The ULTIMATE Masochist

[Krinaia]

I recently saw a tv program about women who marry criminals... as in men on death row or life without parole criminals not petty theifs and addicts that walk the streets. But women who marry men and communte hours to visit these men, write long love letters to them, maybe or maybe don't get conjugal visits.

The point the news program was seeming to make was that these women were escaping reality into a chivalrous relationship reminiscent of that of the King Arthurt tales and the chilvalrous love of knights and ladies. Where no real fucking happens but romance flows. And they can live the romance that they are "saving" a man. "Fixing" him. sometimes. it works out. More often then not, it doesn't.

But... it got me to thinking about some of the parallels betweent he love letter harlequinn romances of these death row widows and some online relationship seekers.... they are the ultimate masochist, looking for this pure love that can exist without the reality of sharing a bathroom and having to rewash his sloppily washed dishes or see the train tracks in his boxers. But ultimately, this kind of romance is bittersweet because it CAN't be realized.

Is this the ulimate emotional masochist love? (outside of loving someone who hates you that is)

 

[Rrrosyn]

Just to clarify, are you referring to habitual online offenders? People who only seek the online and never take it to the next level?

Wondering because I think several of us here have met our current partners online.

 

[h_i_s]

I recently saw a tv program about women who marry criminals... as in men on death row or life without parole criminals not petty theifs and addicts that walk the streets. But women who marry men and communte hours to visit these men, write long love letters to them, maybe or maybe don't get conjugal visits.

The point the news program was seeming to make was that these women were escaping reality into a chivalrous relationship reminiscent of that of the King Arthurt tales and the chilvalrous love of knights and ladies. Where no real fucking happens but romance flows. And they can live the romance that they are "saving" a man. "Fixing" him. sometimes. it works out. More often then not, it doesn't.

But... it got me to thinking about some of the parallels betweent he love letter harlequinn romances of these death row widows and some online relationship seekers.... they are the ultimate masochist, looking for this pure love that can exist without the reality of sharing a bathroom and having to rewash his sloppily washed dishes or see the train tracks in his boxers. But ultimately, this kind of romance is bittersweet because it CAN't be realized.

Is this the ulimate emotional masochist love? (outside of loving someone who hates you that is)

Hmm .. good topic for inspiring thought, SkylineBlue.

i tried the 'online romance' thing for a while, and it didn't take all that long, & only took that one time for me to realize a few things (see below) about ****myself**** .... based on that one experience, in itself.

****myself**** (meaning FOR me ... as i can't possibly know HOW it works for everyone else, and will not claim to know <-- disclaimer for any who may decide that i am dissing or judging whether it can or can not work for others)



1) Romance and relationships when entirely limited to online interactions only, wasn't enough for me.

2) It could & has worked for me as a 'starting point', as long as the 'in person/face to face' meeting follows quickly enough.

3) I really don't feel that i can 'know' a person if the interactions between us are entirely limited to online. They certainly can't really 'know' me either.

4) It's a hell of a lot easier to present oneself as being flawless when interactions are entirely limited to online contact.

5) Person to person interactions involve key aspects of communication which are not always quite apparent, and tend to be lost when interactions are entirely limited to online contact. For one, the body language is missing (perhaps not so for web cam users)during online interactions, as well as inflection/tone of voice etc (perhaps not so for voice chat users)... which can lead one toward having to draw their own conclusions, and in effect draw their own picture, distorted or not, of what the person on the other end of the online connection is really all about.

6) Cyber hugs, cyber kisses, cyber fondlings, gropes, grinds, spanks and all other cyber sexual acts just do not do it for me. Masturbating myself to orgasm while reading another person's description of what they want to do, or plan to do to me is not going to sate my needs for very long. If i WANT to entirely limit my sexual enjoyment to masturbation, i would go watch a good porn video so as to at least be able to use BOTH hands.

7) Being limited to an online only relationship always left me wanting MORE. When the 'more part' was constantly postponed, or never happened, it was probably the same feeling a child would have if they waited and looked forward all year long for a Christmas to arrive only to realize that Santa was a fake, and a big 'let down' who never had any intention of 'delivering the goods' after all.



my Master/Husband and i found each other online. Our face to face, in person meeting took place no more than 24 hours after finding each other online. We both had agreed from the very start that neither of us was looking for an online romance. Prior to living together, we did spend time chatting online at times whenever we had to be apart for a day or two. However, we never did, and never do the cybersex stuff ... and while we have two computers online, we do not communicate through the PC and/or instant messages or email etc ... other than to send articles or files for downloading to each other's computers.

Just my experience ... and what i learned as a result of my own dealings with 'online only' romance. Opinions and experiences of others may differ ... of course.

 

[Recidiva]

There's some truth to this.

I think intimacy has to do with the attainable and the unattainable.

Some people feel that if it can be attained at all, it's not worthy of your effort. So a hopeless romantic is that way because they want something they can't have.

Whether or not it's perfection in an ideal or perfection in what's expected of a "real" life.

We're all going to win some and lose some.

From experience, though, I'm hopelessly romantic, can't help but idealize situations as I soar and then tragedy strikes on any downstroke.

My mind just works that way.

I think they call that hormones. And living.

But people are as surely just as trapped from seeking their perfect white knight or untouched angel as they are when they seek the devil without a soul or the succubus.

 

[Krinaia]

Just to clarify, are you referring to habitual online offenders? People who only seek the online and never take it to the next level?

Wondering because I think several of us here have met our current partners online.

<smile> I myself have been guilty... but yes, I meant online relationships that never go offline and were never intended to. I think online cybering is a good safe place for exploring your sexuality but most the time, I think people outgrow it and want to try things offline.



And I didn't mean to talk just about online users - it was just a parallel I drew... but about chilvarous love wherein no physical or limited secret contact is all that is ever attained. Like with these women marrying inmates. It's a bit masochistic don't you think?

 

[tempsbrat]

Great thread! I agree that it is emotionally massochistic when these women marry these inmates, but it's also safe for a lot of them. They don't mind going out of the norm, but they also get to feel like they are "married" as in committed to someone without ever having to deal with the reality of living with someone.

I fell in love with a woman online without intending to. I really went against all my rules on that one because not only was it online but she was in Australia and I am in America. We finally met 4 months later and she moved to America 3 months later. We were together for 4 years, but are no more. It was also a vanilla relationship and I was dying for D/s. I will never do another vanilla only relationship again.

After we broke up and my heart healed, I went to Alt and wanted to explore my submissive side. I met an incredible Domme on Alt and we have been together online since January and have met r/l. It is hell emotionally, and we are planning on living together once everything can be worked out.

I live in the South, am lesbian and obviously into D/s. It's not easy to find that "one" so online is a good way to look I think, but it isn't an easy road. You've made me think as well about my own massochistic needs and maybe this is part of it, but I want 24/7 and so does my Mistress. God, I can't wait until we get back together r/l which right now is planned for November.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Dunno, I saw a similar programme recently, though the suggestion was not the same as you saw, and it dealt with both males and females who married (or remained monogamous to) inmates on death row or life terms. There was no suggestion it related to masochism or chivalry and a couple of psychs were interviewed as well. Their thoughts were around it was a good way to commit without actually having all the mundane and bothersome details that goes with it, even though there was a lot of physical and emotional commitment as in loyalty, visits, etc.

There was also discussion around the theory of many men and women being attracted to the bad boy/girl figure and feeling they want to have a connection with someone like that, but one which for them is relatively safe.....and that by so doing they play either a martyr, good samaritan, or celebrity role. For some it was a way to give their own life some excitement, some point, at least in their own minds. It also highlighted that many of these people who get into long term relationships with inmates of long standing can and do write books about it or find someone to do it for them and can make a living through that. Apparently the personals sites dedicated to hooking up men and women on the outside with those on the inside are some of the busiest on the net, and the death row and lifers are the ones who are most sought after.

Catalina

 

[Miss Diva]

Apparently the personals sites dedicated to hooking up men and women on the outside with those on the inside are some of the busiest on the net, and the death row and lifers are the ones who are most sought after.

Catalina

Your kidding right?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Your kidding right?

Nope, they said they are flat out keeping up with all the requests to meet inmates for potential long term relationships, and their succes rate of leading to marriage has been high. Apparently, they have created quite a business based on female prisoners, getting the most glamourous shots of them they can, picking the best looking to feature heavily etc. Apparently it is such a hot business they are having trouble keeping up with supplying enough inmates for the interested citizens wanting to fall in love with them.....murderers and rapists rate higher in the popularity stakes than your average bank robber, burgler, and serial killers are ahead of them all.

Catalina

 

[Miss Diva]

Nope, they said they are flat out keeping up with all the requests to meet inmates for potential long term relationships, and their succes rate of leading to marriage has been high. Apparently, they have created quite a business based on female prisoners, getting the most glamourous shots of them they can, picking the best looking to feature heavily etc. Apparently it is such a hot business they are having trouble keeping up with supplying enough inmates for the interested citizens wanting to fall in love with them.....murderers and rapists rate higher in the popularity stakes than your average bank robber, burgler, and serial killers are ahead of them all.

Catalina

So basically, at 42, if I want to marry someone, I should kill first ( or rob a bank or whatever), go to jail and have my photo taken for inmate marriage opportunities...I guess I will stick to being single Thanks Catalina.

 

[Krinaia]

One point the program I saw pointed out that most of these women were on the poor side, a few were single mothers.... so imagine the idiocy of being a single mother or poor or just eeking out an existence THEN pursuing a relationship with someone who doesn't have a job, who sucks up your expendable income to pay for appeals and cigarettes and magazines while you yourself save up to go one or twice a month to sit across a table and hold their hand.


It seems self-destructive. Unhealthy to say the least.

And on some level, isn't masochism about deserving pain, or wanting it because it makes you feel better and if we're honest with ourselves, do we want it because we think we deserve it or asking for it helps soothe the more normal pain inherent in living(sometimes)?

That wasn't very articulate so I hope someone gets my meaning.

 

[catalina_francisco]

And on some level, isn't masochism about deserving pain, or wanting it because it makes you feel better and if we're honest with ourselves, do we want it because we think we deserve it or asking for it helps soothe the more normal pain inherent in living(sometimes)?

That wasn't very articulate so I hope someone gets my meaning.

LOL, not for me unless you look at it from the angle perhaps I have finally been good enough to get what I desire....otherwise I am not on the screwed or skewed misconception I deserve it, or because it soothes the pain of living...I just really, really, really and truly like it, and he likes to give it (hmmm, so do I it seems)!!

Catalina

 

[Krinaia]

LOL, not for me unless you look at it from the angle perhaps I have finally been good enough to get what I desire....otherwise I am not on the screwed or skewed misconception I deserve it, or because it soothes the pain of living...I just really, really, really and truly like it, and he likes to give it (hmmm, so do I it seems)!!

Catalina

Yah... I've been thinking about writing a book just so I could more completley work through my ideas and theories on bdsm... but I think I'll wait until I've had a lil more experience... but you're right. I'm sort of at a point where the pain of sex that I enjoy soothes away the pain of living... say, paying bills... bleh. Why did I have to graduate? <groans>

there has been some good discussion lately and this masochist introspection is always a topic that interests me.

 

[marieR19]

And on some level, isn't masochism about deserving pain, or wanting it because it makes you feel better and if we're honest with ourselves, do we want it because we think we deserve it or asking for it helps soothe the more normal pain inherent in living(sometimes)?

I have this whole big response to this thread, but I can't really gather my thoughts that well right now, so I hope I make sense.
I have never truly believed that I deserve pain or anything, but there's definately a part of me that feels not good enough for those "romantic" relationships. When I was with my ex, and especially when she broke up with me and I wanted soooo badly for sooo long to get back together with her, I was very very masochistic (is that a word). I didn't think of it as such exactly, but I realized awhile ago that I was, 'cause I was mainly one of those people who keep going back and going back even though they get hurt worse each time... Except I wasn't going back to a relationship, I was simply talking to her. And she would do something that would get me so scared and upset that I would cry all night, or say something really mean and hurtful to me that she "didn't really mean", except it would be when she was drunk and with her, that's the only time you know for sure that she's actually being honest. A lot of the stuff that hurt me the worst in my friendship/relationship with her wasn't even things she did/said to me, but how she treated herself. I loved her sooooo much that at one point it was almost an obsession, but she hurt herself physically in so many ways, ways that I've done and do and know how serious they are. And it hurt me sooooooo badly, knowing she was doing that and not being able to do anything to stop her or help her... And she would always "try" not to let me know, but either she would slip and tell me or I would read it in her online diary, and I honestly can't remember how many times I was scared that she was going to die. And yet for two years I kept talking to her, kept going back to being friends with her after half-heartedly trying to do what I needed to do and stop talking to her. I even kept hoping that we'd get back together... I even was going to let her use me as her fuck toy, simply to be near her again, to see her in person again (long-distance thing again). Thankfully that never happened, but there were a lot of nights of talking to her and pathetically telling her that I would do anything for her, that I didn't care what she did or didn't feel for me, that I wanted and needed her that badly.

Wow, I totally didn't mean to write so much! Okay, I'm shutting up now.


Heather

 

[Krinaia]

Sometimes, I feel like talking about our masochistic sides is similar to talking about being an addict of some sort. I had a situation similar to yours that I feel for in my innocence and who had so much self-hate that I couldn't use him to drag me out of own self-issues. I put some of that responsibility on his opinion of me but eventually have admited no one but me can make me feel good about myself and I work on it a lot... but I know what you're talking about.

Anyhow. What you've pointed out with your thoughts/experiences reminds me of another thought I've had. A lot of bdsm lifestylers are overweight - from what I've observed at munches and just talk online. As an overweight person, I also can't help but ask myself if on some level, my liking pain sexually started out as a way to punish myself for being so fat... though it's changed for me. I no longer want to be hurt except in the ways my body enjoys. But the "lifestyle" and belonging to it gives us a secret society where we feel we can belong and be a part of something when we are so ostreized and ignored by the general populace. Saying these things probably isn't going to make me very popular.

 

[tempsbrat]

The weight issue is interesting. One has to also take into account that in America a great number of people are overweight. There is a psychology that some people gain weight subconsiously to insulate themselves from the world. I wonder are more submissives oveweight in general or is it pretty even across the board? My Mistress is a size 4. I am overweight, but that is due more to my accident and getting lazy after and not doing enough to lose it yet. Normally, I am not overweight but have a very athletic build.

The other comment about the desperate need to just be with the other by Heather, touches on the co-dependency that can be very prevelent in intense relationships like D/s. Let's face it, lifestyle D/s people are setting themselves up for co-dependency. The PYL doesnt want the pyl to be free and independent of them on every level, but to always think what the PYL would want them to do. The pyl in turn wants to be cherished, needed, owned in some cases and does not want that freedom in some areas.

It is a careful tightrope we walk to stay mentally healthy and at the same time get out "fix" in the D/s world. I have long felt that there is nothing wrong with desperate love that is built on a bond of trust, honor, and respect. If some want to call that co-dependency, then I'll be co-dependent in a very happy and fulfilled way.

 

[Krinaia]

The weight issue is interesting. One has to also take into account that in America a great number of people are overweight. There is a psychology that some people gain weight subconsiously to insulate themselves from the world. I wonder are more submissives oveweight in general or is it pretty even across the board? My Mistress is a size 4. I am overweight, but that is due more to my accident and getting lazy after and not doing enough to lose it yet. Normally, I am not overweight but have a very athletic build.

The other comment about the desperate need to just be with the other by Heather, touches on the co-dependency that can be very prevelent in intense relationships like D/s. Let's face it, lifestyle D/s people are setting themselves up for co-dependency. The PYL doesnt want the pyl to be free and independent of them on every level, but to always think what the PYL would want them to do. The pyl in turn wants to be cherished, needed, owned in some cases and does not want that freedom in some areas.

It is a careful tightrope we walk to stay mentally healthy and at the same time get out "fix" in the D/s world. I have long felt that there is nothing wrong with desperate love that is built on a bond of trust, honor, and respect. If some want to call that co-dependency, then I'll be co-dependent in a very happy and fulfilled way.

right... the greater number of overweight people in the general populace, the greater likelihood that they will be found in our midst... myself included I'm just trying to perhaps draw parallels.

and bravo on accepting your needs and wants and loving it

speaking of co-dependency reminds me a friend I used to have. She had the great misfortune of watching her family start to fall apart - her mother being forced into AA, her father cheating on her mother, two sisters going hystiercial, one brother facing problems with pot that get him kicked out of college and herself, seemingly the only sane one and felt pressured and no longer able to believe in love or feel she could depend on anyone. It spilled over and destroyed our relationship - she now is very closed off and won't depend on any for love or support. It's like the opposite of being co-dependent. She isn't involved in kink at all - in fact, she seemed rather disgusted at my own acceptance and joy in discovering my kink. In fact, before all this started happening, she had been shy but exploratory and now she's a prude.

Not sure how this relates to the discussion really, just that sexuality is tied in with so many things going on in our lives and our ability to welcome that side of ourself is perhaps... well I'll put it this way. Genetics probably predisposes us to like our sex a particular way but I think environment is pretty responsibile for preparing us to accept or reject our sexuality.

 

[Recidiva]

right... the greater number of overweight people in the general populace, the greater likelihood that they will be found in our midst... myself included I'm just trying to perhaps draw parallels.

and bravo on accepting your needs and wants and loving it

speaking of co-dependency reminds me a friend I used to have. She had the great misfortune of watching her family start to fall apart - her mother being forced into AA, her father cheating on her mother, two sisters going hystiercial, one brother facing problems with pot that get him kicked out of college and herself, seemingly the only sane one and felt pressured and no longer able to believe in love or feel she could depend on anyone. It spilled over and destroyed our relationship - she now is very closed off and won't depend on any for love or support. It's like the opposite of being co-dependent. She isn't involved in kink at all - in fact, she seemed rather disgusted at my own acceptance and joy in discovering my kink. In fact, before all this started happening, she had been shy but exploratory and now she's a prude.

Not sure how this relates to the discussion really, just that sexuality is tied in with so many things going on in our lives and our ability to welcome that side of ourself is perhaps... well I'll put it this way. Genetics probably predisposes us to like our sex a particular way but I think environment is pretty responsibile for preparing us to accept or reject our sexuality.

This was great

I think it has to do with acceptance definitely.

People that love food, that genuinely love curves, and are doing it for the fun of it, they're healthy, they're happy, this is not a problem.

For me what cracks me up is to watch emaciated people who take huge health risks for surgical enhancement and get Botox injections talk about the "obesity plague" as if they had really found the way. I'm suspicious. They've bought something or are selling something I'm not buying.

Some people are very healthy when they're technically overweight. Some people are not.

Really, we need a case by case basis. If you hate who you are, change it. If you're fine who you are, but other people want you to change it, well...they can go Botox themselves

Some people justify their own extremes, say an eating disorder...in order to point at an obese person and say "I don't want to be THAT" But it's just as fair for a overweight person to point back at the insane things people do to suppress their food issues and say "I really don't want to be that either."

 

[tempsbrat]

Excellent points being made. I would also say that the media has a lot to do with insane ideas of what women should strive for. In the 1950's, the famed Monroe was the sex symbol and she was a size 14!

Most models are size 2-4 and have twig bodies that are enhanced with boob jobs and butt implants. My best weight is between 130 and 140 as I am very athletic and look emaciated if any less than that. I like a woman with meat on her bones. Mistress is happy at size 4 and it works for us, but if she got any thinner it would bother me, but I'd still love her regardless.

Oh, I am 5'4 so that gives a better idea of what I am referring to with my best weight. I played tennis and ran cross country throughout high school and college. I'd literally stop traffic with the muscle definition I had and that is where I want my body to get back to, but it's not easy for me as I broke my right leg in 2000 in 27 places with a compound fracture. I have been playing tennis again, but running is not easy for me, and my doctor said I'd never run again, but I proved him wrong. I just can't run like I used to. I did get a bike but have been so damn lazy about using it. That would probably help me a lot if I got my ass out there and just did it and used my total gym and eliptical.

I need to add that I see nothing wrong with enhancing one's body and looks. I plan on getting a boob job

 

[Krinaia]

Or like Kate Moss... they do cocaine so they can look like chic addicts and remain thin and not eat cake and cookies...

Maybe models are masochists too with inner emotional hatred that makes them strive for such unattainable and unreasonable standards of beauty that they do... in the same way that this death row brides strive to escape reality through a perfect chivalrous love.

 

[Recidiva]

I need to add that I see nothing wrong with enhancing one's body and looks. I plan on getting a boob job

I believe there's nothing wrong with it either as long as you're aware of the risks, able to take the consequences and benefits with the same attitude.

That's what life is. I think people who are willing to accept responsibility for it all, good or bad, are the folks that I don't worry about, whatever their choices are.

My only question is always "Are you doing this for you or are you doing this to be something other than you?"

Something other than you never works and there's no end to the changes you can make.

Making choices that make you feel more like yourself, I'm all for it. I'd be right there with you admiring the before and after pictures equally.

But the idea of cutting off my nipple and sewing it back on? Oh dear God no. I like them the way they are. They make me happy the way they are. I just like to find other people that agree and stick with them.

 

[tempsbrat]

I'd definately be doing it for me. I am a size B and have never liked my breasts except when I was nursing and they swelled to a perfect very large C.
I have looked into the various methods and may opt for the underneath method as I have very sensitive nipples and don't want to jeapardize loosing that, though the recovery is more painful....hmmmm that could be mind twisted in me to be enjoyable too

 

[Rrrosyn]

Great topic. Can't think of much I could add to it.

I am one of those people who stops cybering half-way through out of boredom. Never cybered with j. Only a couple erotic emails, that were a part of a longer "lovey dovey" email. I can't imagine not taking it to RL and having him move in. Now having him here is just so natural.

 

[marieR19]

A lot of bdsm lifestylers are overweight

Yeah, I've realized that too, and I have to admit that I'm thankful for it. I'm a bit overweight, and it took me a loooong time to realize that one of the things contributing to my horrible self-image was the fact that 99% of my friends were very skinny. I feel so comfortable knowing that I'm not going to be ridiculed for being an overweight person in the middle of this "skinny" bdsm community or something... I'm normal here. I really like that.


Heather

 

[Krinaia]

I've been thinking... and it's lead me to ask this question, and I hope someone can answer it - even if to the negative.


Are there men out there who want, fantasize about chivalrous love? Love that cannot be consummated - and not just through say actual intercourse. Are there men that think highly of an ideal sort of love wherein you can never live or touch with the object of your desire? Do you consider yourself a masochist regardless or because of this desire. Why?