Trust: Where does it begin, where does it end?

[shyly curious]

building trust can be like learning to dance, the first tentative steps so awkward and cautious. with practice the rhythm grows, one foot, and another, learning to relie on the past training and experiences. then a new situation develops, a new dance, new rhythms, some past learning carries forward, both good and bad, wishing not to be fooled or foolish. as in dance, one may chose to lead, or one may chose to follow. asking questions, seeking insight, is this situation worthy of my time, my effort, my care.

is this dance good for me, ...

can i trust ...





be well all, shy

 

[Esclava]

... is this dance good for me, ...

can i trust ...





be well all, shy

That is part of what I am here to find out. I invite interaction from all - whether confrontational or not. Thank you for being part of my journey to wholeness.

Esclava

 

[SwtSouthrnSub]

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[catalina_francisco]

Trust is a never-ending issue. We all want to have it, yet even in the lifestyle our trust can be betrayed quite easily. As submissives, we want to trust because honesty in our relationships is so ingrained within us. We are told that we can trust because of some unwritten code of ethics that Dominants supposedly observe. Not true.

Dominants are not perfect. They are human, and sometimes make fatal mistakes that can destroy their personal relationships. I'm going to take the risk and say that many Dominants have huge egos that need constant stroking, even if they have exactly what they want in their current submissive or slave. It's a neverending story for some. Whether they will admit it or not, collecting more and more submissive friends to flirt with or carry on discreet relationships with is far more prevalent than many know. Yet they don't see anything wrong with it at the time. "I only wanted to help him/her find themself"...

Some interactions may be innocent, yet others are definitely not. Never let your guard down, or become so comfortable in a relationship that you believe your Dominant is beyond reproach. If your discoveries find that they have become closely involved in matters of the heart, it may be time to walk away with your dignity and pride intact.

I agree Dominants are not perfect, just human. Those who get hung up on appearing perfect will likely have issues within themselves which need working through. Fortunately I am with one who has no trouble acknowledging his humanness, and says he is far too lazy to want more than one sub/slave to be responsible for.

I think as far as being constantly on guard, it is difficult not to be but if in that mindset constantly it becomes impossible to develop a level of trust which supports a healthy relationship, vanilla or D/s. IMO if I were feeling that way, it would be time to move on as you say, whether I found any evidence for my feelings or not....not because the Dominant was straying in my belief, but because there would be no foundation to the relationship which I could feel at peace with.

I acknowledge it can happen easily in poly seeking relationships, or at least the feelings of insecurity and jealousy which can undermine the trust if not dealt with appropriately, and acknowledged as real and valid. I have touched on such issues in this thread before (https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181131 ) . It is one of those discussion points which need to be explored before getting in too deep I think so both can guage whether they can exist with each others expectations.

Trust is definately not something given easily or to be taken for granted. It takes time and work to get to the point where surrendering yourself without restraint becomes possible, and definately won't happen in the deepest sense overnight.

Catalina

 

[dreaming_lilith]

In entering the variety of relationships we do, there is often the issue of trust to come to terms with. Where do we decide to begin to trust? What are the parameters of that trust….is it partial, full, conditional? Where do we stop testing the waters with a big toe first, and decide to obey without hesitation? And when that trust is seemingly tested, does it have long-term effects (positive or negative) even if we find later there was no reason for concern? Is it a sign we faltered in our trust, or is our Dominant responsible? What issues of trust do Dominants find themselves experiencing? Perhaps it would be interesting and positive to discuss, exchange ideas, experiences, and POV on this often tenuous and risk-taking element of a D/s relationship.

Catalina

First of all I think there are diffrent kinds of trust for me. I can trust someone within BDSM, but not trust to give my heart to him. Or I can trust someones intentions but not trust his knowledge (or rather not trust him because of his lack of it).
I don't believe I make a decission to start trusting, and so far it has only come out from time...and it takes alot of time.
Basicly it is alot of time waiting for him to either show he didnt screw up and is reliable, or he does screw up...
Once trust is there I think communication is the key to make it stay there. But I don't think there are any general rules on when you can or cannot get the trust back when it has been questioned.

 

[SwtSouthrnSub]

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[the Royal wench]

Hello SwtSouthrnSub

I am going to quote you from another thread that brought me here because it brought forth some of my thoughts and feelings on the subject. I see some of them have been echoed here already.

In all honesty, there is no easy way to handle a Dominant cheating on his submissive or slave.

I posted someting on trust just a bit ago. While it may or may not apply to you, it's a few things that I've learned on my own journey, and that of friends.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232537

Trusting too much, in my opinion, can often come with the territory of being a submissive. No matter how smart or worldly we think we are, we want to believe that we are held securely within our relationship. Despite our strengths, most of us have the need to please... and to believe that we are cherished with honor and pride. This can easily be our downfall.

Sometimes, we get lost in the deam-state of submission and don't see what is going on around us until it hits us in the heart. Then, because we trusted so deeply, it may be impossible to recover from it.


(snip)

Trust is such a big issue in any relationship. When we trust we are also putting expectations on our partner. When we trust blindly, 100%, perhaps even without stating these expectations we have of our partner we are somewhat doomed. As we go on in life and find we cannot trust perhaps as we once did, or would like to do, it is easy to become jaded. I have come to the conclusion for myself that there has to be a degree of acceptance as well. Our partners will never be perfect all of the time, they may falter and hurt us. We may do the same to them. I don't excuse intentional harm but when it is not and we are in love with this person, then accepting their imperfections may be the best route to go. If we can truly accept them for the way they are and be at ease then we may well find our love grow even more. If the flaws run too deep, if they cannot be dealt with and discussed to come to a deeper understanding between the two people, or they simply cannot be accepted, that is when the relationship should end. A breaking of trust alone does not always mean we should end it.

 

[SwtSouthrnSub]

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[the Royal wench]

I agree with you completely on one of your points made, Royal wench. It does not always mean one should end a relationship. Both partners need to become aware of the issues that may have led into the problem of one becoming involved with another - and deal with those issues together. If you have a lot of personal time invested in the relationship, you must weigh the positive against the negative.

I'd also like to say that expectations mean nothing to me. When you expect someone to be what you want them to be, your relationship is bound to fail. While I still have hopes and dreams, they do not qualify as expectations. I know better.

But, if one partner is actively seeking personal relationships outside of what you are led to believe is an exculsive one, there will be neverending problems. My comments were made believing that (on the thread that you quoted) the submissive and Dominant were not of a long term relationship. What's long term? There are no facts or figures, but I'd say a relationship of one year or longer would qualify as long term... to me.

What is actively seeking? Sending flirtatious e-mails might become a problem. (I'm sorry, but those that flirt back are not absolved... it takes two to tango) Then, they may decide to move their 'friendship' to E-mail only because they don't want to get caught or hurt their partner(s). Who are they trying to fool? When you take a friendship out of the public eye, you have something to hide. Period.

If they're getting together in Chat here or elsewhere when you're not online, you have definite problems. And there are many other BDSM websites where they may be registered and posting without your knowledge.

There's no reason that this wouldn't apply to long term relationships. Why would it be any different, unless the partners had mutual consent to carry on discreet relationships offline despite the length of time they had been involved?

If you get fooled once, consider the fact that you may be part of a problem. If you get fooled twice, think long and hard about your relatonship. Get fooled three times, well... shame on you for not being able to recognize a problem when you see one. Get the heck out and find someone worthy of your love and submiission.

I don't have a problem with watching out for indescretion. I harbor no ill-feelings, yet I choose to be aware of what is going on around me. Call it self-preservation if you may, it really doesn't matter. It works for me.

There certainly are different situations that call for different actions. In a ltr where the love is strong acceptance after the problem has been faced can profit the future. I'm thinking more of acceptance of the past than that it will happen again in the future, 'it' having many possibilities as there are more ways than cheating to break trust. You still don't go on with blinders on.

Self-preservation is a very good thing.

 

[Esclava]

<snip> I don't have a problem with watching out for indescretion. I harbor no ill-feelings, yet I choose to be aware of what is going on around me. Call it self-preservation if you may, it really doesn't matter. It works for me.

SSS, I understand what you are saying about watching for indescretion. I've, personally, walked in those steps and also prefer to err on the side of self-preservation. However, I have also learned this:

To let go of the past does not mean to forget it. The painful things that have happened to us are like shackles on our ankles. IMO, to truly "let go" of that past, you have to unlock the shackle and allow it to fall open. Whether you take the step forward to leave it behind, is entirely up to you. But you must, first, open the lock to be free.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

OK, I have been doing a lot of thinking, some reading, and reflection on this amongst other subjects, and begun to examine them from a different perspective, try on a different thought process. There has been some discussion on this and other threads of late about trust, destroyed trust, and the difficulty to return to being trusting again, in some cases advocating trust can never be restored as fully as it was before, nor should it be from some people's POV. This has lead to some questions for me which are not aimed at minimising the destructiveness of going through a relationship where trust has been destroyed or threatened, nor the hurt and/or anger, but still leaves me looking for wider answers which can perhaps give hope to us all.

If we have trouble trusting others, is this saying something about ourselves more so than the other person?

Why is it we can have many trusting relationships that just don't work out for one reason or another (without destroying the trust), but one bad relationship where the trust has at the minimum been shaken, and from there all the positive past is wiped out to be replaced by one of distrust?

Surely the dominating factor of trust being honoured more than destroyed overall should have a greater influence than the less often experienced negative experience?

What drives us to follow the negative path over the positive?

If all our relationships have been evidence for distrusting others, is it just bad luck or something else?

Catalina

 

[Esclava]

IMHO, Catalina, one of the chief differences between the many trusting relationships and the one really bad one that shakes us to the foundation of our beings is simply that if it is a "love" relationship where the trust is shaken or lost, it is infinitely more devastating than one of very close friendship or any other relationship.

When you love someone deeply, you open yourself up as a much larger target to be injured or hurt by them. My best friend can say something about how bad an outfit looks on me and it might hurt my feelings, but it won't devastate me any where near what it would if the exact same words were said by my SO - or the one I was in love with. That's because I trust my SO to take care of my feelings and when they don't, I am crushed by their insensitivity. Now, shift that "insensitivity" to an affair or other indescretion; and you have a tailor-made recipe for putting up walls to block trust in the future.

Difficulty in moving on after trust is shaken does say alot about a person, individually; but it speaks louder volumes about the love, trust and feelings they have invested in a relationship. It is not easy to trust again - it is not easy to love again - but IT CAN BE DONE! Self reflection helps as well as being able to accept your portion of the blame for whatever led up to the breach of trust. THAT is a hard mirror to look into; but I promise if you will look with an open mind and an open heart, you WILL find the solace you need to - not only move on, but trust again.

Esclava

 

[Shallkneel4u]

On trust.....

Good Evening:

YOU WRITE:

In entering the variety of relationships we do, there is often the issue of trust to come to terms with. Where do we decide to begin to trust? What are the parameters of that trust….is it partial, full, conditional? Where do we stop testing the waters with a big toe first, and decide to obey without hesitation? And when that trust is seemingly tested, does it have long-term effects (positive or negative) even if we find later there was no reason for concern? Is it a sign we faltered in our trust, or is our Dominant responsible? What issues of trust do Dominants find themselves experiencing?

Trust first and foremost is not unique to the world of D/s, but think for obvious reasons the breaking of it can hold far more serious consequences for the one betrayed. For myself, trust was/is a difficult thing to give unconditionally, and it is my own belief that any Dominant demanding it should be avoided at all costs, as trust is not demanded, taken or coerced, but instead earned regardless of which side of the slash we might reside on.

I am also of the mind here that trust always has its limit, though the paremeters of those limits might vary between one individual and the next. We all have our limits, and some might argue that those limits constitute a lack of trust in our dominant, while I would argue that ignoring my limits is a very BIG red flag that the person on the other side of the slash is perhaps not deserving of the trust already bestowed upon them...not saying there that limits should not be expanded, but expanding limits and ignoring them are horses of a different color. For instance, I might trust my Mistress or Master (though currently have neither) to delve into certain taboo areas with me, but would be completely uncomfortable with my Mistress or Master say requesting that I allow another dominant those self same priviledges and liberties with my trust. Others though might find such a request perfectly acceptable, and not see it as a violation of my trust...so, trying to really divine trust is difficult at best as it is a matter of some great subjectivity.

For myself, D/s is not necessarily something that goes hand in hand with pain, and I see my own submission more along the lines of subservience, and being one who thrives at reading my Dom/mes needs, it is my desire to see to their needs before they are spoken, so that whole obey thing was/is difficult for me. Perhaps on some level, my own confusions come from my own morphed beliefs in regards to D/s, and the belief in my own heart and soul that one can have it all, which means being able to love and cherish the one who holds power over you, while having them love and cherish you...some have told me there is no such beast, but I continue to trust that one day I shall find my dream, and in a perfect world, even find a way in which that dream somehow led my wife to embrace and cherish the lifestyle as much as I myself do.

So, trust...do not give it blindly, do not give more than your heart and mind tell you to, but also do not withold without just cause.

Shall

 

[catalina_francisco]

It is not easy to trust again - it is not easy to love again - but IT CAN BE DONE! Self reflection helps as well as being able to accept your portion of the blame for whatever led up to the breach of trust. THAT is a hard mirror to look into; but I promise if you will look with an open mind and an open heart, you WILL find the solace you need to - not only move on, but trust again.

Esclava

This is partly what I was thinking in a quiet moment. It was not so much in my head that there was a need to look at what you did to lead to the breach of trust, though it is good to consider..more so I was thinking of how we begin to distrust our ownselves, our judgements, our abilty to make good judgements again even though we may have made 10 good ones, and only one bad choice.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: On trust.....

So, trust...do not give it blindly, do not give more than your heart and mind tell you to, but also do not withold without just cause.

Shall

Very good thoughts....I am a believer trust is earned through honesty, instinct/intuition, and proven right to be trusted. I can allow everyone may act foolishly in circumstances at times which is not a true indicator of their trustworthiness, and actions/words can be misinterpreted, so try to keep those things in mind.

I am also not one to hold a grudge, or blacklist someone from my life no matter what. Have tried, and often with good reason, but is not me....I like to remain open and try and be optomistic, judge each situation on its merit at the time. There have been times I have sworn to not let certain people bother/hurt me again, but it is not who I am. I feel strong and secure in my ability to handle the situation whatever it may be. IMHO it is all about growth, experience, reflection, and reality...none of us is perfect 100% of the time unfortunately.

Catalina

 

[Esclava]

This is partly what I was thinking in a quiet moment. It was not so much in my head that there was a need to look at what you did to lead to the breach of trust, though it is good to consider..more so I was thinking of how we begin to distrust our ownselves, our judgements, our abilty to make good judgements again even though we may have made 10 good ones, and only one bad choice.

Catalina

IMHO, I believe those things that cause us to lose faith in our ability to make decisions about trust have everything to do with how much is invested in the relationship. If you love someone very deeply - and there is a breach of trust, NO MATTER WHO STEPS ACROSS THE LINE OF TRUST - it is human nature to wonder and second guess how we could place our trust in someone that could break it.

Another way to look at it is: The 10 good relationship decisions may have been with people that you cared for very much - but that one bad choice may have been with the one you felt was the love of your life. That one, bad decision makes you doubt everything, Everything, EVERYTHING about your ability to make good decisions where others are concerned - especially when it concerns matters of the heart.

None of us wants to be hurt again and most of us react by going into self-preservation - which, I feel, is where all of the doubt comes from.

So, to me, the same things that cause us to doubt ourselves are what we look at when reflecting on our 50% of fault in a relationship breakdown. And all of them are related to the level of trust - or lack of it - that we place in the other person.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump....

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

I was thinking of how we begin to distrust our ownselves, our judgements, our abilty to make good judgements again even though we may have made 10 good ones, and only one bad choice.

Catalina

Thank you for the bump on this thread Catalina. It provided some very interesting reading on a big issue for me. For some reason I hadn't really thought of it as not trusting my own judgements particularly, but in pondering your words I realize this is something I need to look at more closely.

Rox.

 

[submissiveknight]

Trust has many different values in a relationship. I feel that communication is the main value in trust. I for one would have never asked my Princess to marry me if I did not have trust in Her.(and yes it has been tested). We both passed that test and it was the trust that led us thru it. Not saying that it didn't get rocky at the time! For me personally I feel that in the form of adultry that trust can never be mended. In Our case, We made it quite clear at the very onset of Our relationship if You want to do it bring it home for all to enjoy! Otherwise don't bother walking back in the door. Trust in decision making. Once again communication,communication. Never make a decision if You think Your partner will have a problem with it. As time together grows this doesn't become as big of an issue as you grow more accustomed to their way of thinking. Now as far as D/s is concerned, I'm throwing this from the submissive side, You better have TRUST if you are going to open up your mind and body to someone elses control!!! It does not happen overnight and takes years and years to devolop. As a sub you have to put the utmost trust into your (in my case Mistress) to make the right decisions. Communication helps here, but They have the say. I,ve never had to use my safeword! In my case the only time I would ever consider using my safeword is if I am put in abnormal pain, I trust that She can tell if She made a mistake, which does happen from time to time. I feel if you are going to use your safeword as a way to opt out then you are not letting Your dominate push your limits. I serve my Mistress, I can not serve Her if She has in the back of Her mind that I am going to opt out just because I am uncomfortable with the situation or the experience isn't to my likeing. I am for Her pleasure. otherwise I would have never submitted to Her in the first place!!! Yes, I have my morales and values some are complicated and others are quite simplistic, like don't fuck with my family for one, others realm deep into the mind and are very complexed. Communication about these morales and values is a good path, I feel, to devolping the trust that is needed for a flourishing companionship.

 

[satindesire]

I know this is an old thread...buuut...

It began when we decided our relationship was 'finalized' and we were officially monogamous to each other.

It will end if he ever abuses my faith in him.

Safewords aside, there are a lot of other ways it could end. Cheating, non consensual cruel abuse with no teaching or punishment purpose, addiction to drugs or alcohol, or flat falling out of love with each other.

As much as I'd love to deny it, the vanilla world's rules hold just as much sway as the BDSM world's rules on our relationship...there are just certain things that even as a -submissive- I won't tolerate.

I was thinking of how we begin to distrust our ownselves, our judgments, our ability to make good judgments again even though we may have made 10 good ones, and only one bad choice.

Personally, I ALWAYS question big decisions. For relatively small things like what kind of job to take or what courses to buy in school, it's a straightforward thing that I generally trust my gut to. But for stuff like should I get married, where to buy a home...that's the kind of stuff I think about for DAYS and sometimes WEEKS before reaching any kind of conclusion.

As human as we all are, we've all made bad choices, but I don't believe that all of those bad choices were accidental. I may be giving too much credit for the human intellect, but I think as a whole we're smarter than to just go off and do something retarded. Bad choices, are, however, necessary to learn...as I believe we learn much more from failure than from success.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Our trust is something that has been built slowly over time...

We built it so well from a distence that when we went RT for the first time it was as natural as if we had done it a thousand times before.

 

[SweetErika]

A very timely bump indeed, Catalina, as I've been thinking a lot about this issue and even discussed it with Hubby last night.

In entering the variety of relationships we do, there is often the issue of trust to come to terms with. Where do we decide to begin to trust?

This is exactly what I'm questioning right now. I've met a sub who I like very much, but he has seemingly put his trust in me after only one platonic meeting. I do not trust so easily and would never take on a sub or Dom/me after such a short time. Perhaps I'm more jaded even at a much younger age, or am just more cautious as a woman, but I have to wonder if him trusting and wanting to commit to being my sub so soon is a red flag. Anyone have thoughts on that?

For myself, I decide to begin to trust when I start to build a friendship, but I'm very tentative and dole out the trust sparingly - basically, it's given as it's earned (when people prove they are who they say, I see them act with integrity, etc.). I know I'm less trusting than average, but that's because I've been hurt badly even after acting cautiously, and I can afford to be. Or maybe I can't afford not to be.

What are the parameters of that trust….is it partial, full, conditional?

My trust is always partial until someone has proved themselves worthy of my full trust multiple times. Very few people have my full trust.

My trust is always given on the condition that someone won't fuck it up. If they do, I'll either cut them off completely or it'll take several times as long to earn it back. I'm talking about big things here, like major promises broken, a confidence/privacy betrayed, or smaller things over and over, of course.

Where do we stop testing the waters with a big toe first, and decide to obey without hesitation?

Even though I'm not exploring my submissive side really right now, I think this is still applicable. I'll stop testing when someone respects my needs and boundaries, which progressively get larger, until we get to something like sex (I have to really trust someone before putting myself in a position where sex *could* happen). I struggle with knowing when to start trusting with the larger things and stop testing, though.

And when that trust is seemingly tested, does it have long-term effects (positive or negative) even if we find later there was no reason for concern?

Absolutely. I have a long memory for both the positive and negative. I'm not really one to jump to conclusions, so I'm not sure how much the 'no reason for concern' applies to me.

What issues of trust do Dominants find themselves experiencing?

As a Domme seeking a male sub, my main issue is making sure I'm not hurt physically or stalked. I don't see my role as meaning anything when it comes to sexual assault or weird/dangerous behavior, though perhaps keeping my sub bound would afford some level of protection. So, in terms of safety, I don't feel much different than a sub or anyone else.

Right now, at the beginning of relationships, I'm wondering how/when I will trust enough to commit to being someone's Domme and allow them to earn my trust. I question if I might see and test it a bit differently in this dynamic. I also wonder what I will do if my (potential) sub breaks my trust - how forgiving would I be, and would I add/use different consequences than I might in a vanilla relationship?

 

[chantilly_lace]

my response here is that the building of trust is a 2 way street B/both have to be able to trust E/each other. Communication is key to it all. There can be no trust with out full disclosure and communication of limits and/or concerns and through communication that is open and honest, clarified when needed with out criticism, thus the basis for trust has commenced ... grins ok may sound too simple bu ti do believe that is the foundation

 

[s_red830]

From a newbie PYL's point of view, I have to trust more in myself that I'm actually doing what I want. I'm quite submissive in my day-to-day actions, and I don't really like it. So it takes a lot of trust and reassurance to bring out in me what I know is in there.

I don't know if anyone else has had this problem...?

 

[BeachGurl2]

Very interesting thread and good bump, Cat. I've been thinking about this a bit lately, so some of my thoughts are still spiralling about and not quite formed yet. Bear with me if I seem to ramble a bit.

We talk a lot about communication, and sometimes I see people balk at that, but it seems to me that good communication can set you on the right path to building trust. For me, because I seek 24/7 rather than sexual only, that is even more important in some respects. People in general don't like to communicate too much because then it allows other people some measure of control or power. Even within D/s relationships, there are things that you slowly expose, those inner most feelings, thoughts, and desires, because with each one, the other person has even more power and control. With each exposure, you measure how the other responds to it and how they proceed with the knowledge. If you express something painful and their reaction is to brush it off, then that drops the trust level a bit. If you express something painful and their reaction is to embrace the pain and help you move forward, then trust develops. That is a bit simplistic, but it works for me.

I think that forming boundaries within the relationship can be an important step as well. Who is responsible for what within the relationship? I'm not talking merely about tasks, but also about roles within the relationship. For example, if one person is interested in only a surface relationship, while the other is seeking a deep, emotional bond, those differences can go far into creating a breach of trust if they aren't identified. A lack of common language can also create problems. Things such as fidelity and service can make or break trust when each person is approaching things from a different angle. Once those boundaries are settled, expecting each person to do their part can lead to building or destroying trust.

So many people seem to hop on the bandwagon so quickly that they miss some important steps in building trust. Then, when trust is broken, they don't understand why it happened. Had they truly developed some of the roles and responsibilities and discussed boundaries, they may have had a better understanding at the outset that would have preserved the trust, or made them realize that the relationship wasn't going to be the one they wanted in the first place.

I have a very difficult time trusting across the board. It takes me a long time to truly open up to someone. In some ways, I even test that trust, although I don't believe I do so consciously. Personally, my trust has been shattered too many times to not be protective of myself. But once I do begin to truly open up because I've felt that the trust was there, it can be much more devastating when it is breached. Which means next time, it will take even longer to build. And it's interesting to me that I take much greater chances physically with trust than I do emotionally with trust. But physical pain heals a lot faster than emotional pain, in my experience.