True Sadism...

[CutieMouse]

Not sure. Some may go out of the way looking to inflict extra distress, some won't care either way, and some won't be able to read the other anyhow and overlay their enjoyment onto the other person. You bottom types are always under the impression that you're that important (j/k)

But I AM important, dammit!

 

[MsAmative]

In the mean time... What's really fascinated me how diverse the definition of sadism seems to be. I guess maybe it's justified that I was a little confused, when it seems as a whole, we don't all completely agree on what the definition of sadism is to begin with.

I have been debating if I wanted to comment on this thread with the way its gone so far but here goes..

I never identify myself as a sadist, but rather a person with "sadistic tendencies." There are too many definitions that someone could use to define a sadist. In my experience, most of the potential partners I speak with are not looking for pain, or are only looking to experience minimal pain. Most find the idea of having a sadist as a partner to be a frightening prospect.

I do think a lot of that comes back to the definition, which has been quite debated on this thread.

I enjoy inflicting pain on others. Does this make me a sadist? Dictionary definition says yes.

I will respect the safe-words and limits of my partners. Does this not make me a sadist? Based on some of the replies here some would say I am not, simply because I respect those I play with. I would simply say that it means I do not abuse my partners nor am I a sociopath. Sadly though, I think this is the assumption that many make... that playing with a sadist means that they will go past the will of the other person for the sake of their own enjoyment.

I also find it interesting that there has been some debate about other people truly being a sadist. I don't think that we can judge someone's sexuality or enjoyment. We are not them, and we can't judge their arousal. Being a sadist does involve pain and cruelty to an extent but that does not make them a terrible person. It does not take away their humanity or ability to be a decent person.

The other thing that really struck me, especially with some of the earlier comments, is that a few people talked about how sadism gives them a feeling of control... And it's that control they enjoy. I've got to throw out there then... Is that really sadism? Or is it just a desire to be in control? Could you get the same buzz from restraining someone and causing them immense pleasure instead? Is a sadist really a sadist if pain is just a tool, rather than the ultimate goal?

I think this is a really great talking point! I think its hard to enjoy causing pain without also enjoying some sort of rush from the power exchange (because it is there even if you aren't seeking it...) I do think there are a lot of people who do enjoy the rush and the control aspect from causing pain though. I think this may be the draw of a lot of people who get into spanking and other forms of impact play. I think this may also be what stops a lot of tops (going to use this for simplicity's sake here) from going from light to moderate pain to severe pain. They don't need to take it to the higher level to get what they want. The pain is just a vehicle for control. I think it gets a lot cloudier here. I would say if one would say they do it for the control, they are doing for D/s reasons and the extra thrill from pain itself is maybe more of a bonus. I think this still have a lot to do with introspection and what is the major motivator.

On a personal level, I enjoy causing pain to partners. Thinking about this thread has actually had me excited for quite a bit today. It is for the pain's sake (although I said, the power control aspect is far from lost on me.) and I relish in being able to watch the reactions of pain on my partner. It isn't something I get to really let loose on a regular basis (and haven't in a long time) though. I still have to respect the people I play with, and I would never put them before myself. Perhaps this may not define me a sadist in the dsm/mental illness vein but I do believe it does in the bdsm sense of the word.

I can get a similar buzz from the immense pleasure side (and I use that a lot) but it is not the same. There is a point where pleasure or the orgasm denial/overload reaches the same intensity. Is that intensity also cruel? Especially depending on the scenario? Then aren't we back at sadism again...

Perception sometimes is everything.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Etoile]

I enjoy inflicting pain on others. Does this make me a sadist? Dictionary definition says yes.

I will respect the safe-words and limits of my partners. Does this not make me a sadist? Based on some of the replies here some would say I am not, simply because I respect those I play with. I would simply say that it means I do not abuse my partners nor am I a sociopath. Sadly though, I think this is the assumption that many make... that playing with a sadist means that they will go past the will of the other person for the sake of their own enjoyment.

Thank you for this explanation of your definition.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Give the man a cigar. A cheap one befitting his avatar however.

I hope he likes cigars. Let's see. A fine floor sweepers special wrapped in 'tobacco product'. Sadism, remember.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Well done.

No doubt it'll be a pretend cigar from the Pretend Board.

You people would shit if a real sadist came along.

 

[MsAmative]

MsAmative, I for one am very glad you chose to respond. . Insight from you, Netzach etc give me a new perspective .

Personally while I understand the Internet is a place where people behave.....as some people do.....I'm always intrigued when people in an online 'community' are rough with each other rather than frank. Now while this might seem a little off topic on a thread where we are talking about what how people behave, and whether people get pleasure from behaving in a way designed to hurt others and what that makes them in this community or the wider one and whether its consent that makes the difference I feel its a relevant point to raise. Its interesting to read how people express themselves with that in mind. I think the two women identifying as sadist don't come across poorly here those boundaries considered. and my personal experience with one in discussion here is that I expressed a boundary in conversation and whether I was ignored or my boundary respected I certainly was not poked or prodded, so, I feel that's pretty cool too. Certainly falls well within better than average 'netiquette' I would have thought.

I find that consent is one of the biggest issue in many ways.

I was talking to my partner about if I wanted to admit that I was a sadist last night and his immediate response was "but you aren't one." His reasoning? I will stop when he cannot go on, even when he isn't willing to admit that because of my own enjoyment. That being a sadist means I disregard everyone else but myself. After having said that he realized its a flawed thought process (depending on how you define sadism.)

This is the thought process I think a lot have as a gut response. It is why I never identify myself as one. It does not benefit me, even in a group of what you may assume is like minded individuals.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Etoile]

I wonder if we can pull out a little history - sadism is named for de Sade. What if we look at what he describes? Is that "true" sadism? If not...how has the meaning been changed from what he wrote?

Edit: Fun reading to go along with it

Edit 2: Yes, I'm aware of what happens in 120 Days of Sodom - I'd kind of like to leave murder out of the discussion, if possible. That seems more "fucking nuts" than what we're talking about.

 

[sprincess1990]

I never identify myself as a sadist, but rather a person with "sadistic tendencies." There are too many definitions that someone could use to define a sadist. In my experience, most of the potential partners I speak with are not looking for pain, or are only looking to experience minimal pain. Most find the idea of having a sadist as a partner to be a frightening prospect.

Thanks so much for your input! I guess I had never considered the other end of it... perhaps my musings should be "why does it seem like there aren't many Sadists?" but actually "are there many masochists?". If we, for now, assume consent is a 100% given, then you can't really have a Sadist without someone who WANTS to allow someone to hurt them.

I will respect the safe-words and limits of my partners. Does this not make me a sadist? Based on some of the replies here some would say I am not, simply because I respect those I play with. I would simply say that it means I do not abuse my partners nor am I a sociopath. Sadly though, I think this is the assumption that many make... that playing with a sadist means that they will go past the will of the other person for the sake of their own enjoyment.

It hadn't even really crossed my mind until now that that lack of consent, lack of respect for another's safe-word would even factor into the definition of Sadism for some...

I find that consent is one of the biggest issue in many ways.

I was talking to my partner about if I wanted to admit that I was a sadist last night and his immediate response was "but you aren't one." His reasoning? I will stop when he cannot go on, even when he isn't willing to admit that because of my own enjoyment. That being a sadist means I disregard everyone else but myself. After having said that he realized its a flawed thought process (depending on how you define sadism.)

This is the thought process I think a lot have as a gut response. It is why I never identify myself as one. It does not benefit me, even in a group of what you may assume is like minded individuals.

So potentially, we need to add selfishness into the definition? Is that the right word? I'm not sure.

I don't know... my own opinion, I think is that perhaps Sadism as a dictionary definition, and Sadism as a BDSM definition are two different things.

I don't think your respect for your partner makes you any less a Sadist. You recognise when he mentally or physically cannot take any more, and stop. That's just being a good, responsible person. But fundamentally, you take pleasure in watching him hurt, within a safe environment... that's BDSM to me.

Would love to hear more from you! Welcome to the thread, and thanks so much for contributing!

P xx

 

[Etoile]

I would add, too, that a smart PYL doesn't break their toys, or they can't play with them later. Right? So a sadist still has to stop somewhere...you can't just break somebody's arm because it pleases you, let it heal without medical care...right?

 

[sprincess1990]

Edit 2: Yes, I'm aware of what happens in 120 Days of Sodom - I'd kind of like to leave murder out of the discussion, if possible. That seems more "fucking nuts" than what we're talking about.

I promise I'll leave murder out of this... but reading that just made me think of the alternative ending to The Story of O... O asked to no longer live, and Sir Stephen allows this...

 

[sprincess1990]

Says who?

hehe... says OP

 

[sprincess1990]

Why do you think it should be more common?



Sadism is less common than dominance, I would say.



Despair.

I don't at all think it should be more common. I don't think anything SHOULD be anything. I just found it interesting that, as I learn more about my BDSM interests and how I identify myself, I've learnt a lot very quickly about a lot of my interests, but haven't really been able to explore much about my masochistic side. This thread I guess was selfishly created to help me learn more about myself, by learning more about Sadism.

 

[sprincess1990]

"Sadists enjoy others suffering a lot."

Yup, I honestly do think that sums it up.

Oftentimes Master can tell when I'm right on the edge of 'too much.' That's when he'll grab my hair, pull my head back, and whisper "take the last five for me....good girl."

I think he likes my tears more than my orgasms.

*gulp*

 

[sprincess1990]

Fuck that. No. This is bullshit.

You want to talk about actual mental disorders, actual pathologies, fine. That's not what this board is about. This board is about BDSM. You don't get to glorify a fucking mental illness over kink practices. The word "true" is being used completely within the context of BDSM.

Completely agree with Etoile here

 

[sprincess1990]

Sadists don't care about pain. Sadists want to see you suffer. Pain is not the same as suffering. Suffering comes from the mind and the mind holds on to it way after the physical sensation. Suffering is the little voice in your mind that tells you that you deserve the pain and have no right to escape.

Really interesting perspective... Sadism is about more than the physical, but actually the mental pain.

I guess the question out there for those of you who do identity as sadistic is... would you still enjoy your practise if you partner was enjoying what you're dishing out?

 

[Primalex]

I would add, too, that a smart PYL doesn't break their toys, or they can't play with them later. Right? So a sadist still has to stop somewhere...you can't just break somebody's arm because it pleases you, let it heal without medical care...right?

*sighs*

I really don't get why this is so difficult to understand for people that sadism is a personality trait independent from other personality traits.

No, a sadist doesn't have to stop. He is still a sadist if he doesn't stop.

A gay doesn't have to use a condom with the hustler down the block. He is gay, no matter whether he fucks thirty guys bareback on the floor of the shadiest bar in town or is a "smart gay". He is even gay when he has HIV, knows about it and fucks bareback with the next guy. He is imho also a criminal in that case but that doesn't make him less "true gay".

Trying to understand sadism by limiting it to BDSM is as futile as trying to understand homosexuality by limiting it to monogamous relationships. Because the first thing you need to understand is that there is no correlation between these things. They are frameworks for activities. They don't define what is going on in your head.

And this is part of the confusion here. People mix up sadism as personality trait and sadism as activity within the BDSM context. You cannot discuss the personality trait within the BDSM context, this doesn't make sense and leads to nonsense (sorry) like "Is a true BDSM sadist selfish?"

 

[MsAmative]

Really interesting perspective... Sadism is about more than the physical, but actually the mental pain.

I guess the question out there for those of you who do identity as sadistic is... would you still enjoy your practice if you partner was enjoying what you're dishing out?

Speaking only for me - it depends. If we are talking about someone who really sees the pain as pleasurable... not really. I enjoy playing with masochists when i find them because I can go so much further, and I do not have to hold back near as much. Until it crosses over the threshold its not near as exciting though.

Its like using the pleasure example from earlier, if you have someone who truly enjoys the pain they are enjoying it. I can use that to exhaust and be cruel or to overstimulate and be cruel and I can get a rush for it. But it is not the same.

Pardon the typos, on my mobile.

 

[Primalex]

I guess the question out there for those of you who do identity as sadistic is... would you still enjoy your practise if you partner was enjoying what you're dishing out?

Maybe.

Sexual preferences have a strength. When a sexual preference has the strength that it becomes the only possible source of arousal it is considered a disorder.

A sadist can enjoy a vanilla blowjob - unless he can't. So a sadist can enjoy dishing out pain without true suffering, not because it's part of sadism to enjoy that but because even sadists are multifaceted personalities.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Netzach]

The other thing that really struck me, especially with some of the earlier comments, is that a few people talked about how sadism gives them a feeling of control... And it's that control they enjoy. I've got to throw out there then... Is that really sadism? Or is it just a desire to be in control? Could you get the same buzz from restraining someone and causing them immense pleasure instead? Is a sadist really a sadist if pain is just a tool, rather than the ultimate goal?

No. I love that kind of thing with someone who's just really really reactive, and I get off on big reactions more than anything. But that's not the same. That's like giving me grape juice because it's the same as Cabernet.

 

[Netzach]

I find that consent is one of the biggest issue in many ways.

I was talking to my partner about if I wanted to admit that I was a sadist last night and his immediate response was "but you aren't one." His reasoning? I will stop when he cannot go on, even when he isn't willing to admit that because of my own enjoyment. That being a sadist means I disregard everyone else but myself. After having said that he realized its a flawed thought process (depending on how you define sadism.)

This is the thought process I think a lot have as a gut response. It is why I never identify myself as one. It does not benefit me, even in a group of what you may assume is like minded individuals.

To me, this is why this discussion is never productive. Everyone wants to overlay clinical and sociopathic sadism onto "I get off seeing people go through the pain experience. And I don't just mean the ow so good pain experience." So either you have to be a full blown serial killer or you're just expected to deliver up your bottom's funsies, and it winds up pretty stupid. I feel you on this one.

 

[Netzach]

I would add, too, that a smart PYL doesn't break their toys, or they can't play with them later. Right? So a sadist still has to stop somewhere...you can't just break somebody's arm because it pleases you, let it heal without medical care...right?

It's all kind of slippery. If you've acquired a contact who really really wants something broken, who is going to find someone or something to break it, is going to break it himself anyway, maybe even in a more dangerously uncontrolled way than you've thought of - I think short of killing one another, we should have the right to our bodies to that extent. Not that I personally am signing up. People bust each other up in the pursuit of trophies all the time, so fuck the notion that we need to be that much more responsible because orgasms might happen.

Actually that's a good point, if someone is consensually begging someone else to do something pretty fucking painful, how is it not sadism to deliver that experience and enjoy it as well? I don't think sadism HAS to be linked to dominance or control.