The UN is dead, and------

[phrodeau]

Dreamguy001

Is one of those widely ignored.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Dreamguy001

Is one of those widely ignored.

Who's Dreamguy? Who's Busybody?

C'mon Bigin Texas . . . have an opinion and express it . . . otherwise you too can be totally ignored . . .

 

[BiginTexas]

Who's Dreamguy? Who's Busybody?

C'mon Bigin Texas . . . have an opinion and express it . . . otherwise you too can be totally ignored . . .

You're right. Don. Just got tired of those mealy mouths parroting what they hear. Can't stand the racism and the shit they spew in other posts either.

First, let me say that I'm a Republican. Haven't been particularly fond of your KKK stuff but at least you have something to say so I cut some slack with the theatrics.

As for Ozzies, they are drinkers, gamblers and sportsmen but they're good to have with you in a fight and we appreciate it. I know that there is a lot of resistance in Oz about Iraq and why shouldn't there be. Our President did a piss poor job of arguing the merits and getting his people out there to build a real coalition rather than one where support is razor thin. Guess you'd call me a Poppy Bush supporter (although he screwed up on the economy). James Baker and Brent Scowcroft went everywhere in '91 and the support back then was solid. It was a diplomatic touchdown by a President who knew international politics.

I held my nose when I voted for Bush Jr. two years ago. His drunken and coke addled youth and adult evangelical conversion made me uneasy. His inexperience in international relations was even more disconcerting. I mainly voted for him for economic reasons. Hell, Gore probably would have done a better job in that area.

I thought at the very least that Bush Jr. would bring in the experienced people his dad had in place but no, he went for men and women who come from a completely different brand of Republicanism, one that even Poppy was nervous about and one that Reagan felt uneasy with too.

But this discussion was about the United Nations. Listening to some pissant telling us that the U.N.'s days are numbered is laughable. Saying it is a failure only really applies to certain areas rather than the the U.N. as a whole. The Security Council has had its share of failures mainly because of the veto power of the permanent members. It is like the President having a veto and Congress having no means to overturn it in a vote. However, in all the years and especially the post Cold War years, I didn't hear America saying they wanted to reform the Security Council structure. Probably couldn't happen because China, Britain, France, the U.S. and the U.K. will never give up that power.

Still, the U.N. and the Security Council are the preeminent forum for nations to meet and to try to act on world issues. The U.S. pulling out of the organization just isn't in the cards unless they are prepared to create the agencies and programs that the U.N. has set up.

The World Health Organization is an outstanding agency. The SARs virus was identified by one of their top doctors who later died from in. He was the one that put the alert in. UNICEF is widely recognized for their good work. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees is tops in that field. I could go on.

But let's not forget the Security Council resolutions that have worked over the years. The ones that set up peacekeeping and election monitoring in Cambodia, East Timor and Namibia were outstanding. You Ozzies did a great job over there.

The failures on the Security Council though are hard to ignore. We left the Canadians asses hanging in the breeze in Rwanda. Their peacekeepers could have taken control of the country and prevented the genocide. In the end, some of the Belgian peacekeepers working under Canadian command were ambushed and had their heads cut off. And still the members of the Security Council waffled. You'll notice I say members. It wasn't the U.N. that failed but permanent and non-permament members at the time.

The U.N. needs reforms. The U.S. is powerful enough to see through many of those changes. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Ishmael]

You're right. Don. Just got tired of those mealy mouths parroting what they hear. Can't stand the racism and the shit they spew in other posts either.

Racism huh? Just another REDWAVE ranter it appears. Pretty much a "full of shit" statement. As far as 'parroting, you haven't done your homework, have you?

Originally posted by BiginTexas First, let me say that I'm a Republican. Haven't been particularly fond of your KKK stuff but at least you have something to say so I cut some slack with the theatrics.[/B]

Your political affiliation is irrevelant.

Originally posted by BiginTexas As for Ozzies, they are drinkers, gamblers and sportsmen but they're good to have with you in a fight and we appreciate it. I know that there is a lot of resistance in Oz about Iraq and why shouldn't there be. Our President did a piss poor job of arguing the merits and getting his people out there to build a real coalition rather than one where support is razor thin. Guess you'd call me a Poppy Bush supporter (although he screwed up on the economy). James Baker and Brent Scowcroft went everywhere in '91 and the support back then was solid. It was a diplomatic touchdown by a President who knew international politics.

I held my nose when I voted for Bush Jr. two years ago. His drunken and coke addled youth and adult evangelical conversion made me uneasy. His inexperience in international relations was even more disconcerting. I mainly voted for him for economic reasons. Hell, Gore probably would have done a better job in that area.

I thought at the very least that Bush Jr. would bring in the experienced people his dad had in place but no, he went for men and women who come from a completely different brand of Republicanism, one that even Poppy was nervous about and one that Reagan felt uneasy with too.[/B]

Your postings would tend to indicate that you are the last person to pass judgement on anyone engaged in international relations or diplomacy. Particularly when your credentials are restricted to having met some Australians and your name calling rantings on this forum. Rantings made in complete disregard for any of the historical discussions that have taken place.

Originally posted by BiginTexas But this discussion was about the United Nations. Listening to some pissant telling us that the U.N.'s days are numbered is laughable. Saying it is a failure only really applies to certain areas rather than the the U.N. as a whole. The Security Council has had its share of failures mainly because of the veto power of the permanent members. It is like the President having a veto and Congress having no means to overturn it in a vote. However, in all the years and especially the post Cold War years, I didn't hear America saying they wanted to reform the Security Council structure. Probably couldn't happen because China, Britain, France, the U.S. and the U.K. will never give up that power.[/B]

Please point out where anyone has said that the United Nations will cease to exist, or where I, in particular, has advocated withdrawal? Once again you resort to invective with no substance to back it up.

Your utterances would seem to indicate that you are in favor of a "one world governemn" at the expense of the soveriegnty of the individual nations. As interesting a notion that may seem to you, it does nothing but legitimize the tyranny of the majority. While that fine day may come. It won't be in our lifetime, and it won't be achieved within the current charter and structure of the UN.

Reform of the securtiy council in what form? More efficient perhaps? With what teeth to back it up? I can spend the next week ripping that notion to shreds.

By it's own actions the UN has marginialized itself. It is a diplomatic body, not a governing body. It has never been a governing body and it should not be a governing body, at least not into the foreseeable future.

Originally posted by BiginTexas Still, the U.N. and the Security Council are the preeminent forum for nations to meet and to try to act on world issues. The U.S. pulling out of the organization just isn't in the cards unless they are prepared to create the agencies and programs that the U.N. has set up.[/B]

Again, where has this been stated? You've 'assumed'. And assumed poorly I might add.

Originally posted by BiginTexas The World Health Organization is an outstanding agency. The SARs virus was identified by one of their top doctors who later died from in. He was the one that put the alert in. UNICEF is widely recognized for their good work. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees is tops in that field. I could go on.

But let's not forget the Security Council resolutions that have worked over the years. The ones that set up peacekeeping and election monitoring in Cambodia, East Timor and Namibia were outstanding. You Ozzies did a great job over there.

The failures on the Security Council though are hard to ignore. We left the Canadians asses hanging in the breeze in Rwanda. Their peacekeepers could have taken control of the country and prevented the genocide. In the end, some of the Belgian peacekeepers working under Canadian command were ambushed and had their heads cut off. And still the members of the Security Council waffled. You'll notice I say members. It wasn't the U.N. that failed but permanent and non-permament members at the time.[/B]

There are portions of the UN that have provided valuable assistance. Particularly in the are of humanitarian assistance. I recall no one stating otherwise.

As far as waffling is concerned, that is their right as soveriegn nation states. Once again I remind you that the UN is not a governing body.

Originally posted by BiginTexas The U.N. needs reforms. The U.S. is powerful enough to see through many of those changes. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. [/B]

The US is not going to see those changes through. It is not in our interest to establish a world governing body, nor would any attempt for us to do so be accetped by the majority of nations that would be required for that to occur. Nor would we, or anyother nation, allow an entity to come into being that would abrogate or supercede our ability to govern ourselves or otherwise act in our own self interest.

Your "baby out with the bath water" statement would seem to indicate that you believe the UN to be some immature form of a "one world government." It isn't. It is not organinzed in such a manner to ever be one. And until there is one world culture and a world where each and every nation is a democracy with the same respect for human rights and individual freedoms will there be a basis for any world organization to fulfill that role. Unless, of course, you are advocating the violent military imposition of these prerequisites.

Ishmael

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

You're right. Don. Just got tired of those mealy mouths parroting what they hear. Can't stand the racism and the shit they spew in other posts either.

First, let me say that I'm a Republican. Haven't been particularly fond of your KKK stuff but at least you have something to say so I cut some slack with the theatrics.

As for Ozzies, they are drinkers, gamblers and sportsmen but they're good to have with you in a fight and we appreciate it. I know that there is a lot of resistance in Oz about Iraq and why shouldn't there be. Our President did a piss poor job of arguing the merits and getting his people out there to build a real coalition rather than one where support is razor thin. Guess you'd call me a Poppy Bush supporter (although he screwed up on the economy). James Baker and Brent Scowcroft went everywhere in '91 and the support back then was solid. It was a diplomatic touchdown by a President who knew international politics.

I held my nose when I voted for Bush Jr. two years ago. His drunken and coke addled youth and adult evangelical conversion made me uneasy. His inexperience in international relations was even more disconcerting. I mainly voted for him for economic reasons. Hell, Gore probably would have done a better job in that area.

I thought at the very least that Bush Jr. would bring in the experienced people his dad had in place but no, he went for men and women who come from a completely different brand of Republicanism, one that even Poppy was nervous about and one that Reagan felt uneasy with too.

But this discussion was about the United Nations. Listening to some pissant telling us that the U.N.'s days are numbered is laughable. Saying it is a failure only really applies to certain areas rather than the the U.N. as a whole. The Security Council has had its share of failures mainly because of the veto power of the permanent members. It is like the President having a veto and Congress having no means to overturn it in a vote. However, in all the years and especially the post Cold War years, I didn't hear America saying they wanted to reform the Security Council structure. Probably couldn't happen because China, Britain, France, the U.S. and the U.K. will never give up that power.

Still, the U.N. and the Security Council are the preeminent forum for nations to meet and to try to act on world issues. The U.S. pulling out of the organization just isn't in the cards unless they are prepared to create the agencies and programs that the U.N. has set up.

The World Health Organization is an outstanding agency. The SARs virus was identified by one of their top doctors who later died from in. He was the one that put the alert in. UNICEF is widely recognized for their good work. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees is tops in that field. I could go on.

But let's not forget the Security Council resolutions that have worked over the years. The ones that set up peacekeeping and election monitoring in Cambodia, East Timor and Namibia were outstanding. You Ozzies did a great job over there.

The failures on the Security Council though are hard to ignore. We left the Canadians asses hanging in the breeze in Rwanda. Their peacekeepers could have taken control of the country and prevented the genocide. In the end, some of the Belgian peacekeepers working under Canadian command were ambushed and had their heads cut off. And still the members of the Security Council waffled. You'll notice I say members. It wasn't the U.N. that failed but permanent and non-permament members at the time.

The U.N. needs reforms. The U.S. is powerful enough to see through many of those changes. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

You are pissing up a rope. Many of us thought Don sounded reasonable, for about three days and 60 posts of amazingly consistent drivel about how the CIA controls the world.

If you want to be reconed as one of the p_p_DonWAVIANS, you're on the right track.

A_J

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Ish, hey bro, Texas, name-calling, One-World Government...

lavender got tired of being 70/30?

The old gang all had several handles in the past to keep thier respected name pristine.



Let's start a thread about postwar Iraq, seeing as we are presently DOWNtown... Listen to the rythym of a gentle Bosa Nova...

I say war is punative, a result of failed Diplomacy, and those whom most hindered the Diplomatic process should profit the least. To wit, Fawk France! No Contracts!

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Rumor is, France used to post as unregistered also...

 

[Ishmael]

Ish, hey bro, Texas, name-calling, One-World Government...

lavender got tired of being 70/30?

The old gang all had several handles in the past to keep thier respected name pristine.



Let's start a thread about postwar Iraq, seeing as we are presently DOWNtown... Listen to the rythym of a gentle Bosa Nova...

I say war is punative, a result of failed Diplomacy, and those whom most hindered the Diplomatic process should profit the least. To wit, Fawk France! No Contracts!

There's a fine line between cleverness and cowardice. I find it interesting that those that would dictate to the rest of us find the necessitiy to hide behind aliases.

LOL, I think France and many others can forget about their contracts. I'm very interested in which companies, from what countries, sold what items to Iraq in violation of the UN embargo. I think we'll find France, Germany, and Russia with a considerable quantity of egg on their face.

The anti-tank missiles fired at our tanks in the past few days were developed in Russia after the cease fire of '91. Interesting little factoid, what?

Ishmael

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Note the resurrected posters and new names in the arguments this morning.

[/Begin Adam Sandler voice...]
Someone's trying to avoid Crowfest '03 pookie...
[End Adam Sandler voice/]

 

[SleepingWarrior]

Don't forget the Chinese. They are almost as bad as France when it comes to selling weapons and technology to governments that aren't supposed to get them.

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

I do note that the Patriots are now hitting everything they are aimed at (sometimes unfortunately.... ).

This one fact, overlooked now by our press and our left, has not gone unoticed by our enemies and they will soon begin to ratchet up the rhetoric aimed at stopping the deployment of our missile shield...

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Oh believe me, and Ish will back me on this one, I haven't forgotten the Chinese...

This whole thing reads like a Tom Clancy novel.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

This whole thing reads like a Tom Clancy novel.

You sure got that right.

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Not just the Chinese duplicity but the balls on accurate description of what our military does to people in the 21st Century.

 

[Ishmael]

Oh believe me, and Ish will back me on this one, I haven't forgotten the Chinese...

This whole thing reads like a Tom Clancy novel.

I know you wouldn't forget the Chinese. I originally had them in my post, but they are probably going to end up with a lot less egg than the others. And I don't discount the fact that there may be some American companies in the mix as well. Hope they have a LOT of cash on hand.

Tom Clancy novel? Oh yeah.

Ishmael

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

I have no doubt that the screams of hypocracy will sound loud and clear when it comes to light that some few American companies are involved.

But some of us already knew about Lorial (sp?)...

 

[Ishmael]

I have no doubt that the screams of hypocracy will sound loud and clear when it comes to light that some few American companies are involved.

But some of us already knew about Lorial (sp?)...

Be interesting to see who does what about which company, huh?

Yep, I love the cries of "But he did it too" used as justification.

Ishmael

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Bill Clinton's deals will come back to haunt the M'govern/Carter wing of the party. The Pelosies, Dashles, et. all.

The Party of Peace is actually the party of gimme a piece of the action...

My worst post today. I'm taking a break now

 

[Don K Dyck]

You're right. Don. Just got tired of those mealy mouths parroting what they hear. Can't stand the racism and the shit they spew in other posts either.

Hi BiginTexas, that pretty clearly puts your case. It is pleasantly surprising to find a thinking Republican who is not a Redneck wanker.

You seem to have met two of our CIA spindoctors . . . Ishmael has consistently distorted U$ propaganda to have us believe that Dubyah Shrub is a good ole boy who was just a little bit playful when he was a boy. SIN/AJ/Chained seems to have multiple personality syndrome, but generally spins the propaganda to have us beleive that the U$ can do no wrong. I find it extraordinary that so many AmeriKKKans believe the Dubyah Shrub war propaganda without question . . . if it is on CNN or Fox then it must be correct. In Oz we are a little more sceptical of the politicians, especially conservative (Liberal and Notional Party) ones that are currently in power.

<Just a quiet word . . . the abuse really is easy to ignore . . . understandable, but really unnecessary and achieves nothing.>

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

I rest my case.

 

[BiginTexas]

Racism huh? Just another REDWAVE ranter it appears. Pretty much a "full of shit" statement. As far as 'parroting, you haven't done your homework, have you?

Your political affiliation is irrevelant.

Your postings would tend to indicate that you are the last person to pass judgement on anyone engaged in international relations or diplomacy. Particularly when your credentials are restricted to having met some Australians and your name calling rantings on this forum. Rantings made in complete disregard for any of the historical discussions that have taken place.

Please point out where anyone has said that the United Nations will cease to exist, or where I, in particular, has advocated withdrawal? Once again you resort to invective with no substance to back it up.

Your utterances would seem to indicate that you are in favor of a "one world governemn" at the expense of the soveriegnty of the individual nations. As interesting a notion that may seem to you, it does nothing but legitimize the tyranny of the majority. While that fine day may come. It won't be in our lifetime, and it won't be achieved within the current charter and structure of the UN.

Reform of the securtiy council in what form? More efficient perhaps? With what teeth to back it up? I can spend the next week ripping that notion to shreds.

By it's own actions the UN has marginialized itself. It is a diplomatic body, not a governing body. It has never been a governing body and it should not be a governing body, at least not into the foreseeable future.

Again, where has this been stated? You've 'assumed'. And assumed poorly I might add.

There are portions of the UN that have provided valuable assistance. Particularly in the are of humanitarian assistance. I recall no one stating otherwise.

As far as waffling is concerned, that is their right as soveriegn nation states. Once again I remind you that the UN is not a governing body.

The US is not going to see those changes through. It is not in our interest to establish a world governing body, nor would any attempt for us to do so be accetped by the majority of nations that would be required for that to occur. Nor would we, or anyother nation, allow an entity to come into being that would abrogate or supercede our ability to govern ourselves or otherwise act in our own self interest.

Your "baby out with the bath water" statement would seem to indicate that you believe the UN to be some immature form of a "one world government." It isn't. It is not organinzed in such a manner to ever be one. And until there is one world culture and a world where each and every nation is a democracy with the same respect for human rights and individual freedoms will there be a basis for any world organization to fulfill that role. Unless, of course, you are advocating the violent military imposition of these prerequisites.

Ishmael

Blah, balh, balh. Do you even listen to your shit? And son, you have no idea about me or my politics or my service to my country. All I hear is you rag on the U.N. while not bothering to acknowledge that it is the U.S. and other permanent members who keep it esmaculated from responding better to crisis.

This is one of the first times I've heard you even say the U.N. is good for anything, you lousy piece of shit.

You are pretty silent when it comes to your pals who seem to chomp at the bit when you spout off and take it one step further with facist and racist statements. All well and good in a court of law where you can say "I never meant for them to do or say that" but it don't mean shit to me, you stupid motherfucker.

So why don't you crawl back in your hole and go back to fisting your ass, you dumbfuck.

 

[BiginTexas]

You are pissing up a rope. Many of us thought Don sounded reasonable, for about three days and 60 posts of amazingly consistent drivel about how the CIA controls the world.

If you want to be reconed as one of the p_p_DonWAVIANS, you're on the right track.

A_J

You are one sorry, motherfucker. Why can't you say anything more than two sentences? You are one of the stupid ass parrots in the the brown shirt that I've been talking about. Do us all a favor and keep your fucking shit spewing mouth closed. I can't stand to hear its sqeak anymore.

 

[BiginTexas]

Hi BiginTexas, that pretty clearly puts your case. It is pleasantly surprising to find a thinking Republican who is not a Redneck wanker.

You seem to have met two of our CIA spindoctors . . . Ishmael has consistently distorted U$ propaganda to have us believe that Dubyah Shrub is a good ole boy who was just a little bit playful when he was a boy. SIN/AJ/Chained seems to have multiple personality syndrome, but generally spins the propaganda to have us beleive that the U$ can do no wrong. I find it extraordinary that so many AmeriKKKans believe the Dubyah Shrub war propaganda without question . . . if it is on CNN or Fox then it must be correct. In Oz we are a little more sceptical of the politicians, especially conservative (Liberal and Notional Party) ones that are currently in power.

<Just a quiet word . . . the abuse really is easy to ignore . . . understandable, but really unnecessary and achieves nothing.>

Gotta have an open mind in my house. My wife is Jewish and Israeli, born in Canada. Our kids attend both Sunday school and synagogue (I'll let them make up their own minds one way or the other or none of those ways.)

And I am always sceptical of the plan. Lots of my buddies were killed in Lebanon in '83 because of the lack of a plan.

Sure, I want Saddam gone. But our administration did a piss poor job of forging the coalition to do it and making the case for it. Should have sent Powell every freaking day to do his work in other countries like a Secretary of State should be. But they don't trust him in Washington and in the end, they needed him to sell the plan to the U.S. itself.

As for my mouth, my wife says I need it cleaned out every now and then. Not that she or the kids hear it but when assholes like I have seen here spout off, watch it.

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

You are one sorry, motherfucker. Why can't you say anything more than two sentences? You are one of the stupid ass parrots in the the brown shirt that I've been talking about. Do us all a favor and keep your fucking shit spewing mouth closed. I can't stand to hear its sqeak anymore.

I am honored.

I am the board dumbass.

Go away then.

 

[]ooooo(chained)]

Good Gawd someone sure is full of themselves.

Of course you prove you are an anti-Semite. By forcing your children to go to both you deny them their maternal link, the one that makes them uniquely Jews. You should honor your wife, but I bet you treat her like scheiss...

[/Begin Adman Sandler Voice]
Polly can parrot quite a lot poopsie...
[End Adam Sandler Voice/]