with Russia, regardless of how you position it.

From that conclusion, the unilateral invasion of Russia into a sovereign Ukraine, regardless of where the entry took place, is entirely Russia's responsibility.

 

[mayfly13]

Two months ago, I was actually far more ignorant than you two guys are, about Russia&.
You two read History & Politics &, I didn't even know who started world war 2.

But after the Ukraine war started, I discovered this Eastern European channel that compiles and adds subtitles to the most notable EE discussions (historians, analysts, writers from about 5 countries) bout the war.

I'm literary blown away. The depth and eclecticism...
I'll never use American or British sources to read History (but for a few folks in here), ever again.

 

[ll74]

So you understand that Russia agreed on the borders and territories that are part of an independent Ukraine and that there was no conditions to which this was not true.

Good to know that you recognize that fact.

 

[ll74]

When the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, we rationalized this by providing actions taken by the sovereign nations we invaded. That garnered support internationally, which contributed to our credibility. In the end, it was still an invasion which was not forced by either country...it was entirely the choice of the countries which participated in the invasion.

All matters that we used to rationalize the attack were entirely the countries to deal with internally until we forced upon them the changes we were seeking. They contributed to evidence to support our rationalization .......not to evidence to support the invasion. And we've finally given them back full control of their countries with conditions.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Indian givers.

 

[mayfly13]

I understand now where you're coming from.
There are so many shades of it, made even worse by Putinism and it's propaganda.

It would be so great if we could all cut a pie and say: look, 84% of it which I just cut is how Russia is respinsible for it, 10% the role of Ukrainian leaders and 5% croney Americans.
But they are so intermingked and complicated, it's so hard...

When the US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, we rationalized this by providing actions taken by the sovereign nations we invaded. That garnered support internationally, which contributed to our credibility. In the end, it was still an invasion which was not forced by either country...it was entirely the choice of the countries which participated in the invasion.

All matters that we used to rationalize the attack were entirely the countries to deal with internally until we forced upon them the changes we were seeking. They contributed to evidence to support our rationalization .......not to evidence to support the invasion. And we've finally given them back full control of their countries with conditions.

 

[mayfly13]

btw
The no. of Russian cells in EE /the West - so surreal!
It's like in the movie "Salt", they all got flushed out by this war. Or shades of Yuri Bezmenov (whose coming out was a bit shadey too).

THE WEST:

This British guy Ross Ashcroft (renegade.inc hosted by RT). I thought he was a left-leaning guy who was merely disenchanted by the croney stuff in the UK (dismantling of NHI and social services, homelessness and income inequality.
Never talked about Russia or Ukraine before, but over the last 2 months he morphed into this Putin cheerleader & downplayed all massacres!

N.B. Kudos to Chris Hedges, he stopped posting on RT since the war began.

Now I'm asking myself: was Snowden a Russian asset all along, or just misguided in choosing Russia???


EASTERN EUROPE

Do you know that some of the EE historians or public personalities who were rabid anti-vaxxers and virus-denialists
- not only that they are now rationalizing Putin's war
- but some whistleblowers came out that there are documents showing some of them used to be USSR informers 30 years ago?

Unfucking surreal. So the Left Did get This one right about anti-vaxxers. It makes sense, that nonsense defied any logic, yet it was also promoted by (some) educated, intelligent public figures

 

[Rightguide]

Territories that do not belong to Ukraine: Carpathian Ruthenia, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Crimea and Donbas.​

They were gifted to Ukraine by Soviet Russia, when Ukraine was part of Soviet Russia. Not out of kindness, but because at the time, Russia saw Ukraine as part of USSR aka it’s territory.​

However, after Ukraine gained it’s independence back in 1990, those territories remained with Ukraine. While not as brutal as Russians, post 1990 Ukrainia started clamping down systematically on minority rights (no radio or schools in their maternal language for Russians, Romanians, Moldavians, Hungarians and Slovaks).
Just read Hungary’s position statement on it’s Washington embassy website.

So my points being:
Yes, we're witnessing genocide and other dangers from a psychopatic leader and Empire.
But let's not sweep the other crap under the carpet either.
And did Ukrainian leaders also contribute, through their ineptitude, to the development of this war? Or did Putin merely use them as an excuse.

The old Soviet Union isn't Russia. The effort should be to push the Russians all of the way out of Ukraine including the southeastern region, which was illegally invaded by Russia as well.

 

[mayfly13]

The old Soviet Union isn't Russia. The effort should be to push the Russians all of the way out of Ukraine including the southeastern region, which was illegally invaded by Russia as well.

honestly. This is beyond annoying, even more than HisArpy's contributions to the Ukraine war.

You do read & know stuff, but as far as this war is concerned, you've morphed into a generator o memes, telling us things we already know.

 

[rockcasbah]

Neither Ukraine nor Russia have clean hands in this and hashtag’s points are good ones.

And for the West,,it’s a convenient way to shift the blame for the economic downturn.

Wars are good like that.

 

[oggbashan]

On the break up of the USSR, Russia guaranteed Ukraine's independemt status of all its borders in exchange for Ukraine returning all the nuclear weapons in Ukraine at that time.

Ukraine sent the nuclear weapons to Russia, but Russia encouraged and armed the insurrection in the East and then unilaterally took Crimea. Russia is the villain.

 

[mayfly13]

Neither Ukraine nor Russia have clean hands in this and hashtag’s points are good ones.

In a nutshell. You lawyers have that talent of synthesis, I suspect they teach you certain writing skills in law school

This war is horribly mentally draining.
And it's not just the Groundhog Day "the brave brave brave brave Ukrainians are winning"while we see Ukrainian corpses being dumped into manholes or mass graves.

It's the neverending cognitive dissonance.
The news on all sides are obviously biased
But for me the fact that not even honest historians see eye to eye is the most exhausting part

And for the West,,it’s a convenient way to shift the blame for the economic downturn.
Wars are good like that.

yup.

Some of them look years younger, the glee with which they saunter and try to help Ukraine....
In others'eyes, (like BoJo's) you can see a glint of shame when they say bullshit.

 

[ll74]

I understand now where you're coming from.
There are so many shades of it, made even worse by Putinism and it's propaganda.

It would be so great if we could all cut a pie and say: look, 84% of it which I just cut is how Russia is respinsible for it, 10% the role of Ukrainian leaders and 5% croney Americans.
But they are so intermingked and complicated, it's so hard...

It's not hard. The unilateral invasion is Russia's complete and total fault.

The tensions that led up to that involve lots of people. And these might have even been heightened from time to time but none of the tensions required war and the global community rejected Russia's reasoning outright, so their credibility is shit.

Add to it that the world completely publicly displayed the false narrative that Russia used as pretext in REAL TIME.

It seems impossible that you can accept that Russia was the singular party who pushed this to war and that they went back on their own word of what an independent Ukraine was composed of.

And I really don't get your reasoning as to why....you can say America and the west do shitty things while still accepting the obvious truth about this war.

 

[the_single_gal_unconfidential]

uuhhh - it's Putin's personal endeavor to establish russ as a dominant world power - as it was pre 89.

the world's moved on and left it in the dust - Russia has a minuscule economic power, or small anyway. produces nothing the world needs - except gas and oil.

he screwed up royally w the Ukraine thing - and he has no way of extracting himself and look good.

if he's given those areas - he will take that and more and more and more. and hopefully destroy nato.

if trump gets in - Putin will get his wish. those two will align as the two dictators with the power of all those nukes.

you assholes that voted for trump have gotten us to this point.

 

[pecksniff]

Territories that do not belong to Ukraine: Carpathian Ruthenia, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Crimea and Donbas.​

Bessarabia = Moldova. It is not part of Ukraine. Its situation is complicated because a Russian-majority enclave declared its own independence as Transnistria, which nobody else has recognized, not even Russia. Linguistically and culturally, the Moldovans are Rumanian and it would probably be best if they united with Rumania, bringing themselves under NATO protection.

Carpathian Ruthenia is divided between Ukraine, Poland and Slovakia.

Bukovina is divided between Ukraine and Rumania.

The Russians do have some claim to Crimea. It was part of the Russian Federation until Khrushschev, a Ukrainian, transferred it to Ukraine, and the people are overwhelmingly Russian.

This is a part of Europe where "historical claims" overlap in every direction and people are capable of holding a grudge from a battle that happened in the 15th Century -- see Serbia's claim on Kosovo.

 

[HisArpy]

uuhhh - it's Putin's personal endeavor to establish russ as a dominant world power - as it was pre 89.

the world's moved on and left it in the dust - Russia has a minuscule economic power, or small anyway. produces nothing the world needs - except gas and oil.

he screwed up royally w the Ukraine thing - and he has no way of extracting himself and look good.

if he's given those areas - he will take that and more and more and more. and hopefully destroy nato.

if trump gets in - Putin will get his wish. those two will align as the two dictators with the power of all those nukes.

you assholes that voted for trump have gotten us to this point.

So it's Trump's fault that Putin invaded Crimea in 2014? And now it's Trump's fault that Putin attacked Ukraine in 2021?

I wonder if in your world, Trump is the one who handed Eve the apple...

 

[HisArpy]

pecksniff, Ishmail, ishtat or people who read books, History included &!
HELP!!

Don't leave me alone with these two .

Reading books and assuming that all the details in the books, to the exclusion of everything else, are true is a failing.

We witnessed in real time the attack on Ukraine. We witnessed in real time the justification for that attack from Putin. We've witnessed in real time how the justification has morphed from one reason to another to another and yet another as each previously given basis is shown to be a lie from Putin.

No book which attempts to shift the basis onto Ukraine for the unprovoked attack by Russia is believable.

 

[Rightguide]

honestly. This is beyond annoying, even more than HisArpy's contributions to the Ukraine war.

You do read & know stuff, but as far as this war is concerned, you've morphed into a generator o memes, telling us things we already know.

The point is, that region doesn't belong to Russia, it belongs to Ukraine historically and culturally which was ratified further in the "1991 Referendum" That isn't a meme, its a fact. There is no factual basis for your statement that "Ukraine should have given Donbas and Crimea BACK to Russia." It was never Russia's to start with. Try reading stuff once in a while.

 

[butters]

In a nutshell. You lawyers have that talent of synthesis, I suspect they teach you certain writing skills in law school

lace is a lawyer now? lmfao

 

[mayfly13]

The point is, that region doesn't belong to Russia, it belongs to Ukraine historically and culturally which was ratified further in the "1991 Referendum" That isn't a meme, its a fact. There is no factual basis for your statement that "Ukraine should have given Donbas and Crimea BACK to Russia." It was never Russia's to start with. Try reading stuff once in a while.

Dunno if I should wring your neck or laugh at your ignorance.
You think both like a White supremacy colonist who thinks native americans should get over themselves
and as someone who thinks Cekhov and Mayakovskiy are ice skaters.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Israel should have given israel back to Palestine.