Top-opolis

[Pure]

And so it is

Hi bb,
Nice to hear from ya,

you said,

bb:I don't think you can point to the lengths pervs will go to in order to indulge their kink and conclude that their drives are necessarily stronger or more compelling than the non-pervy. The difference isn't in the drive it's in whose acts are most restricted.

If vanilla sex were illegal or greatly restricted then most of the population would be breaking the law or secretly and desperately pushing social boundaries in order to scratch their itch.

P: I think you have a point; a lot of the perv's insistence, the build-up of his or her drives, is due to 'restrictions', if not legal, then from social ostracism or diapproval.

But the source of the desperation is not a big issue with me. Also whether a perv libido is greater than, say, that of the Don Juan is not a crucial point because it's not intrinsic to the original claim: that pervy desires--once let out-- make it** difficult if not impossible to be moral.

I'd like your comment on this.

Lastly, your phrase "if vanilla [=hetero, straight] sex were illegal, or greatly restricted...." is surely tongue in cheek.
Or somewhere. It is quite often, just that.

Nice posting; you are always helpful in clarifying an issue.

**added: directly or indirectly

 

[Pure]

do tell

bb:Absolutely. Find me a breast-man and his fixation will make up for great lack of talent in any number of other areas.

the het-straight 'breast man' isn't rare, as witness Playboy magazine, the prevalence of 'implants,' and so on. are you thinking, beyond the icecreamcone lover and proverbial 'tit fucker'? how about the one who'll twist your nipple rings and thread them onto a rod?

 

[bridgeburner]

Pure,

Good to see you as well!

pervy desires--once let out-- make it difficult if not impossible to be moral.

How so? The only pervy desire I can think of that would conflict with my morality would be true non-consent. If one gets off on actual rape --- whether physical or emotional --- then you've got a moral dilemma. If you can be satisfied with a consenting partner who is not seeking self-destruction (as in the Miewes case) then I don't see how the moral code is strained. Further, what is immoral about licking feet, wearing PVC or grunting your slot on a plush toy?

Is your definition of moral different than mine in general? (everyone's is different in the minutiae)


-B

 

[Recidiva]

Pure,

Good to see you as well!

How so? The only pervy desire I can think of that would conflict with my morality would be true non-consent. If one gets off on actual rape --- whether physical or emotional --- then you've got a moral dilemma. If you can be satisfied with a consenting partner who is not seeking self-destruction (as in the Miewes case) then I don't see how the moral code is strained. Further, what is immoral about licking feet, wearing PVC or grunting your slot on a plush toy?

Is your definition of moral different than mine in general? (everyone's is different in the minutiae)

-B

I agree, that's where my line is drawn. Consensual. If two or more people agree all together, really, it's nobody else's business. Having the patience to find and convince those people, while not giving into compulsion, is all that's required.

 

[bridgeburner]

bb:Absolutely. Find me a breast-man and his fixation will make up for great lack of talent in any number of other areas.

the het-straight 'breast man' isn't rare, as witness Playboy magazine, the prevalence of 'implants,' and so on. are you thinking, beyond the icecreamcone lover and proverbial 'tit fucker'? how about the one who'll twist your nipple rings and thread them onto a rod?

The only piercings I have or ever intend to have are in my ears, so in the specifics I'd have to pass on that one. ;->

As for what appeals to me, it depends to a great extent on where I am in my menstrual cycle. Part of it is physical and part of it is mental. I suspect I may be something of a wimp when it comes to actual pain but that doesn't curb my fantasies. What I find hot in my mind contrasts greatly with what I might find hot in reality.

The thing that doesn't change is the fixation and objectification. That kind of 14yo boy obsession with tits. Not a worshipful thing but a what can I do to/with them. "Ooooh, look! Titties!!! How hard can I squeeze them? What happens if I pinch her nipples really hard? If I pull on them hard enough can I make her follow me around the room? Now jump up and down for me!! Wonder if I could get milk out of them. Woah!! Look how they jiggle when I slap 'em! Oooh, bad titties!" whap! whap! whap! demented, letcherous giggling follows.

As to how much I could physically stand, I honestly don't know. I do know that I can take a lot more in the heat of the moment when involved with a lover than I can when playing alone. To look down and see big manly hands twisting my nipples is hot --- even when it hurts. Even when it hurts enough that I want to tell him to quit it there is a little pain-deaf monkey in my brain saying "Do it harder, make me whimper and then revel in that."

And boy is that more detail than I meant to go into, but what-the-fuck-ever. It's Monday. Everybody needs a little slack on Monday.


-B

 

[Recidiva]

The only piercings I have or ever intend to have are in my ears, so in the specifics I'd have to pass on that one. ;->

As for what appeals to me, it depends to a great extent on where I am in my menstrual cycle. Part of it is physical and part of it is mental. I suspect I may be something of a wimp when it comes to actual pain but that doesn't curb my fantasies. What I find hot in my mind contrasts greatly with what I might find hot in reality.

The thing that doesn't change is the fixation and objectification. That kind of 14yo boy obsession with tits. Not a worshipful thing but a what can I do to/with them. "Ooooh, look! Titties!!! How hard can I squeeze them? What happens if I pinch her nipples really hard? If I pull on them hard enough can I make her follow me around the room? Now jump up and down for me!! Wonder if I could get milk out of them. Woah!! Look how they jiggle when I slap 'em! Oooh, bad titties!" whap! whap! whap! demented, letcherous giggling follows.

As to how much I could physically stand, I honestly don't know. I do know that I can take a lot more in the heat of the moment when involved with a lover than I can when playing alone. To look down and see big manly hands twisting my nipples is hot --- even when it hurts. Even when it hurts enough that I want to tell him to quit it there is a little pain-deaf monkey in my brain saying "Do it harder, make me whimper and then revel in that."

And boy is that more detail than I meant to go into, but what-the-fuck-ever. It's Monday. Everybody needs a little slack on Monday.


-B

BB, I adore your posts. There's always something new.

"pain-deaf monkey" is my favoritest.

 

[bridgeburner]

BB, I adore your posts. There's always something new.

"pain-deaf monkey" is my favoritest.

Aww, thanks!

 

[Pure]

good question

bb [does indulging a pervy desire make it difficult to be moral]How so? The only pervy desire I can think of that would conflict with my morality would be true non-consent. If one gets off on actual rape --- whether physical or emotional --- then you've got a moral dilemma.

Let me clarify: I had a range of possible immoral acts in mind. But lets start with your example: 'emotional rape' is not in the criminal code, so I'm going to assume there is NO basis for a charge of actual rape. I suppose, however, you have in mind, perhaps, a woman, who's very inexperienced and whose 'yes' represents a moment of weakness that her seducer knows will not last til the next morning. IOW she will be guilty and emotionally distraught the next day.

1) Well, if the pervy desire was for conquest or seduction, this 'emotional' case might then serve as something the perv is led to do, that's immoral (even by his conscience, were he to listen to it.)

But mainly I had in mind a couple lesser breaches of one's morality NOT intrinsically connected to the quality of the act,

2) Whatever your kink, you've not found a good one to indulge you, until Jacob. He's going to take a whip to your ass, just the way you like. At the last moment you find out that he's married, and it's your 'moral code' not to 'date' married men, ie. help him betray another woman's trust.

3) Jacob is available and single, and ready for the encounter to redden your butt; NO sexual relations are planned. BUT you are married, and it will take, if not a direct lie, a deception or omission--e.g., you really do have to go to a convention in NYC next weekend, but it just happens that that's where you plan to have the encounter with Jacob.

4) More innocently (but not quite), Jacob will be happy to whip you and he's single, but he's in town only Friday noon. There's important work at the office, but not crucial.
You can get out of it by feigning something serious, by way of illness. IOW, a lie is required to get what you want and need.

Perhaps these examples make it clearer what I mean by an indirect effect in pushing one to immorality. I have in mind the sorts of immoral--but not yet criminal--things people do who, for instance, really need casual gay sex, or alcohol, or need to gamble. These moral 'glitches' are of course commonplace in simple pursuit of a 'vanilla lay.' And of course none of them is in the ballpark with the really nasty things--criminal acts, like bumping off an inconvenient spouse--that 'love' has led to.

 

[Recidiva]

bb [does indulging a pervy desire make it difficult to be moral]How so? The only pervy desire I can think of that would conflict with my morality would be true non-consent. If one gets off on actual rape --- whether physical or emotional --- then you've got a moral dilemma.

Let me clarify: I had a range of possible immoral acts in mind. But lets start with your example: 'emotional rape' is not in the criminal code, so I'm going to assume there is NO basis for a charge of actual rape. I suppose, however, you have in mind, perhaps, a woman, who's very inexperienced and whose 'yes' represents a moment of weakness that her seducer knows will not last til the next morning. IOW she will be guilty and emotionally distraught the next day.

1) Well, if the pervy desire was for conquest or seduction, this 'emotional' case might then serve as something the perv is led to do, that's immoral (even by his conscience, were he to listen to it.)

But mainly I had in mind a couple lesser breaches of one's morality NOT intrinsically connected to the quality of the act,

2) Whatever your kink, you've not found a good one to indulge you, until Jacob. He's going to take a whip to your ass, just the way you like. At the last moment you find out that he's married, and it's your 'moral code' not to 'date' married men, ie. help him betray another woman's trust.

3) Jacob is available and single, and ready for the encounter to redden your butt; NO sexual relations are planned. BUT you are married, and it will take, if not a direct lie, a deception or omission--e.g., you really do have to go to a convention in NYC next weekend, but it just happens that that's where you plan to have the encounter with Jacob.

4) More innocently (but not quite), Jacob will be happy to whip you and he's single, but he's in town only Friday noon. There's important work at the office, but not crucial.
You can get out of it by feigning something serious, by way of illness. IOW, a lie is required to get what you want and need.

Perhaps these examples make it clearer what I mean by an indirect effect in pushing one to immorality. I have in mind the sorts of immoral--but not yet criminal--things people do who, for instance, really need casual gay sex, or alcohol, or need to gamble. These moral 'glitches' are of course commonplace in simple pursuit of a 'vanilla lay.' And of course none of them is in the ballpark with the really nasty things--criminal acts, like bumping off an inconvenient spouse--that 'love' has led to.

1. Still under the nonconsent umbrella. Pushing someone's limits, emotional or physical, falls under the same category for me. Ultimately the target has to agree or the pusher must back off immediately before the "point of no return."

2. Second is a personal choice to bend your morals to suit a situation depending on the payoff. In these situations you may discover your morals aren't as bedrock as when you encounter them "in the wild" For instance, I've been an adulteress, but I've truly loved the man, and considered it immoral to go against my heart. I was willing to pay the price, because my morality is actually geared toward following my heart despite the costs. This covers 3 and 4 also.

If you're willing to do the time, you can do the crime.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

Pure,

Good to see you as well!




How so? The only pervy desire I can think of that would conflict with my morality would be true non-consent. If one gets off on actual rape --- whether physical or emotional --- then you've got a moral dilemma. If you can be satisfied with a consenting partner who is not seeking self-destruction (as in the Miewes case) then I don't see how the moral code is strained. Further, what is immoral about licking feet, wearing PVC or grunting your slot on a plush toy?

Is your definition of moral different than mine in general? (everyone's is different in the minutiae)


-B

Help - these posts are causing a total brain flood. Talk about tits? Talk about morality? Where do I even start? I feel that treating myself and others with dignity and respect are moral values. My sexual desires are all about indignity and disrespect.

bb:Absolutely. Find me a breast-man and his fixation will make up for great lack of talent in any number of other areas.

the het-straight 'breast man' isn't rare, as witness Playboy magazine, the prevalence of 'implants,' and so on. are you thinking, beyond the icecreamcone lover and proverbial 'tit fucker'? how about the one who'll twist your nipple rings and thread them onto a rod?

Hmm. For me, none of the above. My particular version of breast fetish is in the context of objectification, domination and coercion. Is this bdsm? Or just role play/ fantasy?

I imagine a relationship between a coldly intelligent, powerful dom and an almost completely silent woman.

Key elements are that she is always accessable, submissive, and always on display for him and for others. This is where the breast-play often comes in, which I'm just not ready to describe in detail. Most scenes are more about her being given to others (not to doms, just to ordinary pervy guys), rather then being used directly by her dom. My excitement can come from simply imagining scenes in this relationship.

If I am going to engage in dom/sub relationship, I would almost certainly want to be a sub, but I would have to deeply, truly feel the power of the dominant, and physical power alone is not interesting to me. I'd need to submit to someone who I felt could see through me and get to my submissive side psychologically. I have zero interest in roleplaying with someone who does not truly take this level of control, and I will not submit to anyone unless they have truly dominated me.

I think I would also like to be the third party - brought in and invited to use a sub. The term 'dom' doesn't fit me, but I do also want to be in the position to objectify and dominate.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

That post leaves me feeling as if I'm standing naked in a shoppingmall parking lot. Why do I do this to myself?

 

[Hester]

That post leaves me feeling as if I'm standing naked in a shoppingmall parking lot. Why do I do this to myself?

because you are an emotional maso and on some level it pleases you

 

[Pure]

olivia,
no one knows the 'whys', but there are meditative works:

film: the piano teacher
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0254686/
----
film:belle de jour
----
autobio: a taste for pain, by maria marcus

degradation through objectification is a fine theme in a personal process that isn't the Hollywood transformation caterpilar to butterfly, but more like the snake shedding his skin, or the hawk nestling that devours her sister.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

because you are an emotional maso and on some level it pleases you

yes. /

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

olivia,
no one knows the 'whys', but there are meditative works:

film: the piano teacher
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0254686/
----
film:belle de jour
----
autobio: a taste for pain, by maria marcus

degradation through objectification is a fine theme in a personal process that isn't the Hollywood transformation caterpilar to butterfly, but more like the snake shedding his skin, or the hawk nestling that devours her sister.

The snake shedding his skin - that image goes deeper, says something to me. I remember there is some saint who is flayed, and on the sistine chapel ceiling, he's standing there with his flayed skin in his hands. michaelangelo's self-portrait, I think.

 

[Pure]

masos--the cantankerous, not the whiney-- are always welcome in this city



hester, be aware of the problem of virtus dormativa

--
PS yes olivia, i think it's in [correction:] the lower right of the central portion of the Last Judgment--on Christ's left and somewhat lower--in the hands of St. Bartholemew. this fresco is on the west wall, behind the altar.

http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/x-Schede/CSNs/CSNs_G_Giud_big.html

 

[Hester]

yes. /

 

[alice_underneath]

masos--the cantankerous, not the whiney-- are always welcome in this city

Gatekeeper, huh?

I certainly would not want to wander, unbidden, through the streets of Mr. Rathbone's town.

Perhaps you could outline the requirements for welcome here, Pure. I would be most grateful for the effort.

Alice

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

...What I find hot in my mind contrasts greatly with what I might find hot in reality.

The thing that doesn't change is the fixation and objectification. That kind of 14yo boy obsession with tits. Not a worshipful thing but a what can I do to/with them. "Ooooh, look! Titties!!! How hard can I squeeze them? What happens if I pinch her nipples really hard? If I pull on them hard enough can I make her follow me around the room? Now jump up and down for me!! Wonder if I could get milk out of them. Woah!! Look how they jiggle when I slap 'em! Oooh, bad titties!" whap! whap! whap! demented, letcherous giggling follows.
-B

I re-read this again this morning. I love it - so joyful. And I've often thought this - that the femme side of me grew up, but if I have a masculine side, he's stuck in a state of arrested developement, going "woo hoo, look at those!"

 

[Pure]

i'm just the rabbi here, but as i understand the practices,

all pervs, including those incipiently so, should consider themselves bidden. and literacy is highly regarded.

AU: I certainly would not want to wander, unbidden, through the streets of Mr. Rathbone's town.

 

[alice_underneath]

i'm just the rabbi here, but as i understand the practices,

all pervs, including those incipiently so, should consider themselves bidden. and literacy is highly regarded.

A dank aych, Pure.

 

[bridgeburner]

I've often thought this - that the femme side of me grew up, but if I have a masculine side, he's stuck in a state of arrested developement, going "woo hoo, look at those!"

Yes!! Exactly --- I've determined that it's why I like Richard Laymon books so much.


-B

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

Yes!! Exactly --- I've determined that it's why I like Richard Laymon books so much.
-B

*googles* oh - horror. I'm a sissy/wuss. Can't deal with gore *hangs head*. but nipple twisting sounds good ... ow.

 

[bridgeburner]

Let me clarify: I had a range of possible immoral acts in mind. But lets start with your example: 'emotional rape' is not in the criminal code, so I'm going to assume there is NO basis for a charge of actual rape. I suppose, however, you have in mind, perhaps, a woman, who's very inexperienced and whose 'yes' represents a moment of weakness that her seducer knows will not last til the next morning. IOW she will be guilty and emotionally distraught the next day.

No, my idea of emotional rape has to do with taking someone's love and trust and deliberately skewering him on it.

The scenario you presented represents a case of non-consent insofar as the consent wasn't fully informed. If you know that your partner is unable to handle the situation or is making an uninformed decision then it is wrong to proceed. So maybe nobody dies or gets scarred for life, you're still a shitty human being for taking something that you know wasn't truly offered to you. If you didn't know, then it's an unfortunate mistake, but to do such a thing in full recogniton of the fact that you're going to hurt this person to a degree they don't wish to be hurt? Out of bounds.

1) Well, if the pervy desire was for conquest or seduction, this 'emotional' case might then serve as something the perv is led to do, that's immoral (even by his conscience, were he to listen to it.)

But mainly I had in mind a couple lesser breaches of one's morality NOT intrinsically connected to the quality of the act,

2) Whatever your kink, you've not found a good one to indulge you, until Jacob. He's going to take a whip to your ass, just the way you like. At the last moment you find out that he's married, and it's your 'moral code' not to 'date' married men, ie. help him betray another woman's trust.

3) Jacob is available and single, and ready for the encounter to redden your butt; NO sexual relations are planned. BUT you are married, and it will take, if not a direct lie, a deception or omission--e.g., you really do have to go to a convention in NYC next weekend, but it just happens that that's where you plan to have the encounter with Jacob.

4) More innocently (but not quite), Jacob will be happy to whip you and he's single, but he's in town only Friday noon. There's important work at the office, but not crucial.
You can get out of it by feigning something serious, by way of illness. IOW, a lie is required to get what you want and need.

Perhaps these examples make it clearer what I mean by an indirect effect in pushing one to immorality. I have in mind the sorts of immoral--but not yet criminal--things people do who, for instance, really need casual gay sex, or alcohol, or need to gamble. These moral 'glitches' are of course commonplace in simple pursuit of a 'vanilla lay.' And of course none of them is in the ballpark with the really nasty things--criminal acts, like bumping off an inconvenient spouse--that 'love' has led to.

None of this is tied to kink. In every case it's dependent upon the relative consciences of the people involved. Some people will bend the rules more than others to get what they want. Whether they are kinky desires or mundane desires is immaterial.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

*googles* oh - horror. I'm a sissy/wuss. Can't deal with gore *hangs head*. but nipple twisting sounds good ... ow.

Some of his books are a bit gorey, but not all. Mostly what appeals is the adolescent fixation on tits and the threat of rape.

-B