RoperTrace
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Thanks for the review, I thought the first one was fairly easy to follow, and am looking forward to the new one, except that it's 3 hours long. Did you watch or stream this one at home?
TODAY'S MOVIES.
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nice90sguy
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Personally I stream a lot of stuff, but this movie really needs to be seen on a REALLY big screen.
TadOverdon
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I went for the whole schmear - IMAX, 3D, high frame rate.
These movies aren't so notable for their stories as for the experience of somehow being in that space, and they are vivid. YMMV.
TheRedChamber
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Hopefully the thread has addressed how to improve the audio quality of movies, so I can ambush the thread with a little bit of waffle on the above topics. I'm a moderate/light Trekie. I watched the first season of Discovery, wasn't in a rush to watch the second, noped out of Picard after the first couple of episodes, but recently heard on a podcast that Strange New Worlds was by far the best of the new Trek series, so decided to give it a go. At the same time, it occurred to me that I'd never actually seen most of Deep Space Nine due to not having a television at university, so I'm watching both of them at the same time. Supposedly then I'm watching the best of the 80-90s Trek along with the best of the modern Trek. A couple of things occurred to me.
1) The production values on the new Trek are as far ahead of DS9 as DS9 was ahead of the original (Kirk/Spock) series. Everything looks absolutely stunning all the time. There's light everywhere - reflecting off the floors, the glow of engines reflecting off characters faces, red alert bathing the whole bridge in a new colour etc. It looks great, but the constant contrast of light and dark could make it difficult to watch in anything less than ideal conditions. Essentially, for what is now called prestige TV we're getting movie level production every episode. Similarly, I've not had any problems hearing dialogue (and my ears aren't great), but I have noticed that the soundtrack is very obtrusive, especially because it loves to quote classic leitmotifs from the original soundtrack and wants to make damn sure you notice them. On the other hand, I haven't really noticed the DS9 background music at all and I'm going to make an effort to pay special attention to it in the next episode I watch.
2) Simon is right about the amount of knowledge needed in some of these modern series. Even as someone who has been watching Star Trek basically their whole lives, its convoluted. Part of the problem is the current obsession (starting with the JJ Abram's movies) of trying to revisit and build up the Original Series era. For those who haven't been following, the captain of the Enterprise for this series, Pike, is the immediate precursor to Kirk and whose grisley fate we learnt of in a mid-first season episode in 1966 (i.e 57 damn years ago) which I kind of remember, but am a bit hazy on what exactly happened to him. But since starting SNW, I've also discovered that Pike was the captain in the second season of Discovery (i.e immediately after I stopped watching) and during which time had precognition of his fate which he's now struggling with (plus Spock has a previously unknown fiance who I'm confused about...). So I now have the decision of whether to go back and keep watching the show I wasn't enjoying to get extra context, to look everything up on the Internet or just roll with it. The point is that I'm getting very different context for this story that say someone who had watched all of Discovery but was completely unaware of the Original Series.
It gets even more convoluted, however, in that I learned by accident when reading about the series generally that the current Cheif Medical Officer - Doctor M'Benga was actually a character in the original series as well (I felt bad about not remembering him until I discovered he'd only appeared in two episodes) but serving under McCoy - implying that this character will get demoted at some point. Is that useful or important information for the viewer or just an Easter Egg for superfans (but because of the Internet the superfans immediately tell the regular fans anyway).
But then the show also does trade on that fore-knowledge in strange (new) ways as well. A lot has been made in the opening episodes as to whether Cadet Uhura has a future in Star Fleet - to which presumably everyone is going 'yes, she'll be fine'. Presumably the writers are expecting us to be interested in the journey rather than the destination - presumably because 'everyone loves Uhura', but do we love this version of the character written by these people and portrayed (rather differently) by this actress? We've had the same thing recently with Han Solo and Galadriel. One of the issues with a lot of modern reinventions is that, for the old-hands, they come across as fan-fiction by people we don't know. Fan-fiction can be good, great even, but there's a tendancy to look at these new versions trying to add lore to existing characters and wondering if its not Roddenbury/Lucas/Tolkien how it's any more valid than our own head-canon about these characters.
Oooh, I think I really am rambling as I'm going to have to do the thing where I break the post into two. I haven't even reached my main point yet...
Last edited:
Bramblethorn
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I remember almost nothing of the story from the first one - and what I remember wasn't anything to write home about - but it sure was pretty.
I kinda wish film-makers felt free just to make a movie that's three hours of pretty visuals and maybe some music. I feel like I'd enjoy them more if I could just sit back and enjoy the scenery without trying to feign interest in a plot that's only there because they felt obliged to put it in. Koyaanisqatsi did pretty well.
TheRedChamber
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So, anyhoo...
The thing is Strange New Worlds is good. I'm four episodes in and each one has been a strong episode with good stories that could have worked well in any era of the franchise and all of which benefitted from the extra budget. The stories aren't wholley original, but you could very definitely say that about a lot of the DS9 espisodes as there'd already been 200+ episodes of Trek made by the time that show started. They've cut series down from 20-26 episodes to 10-13 episodes which is good for focus and overall quality. But, while I'm enjoying the show generally, I couldn't help but feel there's something a bit off with the way the characters or dialogue and, as a new writer, set myself the challenge of trying to work out what it was.
At first I thought it might be 'Buffy dialogue' in which every situation, no matter how serious or dangerous needs to be finished off with a quip lest the audience get bored - nevermind if such a joke makes sense for the current characters. There's a certain amount of that - Spock tries to give Uhura a pep talk when she's scared to death on her first away mission and she tells him his pep talks suck, despite supposedly being intimidated by the senior officers. Similarly there's a recurring theme of Pike saying "we need to escape by doing [crazy dangerous thing]" - the pilot saying a quippy version of "But, captain, [crazy dangerous thing] is crazy dangerous" - and then Pike saying "But you're the best pilot in the fleet. If we're going to do [crazy dangerous thing], you're the person to do it." But overall, this kind of thing, while present, isn't as strong or as jarring as it is on some other modern series - especially after its explained that Pike believes in optimism and humour as an important part of keeping the crew morale up.
It's also not anything directly to do with 'female empowerment' or 'woke writing' or whatever you want to call it. We live in times where a lot of media franchises are trying to do female heroes better, they're arguably not always doing it well and going too far and certain sections of the Internet are vicious about any attempt. (For the record, I think plain bad writing has been a problem with Rey, Galadrial and the Lower Decks Star Trek series - which I'm not talking about here because it would be a whole other conversation and would also be a rant). It is worth noting that it does seem to be the first Star Trek to have parity between the number of male and female main characters (except maybe again the Lower Decks which I'm lothe to count). Everyone's hyper-competent, but that's always an expected feature of Trek and its not at the expense of male characters (so far and Uhura's slight ribbing of Spock aside).
I think I've finally decided that the problem I have with the show is that it mistakes having a backstory and character arc for its characters having actually character. As mentioned above Pike has knowledge about his future hanging over him like a dark cloud and was thinking about not returning to Star Fleet, Uhura has a new tragic backstory and is thinking about not continuing with Star Fleet, Doctor M'Benga has a tragic backstory and offered to resign from Star Fleet because of it, Number One Chin-Riley has a dark secret and offered to resign from Star Fleet because of it, Security Officer Noonian-Singh is suffering serious mental trauma due to her tragic backstory at the hands of the series main villian (...who have been in exactly one episode of the Original Series, one episode of the Animated Series, one episode of Enterprise and three episode of Discovery - but don't worry Simon, we've written an article for you...). And I'm only on episode four.
The problem becomes that everyone is so involved in their own hyper-serious plotlines and whatever the story of the week is, that there's not much time for them to be actual characters. For the main story, they're doing whatever the person in that role would do - (so Uhura translates alien languages, M'Benga and Chappel treat patients) and then there's a little diversion where they tell another person about their backstory and that person says something generally but generically supportive - because they're not actually involved in that person's issues and because actual solutions to their problem are probably whole season's away.
And as a result, even if the story has finished with the Enterprise solving whatever the problem of the week is and making the galaxy a better place, each episode ends under a cloud because everyone's already got so much unresolved shit to process.
(And this is going to be a three post analysis - oops sorry)
The thing is Strange New Worlds is good. I'm four episodes in and each one has been a strong episode with good stories that could have worked well in any era of the franchise and all of which benefitted from the extra budget. The stories aren't wholley original, but you could very definitely say that about a lot of the DS9 espisodes as there'd already been 200+ episodes of Trek made by the time that show started. They've cut series down from 20-26 episodes to 10-13 episodes which is good for focus and overall quality. But, while I'm enjoying the show generally, I couldn't help but feel there's something a bit off with the way the characters or dialogue and, as a new writer, set myself the challenge of trying to work out what it was.
At first I thought it might be 'Buffy dialogue' in which every situation, no matter how serious or dangerous needs to be finished off with a quip lest the audience get bored - nevermind if such a joke makes sense for the current characters. There's a certain amount of that - Spock tries to give Uhura a pep talk when she's scared to death on her first away mission and she tells him his pep talks suck, despite supposedly being intimidated by the senior officers. Similarly there's a recurring theme of Pike saying "we need to escape by doing [crazy dangerous thing]" - the pilot saying a quippy version of "But, captain, [crazy dangerous thing] is crazy dangerous" - and then Pike saying "But you're the best pilot in the fleet. If we're going to do [crazy dangerous thing], you're the person to do it." But overall, this kind of thing, while present, isn't as strong or as jarring as it is on some other modern series - especially after its explained that Pike believes in optimism and humour as an important part of keeping the crew morale up.
It's also not anything directly to do with 'female empowerment' or 'woke writing' or whatever you want to call it. We live in times where a lot of media franchises are trying to do female heroes better, they're arguably not always doing it well and going too far and certain sections of the Internet are vicious about any attempt. (For the record, I think plain bad writing has been a problem with Rey, Galadrial and the Lower Decks Star Trek series - which I'm not talking about here because it would be a whole other conversation and would also be a rant). It is worth noting that it does seem to be the first Star Trek to have parity between the number of male and female main characters (except maybe again the Lower Decks which I'm lothe to count). Everyone's hyper-competent, but that's always an expected feature of Trek and its not at the expense of male characters (so far and Uhura's slight ribbing of Spock aside).
I think I've finally decided that the problem I have with the show is that it mistakes having a backstory and character arc for its characters having actually character. As mentioned above Pike has knowledge about his future hanging over him like a dark cloud and was thinking about not returning to Star Fleet, Uhura has a new tragic backstory and is thinking about not continuing with Star Fleet, Doctor M'Benga has a tragic backstory and offered to resign from Star Fleet because of it, Number One Chin-Riley has a dark secret and offered to resign from Star Fleet because of it, Security Officer Noonian-Singh is suffering serious mental trauma due to her tragic backstory at the hands of the series main villian (...who have been in exactly one episode of the Original Series, one episode of the Animated Series, one episode of Enterprise and three episode of Discovery - but don't worry Simon, we've written an article for you...). And I'm only on episode four.
The problem becomes that everyone is so involved in their own hyper-serious plotlines and whatever the story of the week is, that there's not much time for them to be actual characters. For the main story, they're doing whatever the person in that role would do - (so Uhura translates alien languages, M'Benga and Chappel treat patients) and then there's a little diversion where they tell another person about their backstory and that person says something generally but generically supportive - because they're not actually involved in that person's issues and because actual solutions to their problem are probably whole season's away.
And as a result, even if the story has finished with the Enterprise solving whatever the problem of the week is and making the galaxy a better place, each episode ends under a cloud because everyone's already got so much unresolved shit to process.
(And this is going to be a three post analysis - oops sorry)
TheRedChamber
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So where I am going with all this? (I'm going somewhere I promise)
One thing I've noticed in modern story-telling (and which frankly has annoyed me no end) is this belief that saving the world needs to be secondary to solving your own personal issues - heros need to carry a dark burden with them that is as important as whatever the existential threat is and need to work through it as part of the process of accomplishing the mission. Its cropped up in modern Bond movies a lot (and made them incredibly tedious as a result) - Marvel movies have largely avoided it, I think, which is probably why I tend to enjoy them a lot more. Still, it's managable when your writing a movie or TV which is focused on just one main character, in an ensemble piece like a Star Trek show, well it all gets a bit much.
I should also have made the point earlier that shows take a while to settle down, so maybe I'm being overly critical. But my main problem with Strange New Worlds at the moment is that I would struggle to describe the personality most of the main characters except when they are legacy characters.
Anyway, the issue is that the series just isn't very good at having characters meet and have their personalities bounce off each other organically. Because the series is trying to be movie like all the time, it seems to think that all the events and story-arcs need to be of movie-level importance all the time (and note that Star Trek only ever made movies once the characters were well established and beloved, allowing them to skip over that stuff a bit and get straight(ish) to the action) and everything in the first series seems to be setting up long arcs for characters that we (I) don't yet care about. This I think is one of the hallmarks of a lot of modern screen writing. In contrast, the 80s/90s series, which couldn't rely on the same level of budget, had to fill time with characters actually talking to each other like people at least some of the time between phaser-battles and spaceships crashing.
I was going to give some specific examples from the older series, but I think these posts already have enough of an 'old man shouts at cloud' vibe to them and have gone on way longer than I intended (plus I'm supposed to be at work), so I'll wrap it up here for now.
One thing I've noticed in modern story-telling (and which frankly has annoyed me no end) is this belief that saving the world needs to be secondary to solving your own personal issues - heros need to carry a dark burden with them that is as important as whatever the existential threat is and need to work through it as part of the process of accomplishing the mission. Its cropped up in modern Bond movies a lot (and made them incredibly tedious as a result) - Marvel movies have largely avoided it, I think, which is probably why I tend to enjoy them a lot more. Still, it's managable when your writing a movie or TV which is focused on just one main character, in an ensemble piece like a Star Trek show, well it all gets a bit much.
I should also have made the point earlier that shows take a while to settle down, so maybe I'm being overly critical. But my main problem with Strange New Worlds at the moment is that I would struggle to describe the personality most of the main characters except when they are legacy characters.
Anyway, the issue is that the series just isn't very good at having characters meet and have their personalities bounce off each other organically. Because the series is trying to be movie like all the time, it seems to think that all the events and story-arcs need to be of movie-level importance all the time (and note that Star Trek only ever made movies once the characters were well established and beloved, allowing them to skip over that stuff a bit and get straight(ish) to the action) and everything in the first series seems to be setting up long arcs for characters that we (I) don't yet care about. This I think is one of the hallmarks of a lot of modern screen writing. In contrast, the 80s/90s series, which couldn't rely on the same level of budget, had to fill time with characters actually talking to each other like people at least some of the time between phaser-battles and spaceships crashing.
I was going to give some specific examples from the older series, but I think these posts already have enough of an 'old man shouts at cloud' vibe to them and have gone on way longer than I intended (plus I'm supposed to be at work), so I'll wrap it up here for now.
Seadog777
American Man
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I absolutely agree.
Hollywood is so dependent on special effects because the attention span of our declining society is getting shorter and shorter.
They got to use SE to keep people interested.
Seadog777
American Man
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I can not stay awake watching the first Avatar movie.
I've heard that this one is actually better.
What did you think???
I watch everything with captions as well but for different reasons than you and your partner.
The actor and actresses mumble a lot, so I need to see what the frell they're saying.
Demiurging
Really Experienced
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Recently, I began watching Star Trek TNG from the beginning, since before I'd only seen what my father was watching in the background and didn't have the attention span or the interest to remember much. Now It's one of my favorite series and I go back to it specifically for the sense of professionalism the cast portrayed. Then I gave Discovery two episodes...
As well, last year I decided to read the entire Rama series, and the first one was a masterpiece of science fiction. Then came the rest...
Who decided the cast of big brother were worthy replacements to our intelligent, diligent main characters?
As well, last year I decided to read the entire Rama series, and the first one was a masterpiece of science fiction. Then came the rest...
Who decided the cast of big brother were worthy replacements to our intelligent, diligent main characters?
SimonDoom
Kink Lord
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Another related element is how dark some contemporary movies/TV shows are. I wonder if it's harder to tell what people are saying on the screen when their lips are obscured by darkness.
For instance, many complained about how dark the Winterfell battle scene was in the last Game of Thrones season. I thought the latest GOT series was often quite dark as well.
For instance, many complained about how dark the Winterfell battle scene was in the last Game of Thrones season. I thought the latest GOT series was often quite dark as well.
RoperTrace
Literotica Guru
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I confess to not being the best at following stories, but the first Avatar had a good story line in my mind. I later read that Hollywood was making a statement about how we(white Euro immigrants) stole the land and resources from Native Americans, and after hearing that, it fits rather well. I'm a sci-fy enthusiast, and thought the visuals were great, especially the flying scenes on dragons, and the jungle itself. My wife who normally isn't a sci-fy fan also enjoyed it, which surprised me. We both want to see the new one, more for the underwater visuals than the story line.
Bramblethorn
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Yeah, there was definitely that Native American allegory, and I think they meant well, but it ended up being very White Savior - guy comes into some native culture, and within a few months he's so good at all the native skills (fighting, dragon-riding, whatever) that he's leading the people who've been doing that stuff their whole lives. It ends up being much more that guy's story than about the people he's supposed to be saving. I've seen a few too many of those, I guess.
TadOverdon
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I enjoyed both of them. I liked the second one better.
Recooter
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I loved the first, but haven't seen the 2nd.
