Top-opolis

[Kajira Callista]

Hiya KC!

Hi bb, i like it when someone cums in my face ya know. It's not degrading at all.

 

[Pure]

bb When women stare at tits it's not just rude, it's perverted.

the [way] you guys want to stare (and ...) , [is], yep, perverted*.



*PS: and around here, perversity is admired!

 

[stirbird]

Hiya Stirbird,





It has never been my position that there isn't a market for degrading porn. My position is that it is a much smaller percentage of the porn produced because the audience for it is a smaller percentage of the buyers. Remember, the inital premise in this discussion was that the primary desire of the male sex drive is to degrade the sex object. In order for that to be true then degradation sex would necessarily be the most commonly expressed not only in reality but also in our pornography.




There's more than a bit of supply and demand politics going on with this. Special interest kinksters are such because their interests are not in the mainstream --- they're not being catered to or fulfilled by the regular market's offerings. When something comes along that does cater to that kink it's going to be glommed onto by anyone and everyone who's been waiting for it. When the demand is comparatively high in relation to the supply, you can charge a lot more money for your product.

There are a lot of things that affect the price of the end product but subject matter is one of them. You'll generally pay more for niche porn than you will for mainstream stuff. This isn't only because it costs more to pay the talent but simply because the producers know the folks who want it are willing to pay to get it.

The company I work for has more than 20 different content providers but only one of them submits BDSM content. They're one of the more expensive feeds because there is demand for the content and not many people are making it, but the reason all 20 of our vendors aren't doing it is because the market (Litsters notwithstanding) isn't big enough to support them all.




You misread my post. (perhaps my lack of commas was the reason)

I said that "if sex were, at root, about degradation then...."

translation: if degradation was the main point of sex

I don't agree that degradation is the main point of sex for either gender as a whole. It is the primary drive for certain individuals, but it is not the underlying impetus for the species.

Which pretty much amounts to what you say in your last paragraph. We're on the same page here as far as I can tell.


-B

Didn't misread it, just went off on my own tangent, which is one that interests me. That's why I added the sentence at the end, to reassure you I wasn't ignoring your point.

The only place where I still disagree with you is the idea (if that is what you are suggesting?) that degrading porn comes primarliy from the bdsm or other kinky fetish niche providers. I don't think it does. When I think of degrading sex porn sites, I think of the more "vanilla" sites that do not overtly associate themselves with whips-n-chains or anything that is non-standard sexually: bangbus, fart in her face, anal destroyers, chick trick, back office banging, see my ex-girlfriend naked--note: those aren't necessarily real site names, although some are. You know, the "hahaha you're a stupid greedy naive whore for having sex with us, we tricked you!" sorts of sites. Even the relatively mainstream cumshot productions frequently heavily play up the degrading aspects of blowing a load on a woman's body, particularly her face. There are a huge number of such reality-tv "vanilla degradation" porn sites on the web, which leads me to believe that vanilla men are more and more interested in degrading women.

Oh, I wanted to say one more thing about those vanilla degradation sites. I love humiliation, so the content of those sites is often exciting to me, but at the same time the weakness and insecurity I sense the humilation springing from is a large turn-off. It's a mixed experience and I often have to completely restructure the premises of the humiliating acts in my mind in order to get off on them. On most of these sites you get the sense that the men aren't humiliating women because it is the thing that gets them off the most, but more because they feel a childish need to "get back" at them or to reduce females into something smaller than they actually are so that they can feel "big" by comparison. Men weak enough to practice sexual degradation not for sexual fulfillment but because they're actually scared shitless of the opposite sex and are trying to bring their fears into some sort of faux control by acting out, are not very arousing, I'm afraid.

 

[Pure]

i think those basic points are right, stir. degradation is so much part of the warp and weft of porn, it has even been officially proposed to define porn* -- though that is a conservataive attempt to grind an ax.

anger, if not hostility towards woman is commonly fused in the sex drive, at least in the modern male. many words reflect this fusion, e.g., 'nailed' means fucked, but also 'shot accurately [and killed]' (the quail flew up in front of me and i nailed it).

in that sense a 'sadistic' impulse is simply the amping up of something already there: from 'waxed her butt' to 'whipped her butt.'
-----

*porn, they say, is the graphic display of sex in a way that degrades some (typically the women), if not all of the participants.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

Olivia,

for all the times I looked at a pretty face, or tits, or ass and was thwarted, here - I'm putting my lust all over you.

Oh, nice! Very apt, I think.


As for the breast fetish, let's start a club! I've had an obsession with tits my whole life and yes, it embarasses me and frustrates me that I'm not supposed to stare at them. Certainly it's widely considered rude when men stare at tits, but it's a normal and acceptable rudeness. When women stare at tits it's not just rude, it's perverted.


-B

Breast fetish club - in a way, it seems like such a simple, ordinary fetish, but the way it plays out in my objectification fantasies, it feels kind of ... sick. Even with you saying you have this fetish too, I still think "oh, but if she really saw my fantasies, she'd be disgusted".

Do you love attention to your own breasts as well? I know I do - tremendously.

Hey - this might be a thread hijack. There are breast threads for pictures, but this specific focus on breasts and desire -where would a thread for this belong? Here in BDSM Talk? I think so, because part of it is about objectification.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

Olivia said It is that there is pleasure in payback. eg: for all the times I looked at a pretty face, or tits, or ass and was thwarted, here - I'm putting my lust all over you.

P: well stated and insightful! it's consistent with the feelings stated by author of definition #9.

O: It's desire, shaped my my own experience of shame and frustration.

P: welcome to S/M and Topopolis.

Pure, I am finally getting it - I belong somewhere in the s/m world. I had not related to s/m stuff I'd seen in the past. What turned me on seemed to fall outside of any catagories I could see. Now I see it is really highly individual. Reading the internal experience, rather then just seeing images, is making this clearer.

Thanks for the welcome. So very satisfying to meet women who I can relate to.

 

[Netzach]

Breast fetish club - in a way, it seems like such a simple, ordinary fetish, but the way it plays out in my objectification fantasies, it feels kind of ... sick. Even with you saying you have this fetish too, I still think "oh, but if she really saw my fantasies, she'd be disgusted".

I just have to interject -- while I don't know the nooks and crannies of my dear bb's innermost desires I have theories as to their nature (depraved )

I'd say it's HIGHLY unlikely she'd be disgusted.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

I just have to interject -- while I don't know the nooks and crannies of my dear bb's innermost desires I have theories as to their nature (depraved )

I'd say it's HIGHLY unlikely she'd be disgusted.

Yes, I think you might be right. I have an exaggerated sense of how different I am. That's what is becoming apparent to me.

 

[Pure]

Hi Olivia,

Hey - this might be a thread hijack. There are breast threads for pictures, but this specific focus on breasts and desire -where would a thread for this belong? Here in BDSM Talk? I think so, because part of it is about objectification.

I have no problem with this, provided it's not about pinups from Playboy and "DD" magazine, not simply 'admire 'em and lick 'em'. IOW 'desire and shame" --your words. Most fetish, IMO, has 'top' and/or 'bottom' potential, so long as it's not solitary (like collecting of women's discarded shoes) or not simply role play (like me and my partner wearing PVC when we get it on). Also, consistent with the BDSM forum, besides* fantasies to jack/jill to, one would like to hear of actual events, the acting out of said desire and shame in the real world.

It's an axiom of Topopolis that no one--IOW its citizens-- has to fit a category--particularly dom or sub--to be part of the deviate/'pervy' world, where those 'pervy' happenings have, as described above, an SM dimension etc.

---
*note that i did not say 'excluding'.

 

[Netzach]

Hey - this might be a thread hijack. There are breast threads for pictures, but this specific focus on breasts and desire -where would a thread for this belong? Here in BDSM Talk? I think so, because part of it is about objectification.

I have no problem with this, provided it's not about pinups from Playboy and "DD" magazine, not simply 'admire 'em and lick 'em'. IOW 'desire and shame" --your words. Most fetish, IMO, has 'top' and/or 'bottom' potential, so long as it's not solitary (like collecting of women's discarded shoes) or not simply role play (like me and my partner wearing PVC when we get it on). Also, consistent with the BDSM forum, besides* fantasies to jack/jill to, one would like to hear of actual events, the acting out of said desire and shame in the real world.

It's an axiom of Topopolis that no one--IOW its citizens-- has to fit a category--particularly dom or sub--to be part of the deviate/'pervy' world, where those 'pervy' happenings have, as described above, an SM dimension etc.

---
*note that i did not say 'excluding'.

PVC is roleplay? Like, let's be picnic tablecloths together, baby?

I see a shiny egalitarian future. No genders just rubber blanketing everyone, latex allergies cured forever. Bodies humping anonymously and perfectly safely in the streets.

 

[Recidiva]

Yes, I think you might be right. I have an exaggerated sense of how different I am. That's what is becoming apparent to me.

Yes, it's great, I used to think I was edgy and bad.

And I'm just average here. It rocks.

 

[alice_underneath]

Pure asked me for help in posting another image for discussion.

Here it is:


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e16/alice_emerging/will099_bite_crop3J_lighten1.jpg

 

[Pure]

question of the day--a perv with morals?

when you have a strong set of pervy impulse and act on them-- is it difficult to keep your morals?

for example, suppose you act on impulses of the 'submissive' sort, toward being imposed on and commanded?

evidence that the answer is 'yes, morals are hard.' look at the ordinary sexual impulse and where it takes people (into lies, deception, infidelity, theft). Yet the deviate impulses are likely even stronger. The 'perv' has just *got to act on those impulses, as one sees in the furtive cyberdom or cybersub, or sneak-away-for-a-weekend 'sub.'

 

[Recidiva]

when you have a strong set of pervy impulse and act on them-- is it difficult to keep your morals?

for example, suppose you act on impulses of the 'submissive' sort, toward being imposed on and commanded?

evidence that the answer is 'yes, morals are hard.' look at the ordinary sexual impulse and where it takes people (into lies, deception, infidelity, theft). Yet the deviate impulses are likely even stronger. The 'perv' has just *got to act on those impulses, as one sees in the furtive cyberdom or cybersub, or sneak-away-for-a-weekend 'sub.'

When you meet a person that's been working on both in tandem, you have someone with strong to inhuman will, and also strong to inhuman desires.

Those are the best kind, in my opinion.

They've had enough practice at it.

 

[FurryFury]

I think sexual impulses are sexual impulses. "Ordinary" or "perve" labels do not IMO denote inherently greater or lesser urges. All hard wired sexual impulses are VERY strong no matter how they are labeled.

What we have seen throughout history about the way people choose to follow these impulses is that either or both can be ignored or dangerously taken to dangerous lengths.

Like all hard wired or acquired impulses it depends solely on the character of the individual how and if they do unethical or illegal things to satisfy their impulses.

The only major difference I see is that more "pervy" activities than "ordinary" might be illegal in my/your/their state.

Fury

 

[alice_underneath]

when you have a strong set of pervy impulse and act on them-- is it difficult to keep your morals?

for example, suppose you act on impulses of the 'submissive' sort, toward being imposed on and commanded?

evidence that the answer is 'yes, morals are hard.' look at the ordinary sexual impulse and where it takes people (into lies, deception, infidelity, theft). Yet the deviate impulses are likely even stronger. The 'perv' has just *got to act on those impulses, as one sees in the furtive cyberdom or cybersub, or sneak-away-for-a-weekend 'sub.'

I'm not sure my deviant impulses are very well-developed, so I may not be the best person to answer your question.

However, I would say that any strong basic need that is not being satisfied is going to put a powerful strain on a person's moral standards.

Think Jean Valjean - an eminently decent human being, driven to steal a loaf of bread because his family is starving.

Would you describe your deviant impulse as a need, Pure?

 

[Pure]

alice; furry

Yes, alice, 'impulses' is perhaps too narrow and makes them seem fleeting-- hence also --drives, needs, desires.

If I may quote Ms Netzach,

N: The only thing that makes me a Dominant is I got smacked with the Dominant stick when they were handing out sexualities and other people got smacked with the submissive ones. It makes me thrill to experience helplessness, frustration, tease, discomfort, overt displays of submission, overt displays of sexually *conquored* fervor etc. in my sex partners and it makes me unable to get excited about sex and relationships in which I can't periodically and regularly get in touch with my sense of control over the whole thing. If I go long enough without that control, I go crazy and I'm unhappy overall.

This too sounds like 'need' and desire, IMO.

---
Furry,

FFI think sexual impulses are sexual impulses. "Ordinary" or "perve" labels do not IMO denote inherently greater or lesser urges. All hard wired sexual impulses are VERY strong no matter how they are labeled.

P:It's tricky to judge what is 'hard wired'; the human is never simply animal, and sexual desire is shaped culturally since birth. So as to 'inherently greater', I don't know. But as to the experienced strength of the desire, this is the evidence I'm thinking of:

Much as with homosexual impulses/desires, we see those with so called 'perverted' ones going to great length, spending much money, taking huge risks-- sometime putting family and reputation on the line.

Of course we see those with criminal impulses or desires in the sexual area are often impossible to 'cure' or control.

So in my opinion as to general impression, besides the morality breaking tendency of the 'nilla or basic, heterosex impulse and drive, the 'perv' likely feels a greater urgency and compulsion.

Add to that, that the submitting person is looking for a 'Master' who is going to dictate certain things. This might easily conflict with the morals of the submitting one. What think you of this, furry?

As to character:
FF: Like all hard wired or acquired impulses it depends solely on the character of the individual how and if they do unethical or illegal things to satisfy their impulses.

I hear you and agree people can 'channel' impulses and, for instance, stay within the law. Suppressing is trickier. I note too that 'character' does NOT always withstand even the normal libidinal push. It's like a dike, true-- but against an ocean, sometimes there are leaks or breaches.

The analogy with 'gay' drives and needs illustrates the point well: the felllow of upstanding rep. ends up in the public washroom of the park.

 

[Olivia_Yearns]

when you have a strong set of pervy impulse and act on them-- is it difficult to keep your morals? ...

Morals? My impulses go against every ounce of my ordinary ego - who I believe I am supposed to be, what I respect in myself, and the role I play in my professional and social life. Exactly counter to every bit of who I expect myself to be.

 

[Hester]

Morals? My impulses go against every ounce of my ordinary ego - who I believe I am supposed to be, what I respect in myself, and the role I play in my professional and social life. Exactly counter to every bit of who I expect myself to be.

ditto

 

[Pure]

olivia, hester, alice

but of course your character protects you from doing wrong, no?

 

[alice_underneath]

but of course your character protects you from doing wrong, no?

You're such a bad boy, Pure.


To answer your question....

For me, I'm not sure it's character so much as the strictures of society. They're wrapped around me pretty tight, and extremely difficult to pry loose.

~~~

I am off for family celebrations for a few days. Happy Mother's Day to all the pervy moms out there.....

Alice

 

[Pure]

solution

if it's just social strictures, then wait until night fall.

 

[bridgeburner]

Much as with homosexual impulses/desires, we see those with so called 'perverted' ones going to great length, spending much money, taking huge risks-- sometime putting family and reputation on the line.

Of course we see those with criminal impulses or desires in the sexual area are often impossible to 'cure' or control.

So in my opinion as to general impression, besides the morality breaking tendency of the 'nilla or basic, heterosex impulse and drive, the 'perv' likely feels a greater urgency and compulsion.

I don't think you can point to the lengths pervs will go to in order to indulge their kink and conclude that their drives are necessarily stronger or more compelling than the non-pervy. The difference isn't in the drive it's in whose acts are most restricted.

If vanilla sex were illegal or greatly restricted then most of the population would be breaking the law or secretly and desperately pushing social boundaries in order to scratch their itch.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

Breast fetish club - in a way, it seems like such a simple, ordinary fetish, but the way it plays out in my objectification fantasies, it feels kind of ... sick. Even with you saying you have this fetish too, I still think "oh, but if she really saw my fantasies, she'd be disgusted".

Netzach knows me well and has called it true. My fantasies are actually tamer now than when I was a child......or at least less permanently destructive to the players in my fantasies, but my fixation is the same. I'll drop you a PM and then you'll know for sure how out-there some of my thoughts have been.

Do you love attention to your own breasts as well? I know I do - tremendously.

Absolutely. Find me a breast-man and his fixation will make up for great lack of talent in any number of other areas.

 

[bridgeburner]

I just have to interject -- while I don't know the nooks and crannies of my dear bb's innermost desires I have theories as to their nature (depraved )

I'd say it's HIGHLY unlikely she'd be disgusted.

Yep! Yep! Yep!!