There's one thing about the American administration...

p_p_man

The 'Euro' European
Joined
Feb 18, 2001
Posts
24,253
it sure knows how to draw the worst type of publicity to itself.

So in the year it's had since taking office to sort out the "problems" the Clinton years created, it has managed to alienate such large sections of the world community your own President is no longer able to travel abroad and be assured of a warm welcome by the people wherever he goes or with any guarantees of his personal safety.

Some boss eh? Imprisoned in his own country.

This debacle of the prisoners on Cuba is just the latest in a growing line of debacles. We've all seen the photographs by now of sensory deprived men shuffling along in manacles and being housed in single units open to the elements with corrugated metal roofs.

And these are men who it has not yet been proved have forfeited their right to protection under the Geneva Convention. As America loses the morale high ground, dragging the UK with it by association, we are all waiting for the report of the International Red Cross on the conditions the prisoners live under.

More appropriately the US Government should pre-empt any report, good or bad that the Red Cross produces, call the prisoners by their proper status of Prisoners of War and start treating them in a more humane fashion.

By putting them on Cuba the Bush government hoped it would keep them away from unwanted attention. Fat chance of that when the whole world can see the photographs being published worldwide as we speak.

At the moment there's a three man Parliamentary visit being made from the UK to interview the British prisoners.

On top of which, as the following news item shows, America's staunchest ally in this "war" is becoming concerned over Bush's blatent diregard as to how a "civilised" country should act in these cirumstances:

"British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said in a statement that 'prisoners, regardless of their technical status, should be treated humanely and in accordance with customary international law.

'We have always made that clear and the Americans have said they share this view...As for the photographs of detainees published today, I have asked our officials in Guantanamo Bay to establish with the U.S. the circumstances in which these photographs were taken.''


And the UK is only one country. These same sentiments are being repeated around the globe.

And the excuses the administration is giving to explain the way the prisoners are guarded are becoming a joke in themselves. So far they range from the prisoners being the most dangerous of men; that they constantly threaten their guards, that one guard was bitten on the arm and that they may spread TB.

All these excuses achieve, as the photographs of blindfolded, deafened and shackled men are led stumbling around a small compound are published, is give the impression that the troops doing the guarding are the most cowardly, terrified men on the face of the earth. Not a good impression to give.

The US is rapidly building up future trouble for itself, not only because of the way the "war" itself was conducted, but now this.

Then I suppose we'll see the usual group of angst driven souls wringing their hands on Literotica wondering why their country can attract such hatred and distrust.

:(
 
It's Cuba, you fucking moron.

p_p_man said:
being housed in single units open to the elements with corrugated metal roofs.


:(

People pay good money to get exposed to the elements there. It doesn't get below 60 at night. Usually closer to 70.

The detainees get food, water, bathroom, and showers. Probably a hell of a lot more than what they got in Afghanistan. Do you think our guys on the ground are staying at the Afghanistan Hilton?
 
HaHa

"your own President is no longer able to travel abroad and be assured of a warm welcome by the people wherever he goes or with any guarantees of his personal safety"-

lol

Jesus Christ, are you that damned naive? Do you actually think that Clinton had assurances of safety anywhere he went? LOL does any President? Gee NO! That is why there is a Secret Service detailed to any president (whether it is any others or our chief of state). I seem to remember a certain White House gunman that emptied a clip into the White House grounds during Clinton's tenure and a small private plane that kamikazed into the White House lawn in 1993. “Personal Guarantees of safety”? What a joke! lol NO president has that and if he believed them and relied on it he wouldn’t be around for very long.

The al-Quidea prisoners HAVE forfeited their right to the Geneva Convention according to our government. Just because they haven't in YOUR book doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to the United Sates or the world at large.

Do you actually KNOW why they use sensory deprivation? Have you actually figured it out yet? BECAUSE IT WORKS! It was used successfully by YOUR government to IRA prisoners so don't get hypocritical and snippy with us. In fact, I do believe the British may have INVENTED the technique in the 1970s during their campaign against the Republican terrorist groups of Northern Ireland.

Perhaps WE SHOULD start an inquiry into how YOUR GOVERNMENT treats the IRA, Real IRA, INLA, and IRA Continuity prisoners in YOUR country?


That being said, yes I do agree with you that its a public relations nightmare. Very stupid of them, they should keep the press out of important work vital to the saftey of our nation and others.
 
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Re: HaHa

Frimost said:
The al-Quidea prisoners HAVE forfeited their right to the Geneva Convention according to our government. Just because they haven't in YOUR book doesn’t amount to a hill of beans to the United Sates or the world at large.

As on the other thread I will say this once and only once. So listen carefully.

It has not yet been proved that the prisoners on Cuba are al Qaida, Taleban or anything else for that matter, or that they do not fall within the status of Prisoners of War under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention. Until such time it is proved their status must be that of Prisoners of War under Article 5 of the Convention for the simple reason that there is doubt.

Right enough said on that.

Of course no Head of State can be guaranteed safety at anytime or any where and you're quite correct to point that out. But I don't recall previous holders of the President of the United States of America quivering like frightened rabbits (a la Bush when he was photographed getting off Air Force 1 during his great disappearance on 11 September) and hiding behind the not so safe walls of Fortress America.

Bush, through the actions of his Administration, has restricted his own movements even more than would be normally necessary. So we have a President who has declared war on a foreign country, and yet can't even travel to visit other members of the Coalition to discuss events and strategy.

Christ, I reckon he spends more time on his Texas ranch talking to his cows, than he does to world leaders. Instead he relies on another foreign leader, Tony Blair, to do the globe trotting for him.

And don't forget that the UK is Public Enemy No 2 in the terrorists eyes. But at least our man shows more guts than your's does.

I call that demeaning, wouldn't you?

Not a good move George.

Once again you are trying to divert me from a thread by raising the subject of the UK's treatment of the IRA. What that's got to do with the price of bread I don't know unless it gives you an opportunity to say "Yah! Sucks! You did that to the IRA. So don't tell us what to do with the prisoners on Cuba".

Without going into the whole question of why terrorists on both sides in Ireland were given the status of "Political Prisoners" and not of "Prisoners of War" I've given you a link to go and read it yourself. Rather than me filling up pages here on Lit.

But at least the Irish terrorists had a recognised status and were treated in accordance with that status.

Which is more than the prisoners on Cuba have.

The whole thing gives the rest of us the impression that America is running around like a headless chicken trying to work out what they should with these men and what to call them.

It all leaves a nasty taste in the mouth as well as making the US Government look like fools. For heaven's sake, didn't they expect to take any prisoners? Maybe not. Maybe they thought that by blanket bombing they would kill everyone off and not have to be bothered with the niceties of International Law.

To Bush's cowboy mentality it must seem very difficult and confusing.

Pass him a pretzel someone.

http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/history/ni.html

ppman
 
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'Scuse me Double Pee, but wouldn't the Geneva convention only apply to those who are in a formally declared war?

BTW, you'll like Black Hawk Down, very nice anti-American bullying movie.
 
jeez

p-p man, sometimes you have a coherent, semi-intelligent train of thought. Then other times you come off sounding like a complete idiot.

What is with the criticism of our security measures in protecting our head of state on September 11? Are you that stupid that you cannot fathom why a country has a plan in place to secure it's own leaders safety during a mass assassination attempt? Are you too dumb to understand that we have a hierarchy of secession in place and that we try to keep out leaders separate from each other and safe during deadly attacks on our capital?
No, I may disagree with you but even I do not believe you are so under-educated as to not be able to comprehend some common sense security measures. What IS your problem is you are so politically extreme that you let your own anti-Republicanism and pro-liberal bias cloud your judgment, thus making all your assessments partisan and tainted.

Anyway, yes, that was my point, to show to you that whenever you point a finger at us (regardless what country you come from) I can hold up a mirror so you can see your finger pointing right back at you. Sensory deprivation WAS used against IRA suspects, this I know from reading Military Intelligence journals (among other sources).

As for all the pretzel stuff, why don't you try choking one down yourself? At least our president's actions (or inactions) did not cause the slaughter of over half the entire population of our livestock. So until you have a better replacement lined-up, I say why don't you and your buddy Tony Blair share a bag of Rolds Golds together.

The main reason why Bush doesn’t travel much is because he doesn’t like too much. In addition, unlike micro-managers like Gore, or pompous asses with over inflated egos like Clinton, Bush does in fact know his own weaknesses. He knows that other people more skilled then him in diplomacy are better left handling their own business themselves. He lets the experts do their jobs with a free-hand instead of jet setting around the world like Clinton to horn in on all the photo-op opportunities that look good on the evening news but accomplish very little in reality. You see, he delegates power to others while Clinton and Gore preferred to HOG the credit for the successes of their underlings.
 
Re: jeez

Frimost said:
The main reason why Bush doesn’t travel much is because he doesn’t like too much.

Now that has to go down as the saying of the year so far!


:D :D :D
 
Frimost, there is a good reason why the attack of the security measures- everything the gov't does needs to be examened and questioned.

The US has sepnt over 325 Million dollars on air patrols over major cities since Sept. 11, and are only now considering removing them. This is a waste. The patrols did nothing in Tampa, when a rogue aircraft flew over an air force base where our military conducts afghanistan operations and into a building.
 
sd412 said:
'Scuse me Double Pee, but wouldn't the Geneva convention only apply to those who are in a formally declared war?

I've taken this straight from Yahoo.

The UN General Assembly (Resolution 3103 [XXVIII] of 8/12/49)
defines a Prisoner of War as a person:

"struggling against colonial and alien domination and racist regimes."

America would fall into the 'alien domination' category.

The Geneva Convention defines how a Prisoner of War is recognised in order to gain the status of Prisoner of War.

The UN Resolution defines what a Prisoner of War actually is.

And Article 5 of the Geneva Convention on which I'm basing my argument says that if there is doubt as to what status a prisoner falls under, then until that status is defined by a properly convened tribunal, the prisoner must be accorded the status of Prisoner of War.

So as there's doubt about the prisoners' status held on Cuba they should automatically be categorised as Prisoners of War.

Now I'm beginning to repeat myself...:D


:)
 
P_P_man, the quote in the tagline's blatantly plagiarized from Full Metal Jacket. You probably know that, but I've only got 9 posts to go before I get an avatar now :)
 
heterotic said:
P_P_man, the quote in the tagline's blatantly plagiarized from Full Metal Jacket. You probably know that, but I've only got 9 posts to go before I get an avatar now :)

If you mean this:

“If they run, they're Taliban/Al Qaeda, if they stay still, they're disciplined Taliban/Al Qaeda..."

no I didn't know...

It's almost time for a change now anyway.

Congratulations in advance on reaching your 100...

Why not do a countdown from 9...

I'll start...

9.

:D
 
Listen up!

I am from the Chicago area; I was sitting right here on my computer, posting on another bulletin board when a huge boom shook my house a few months ago. I found out from my police scanner that it was a sonic boom from some F-16s that had scrambled and where on there way to the O'Hare area airspace. I posted about it live as it was happening on the other forum. It seems a mentally disturbed guy had ran to the door of the cockpit and was screaming and kicking the door to get in. He was tackled, subdued, and sedated by the passengers and crew. The two F-16s escorted it down to the ground during landing.

Don't make wide-ranging general judgments like the air patrols don't work period. In this case IF he HAD gained control the fighter jets where there in time to shoot it down had its target been the Sears Tower thus saving thousands of lives.
 
heterotic

That's how the quote evolved. p_p_ was discussing yet another aspect of our abject failure to achieve any meaningful purpose what-so-ever in existing in any form other than a colony especially in regards to Afghanistan. We were discussing the civilian casualties, which in some strange way brought that scene to mind. I posted it, then as the conversation, er, uh rant, continued, I paraphrased the line in order to fit the situation.

Kinda like saying, FUCK Taliban! Taliban don't surf! It's landlocked, which someone needs to tell Aaron and Chuck Norris because in the movie last night, they had these fuckers parachuting away from Afghan terrorists into the Ocean! I swer, I swear, it's true!

I think they're scripting p_p_'s version of the war effort.

[translation for p_p_, WAR EFFORT - America's aggressive colonial, land-grabbin' undeclared little action against a peaceful, law-abiding band of holy clerics and haplass non-combatants.]
 
Re: It's Cuba, you fucking moron.

WriterDom said:

The detainees get food, water, bathroom, and showers. Probably a hell of a lot more than what they got in Afghanistan. Do you think our guys on the ground are staying at the Afghanistan Hilton?

Exactly what I was thinking. They have it better in Cuba than anyone I can think of in Afghanistan. Comfort is relative.
 
hmmmm

I must assume SINthysist, that you were laying down the irony thickly and frequently (especially that last part you wrote). If not, than you and p_p man should really extract you head out of your ass before you suffocate in there.
 
Oh, yeah! You'll get to know me. My tongue was nearly thrust out of my cheek. Just saving p_p_ some typing time with some stuff he could cut and paste into his next thread although I do hope he credits me properly!
 
Having said that

p_p_, it seems frimost want you to extract your head from your arse. Something about air-quality control problems...
 
I seriously doubt they're hooded an forced to kneel for hours like this in Afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1770000/images/_1770972_prisonersafp150.jpg

What your all missing is that these folks haven't been convicted of a crime. They haven't even been charged with one! You need to think about how you'd feel if another nation imprisoned americans without a trial or charges, shackled them like that, hooded. If we start treating POW's this way then we have no room to talk when other nations begin treating our boys like this.
 
It looks like they're just at one of thier five daily prayers. Contemplation of good for the soul. I still remember turning on the television intending to turn PBS on for my little one. The first tower was already burning. Then to my horror, I watched live as the second plane struck. I stayed glued to the television and watched as the towers came down.

I'll not shed a tear for these thugs!
 
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