the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

I think this is a very insightful thing to acknowledge. Sheesh, I am 51 in a matter of days, and I have had my more than fair share of deep and meaningful relationships where I thought I would stay forever. Difference with this one is I know I will stay forever for the very reason you state...even thinking of if I could walk away comes up with a blank, nope, feeling whereas in vanilla days it was always possible if x,y, z happened or changed...now those things may make me unhappy, but do not influence whether I leave or stay. All that being said, I think for many, unless they have felt/experienced it themselves, it is difficult to comprehend and believe.

Catalina

Me too. Though I've referred to it here as "no escape," because that's how it feels to me when it's less than pleasant.

And I want to add too, that though I know I will never leave, I cannot find comfort in the idea that he will never leave. Though he has made the same life-long commitment to me, he retains the power to break it.

I have discovered it makes each moment he chooses to keep me priceless. And allows me to exist fully in my own choices.

 

[Netzach]

whereas in vanilla days it was always possible if x,y, z happened or changed...

That's you. That's not me and it's not everyone in more egalitarian setups. I'm literally not going anywhere. Wild horses and all that, though I don't tell M that repeatedly because I don't want him to let it get to his head too much. If it gets unpleasant I'm not going anywhere, but I like it pleasant and I keep it that way as much as I can.

I'm simply saying that this kind of conclusion while it may be the conclusion of slaves, isn't something unique to slavery. Just look at anyone who's stayed with a spouse through major physical or mental change. If you have a slave orientation it stands to reason that the extra reinforcement of that orientation needs to be touched or tickled into action somehow by your partner for you to feel that "no escape" feeling.

If you don't, whatever your other needs are will usually do the trick. Anyone can understand this perfectly well who has those needs being touched somehow which trigger the feelings of "no matter what", whether by a child or by their Master or even their slave. They just won't get to enlightenment the same way.

I agree with easternsun though on the asymmetry part. It's coldly and blatantly apparent that I can and would ditch on H for any reason or no reason and this is what makes it work so well. If he thought he could keep me simply by wanting, ugh. And if he thought he could leave me of his own accord, no way.

 

[Homburg]

I hate to be all pee in the cereal bowls,

Oh come now, you've said as much. You rather enjoy the pee in the cereal bowl thing.

Oh, wait, you mean metaphorically speaking...

but I'm unsure of the difference between this particular definition of slavery and the experience of your garden variety lover unable to tear himself or herself away, through thick and thin. We're a particularly love-retarded bunch of people, so usually people give up the moment they don't get what they want from the other person, but some people are attuned to acceptance.

I see it as a layer.

BDSM relationships, at least from what I've seen, have a strong feel of impermanence to them. Boredom, competing personalities, specificity of needs and wants, etc all lead to passionate boom and bust situations. This is even more plain in the velcro collar world of online relationships, and almost as bad in distance relationships.

I'm honestly not pissing on those situations, it is just hard reality. Online relationships are ephemeral, and RL gets in the way of distance far too often. Add that to the lovely additional stressors that any BDSM relationship endures (or any non-standard relationship for that matter), and you've a recipe for difficulty. Ladle on a heaping helping of "negotiation" and "contracts" and it gets more complex. The deck is stacked against us.

So when someone who identifies on the s side of the fence gets into a relationship and finds this stupendous permanence, it changes the feel of the whole dynamic. It becomes a layer laid on the rest of D/s, S&M, power exchange, etc.

Is it materially different from the vanilla soul that will never ever leave out of sheer loyalty? Nope. And? It is different from the velcro collar world, and that difference spells out "slavery" for some people.

I don't think it is fair to assume that BB was attempting to define M/s along those lines, nor even making a comment on any relationship but her own. I can understand the comment, but you know as well as I do that my definitions are different from yours which are different from BB's which are different from JMohegan's, etc. For her, that is the layer that says "slave."

Are parents thus slaves to their children?

Wildly different circumstances.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think this is a very insightful thing to acknowledge. Sheesh, I am 51 in a matter of days, and I have had my more than fair share of deep and meaningful relationships where I thought I would stay forever. Difference with this one is I know I will stay forever for the very reason you state...even thinking of if I could walk away comes up with a blank, nope, feeling whereas in vanilla days it was always possible if x,y, z happened or changed...now those things may make me unhappy, but do not influence whether I leave or stay. All that being said, I think for many, unless they have felt/experienced it themselves, it is difficult to comprehend and believe.

Catalina

I feel the same way about my vanilla marriage. I would guess that there is as much likely hood as you walking away from F as there is me walking away from my husband. I'm not even financially dependent on my husband.

He is my soulmate and I do believe that kind of love and committment whether in a M/s relationship or a vanilla marriage is relatively rare. However, it doesn't have to be a M/s relationship to be true.

 

[the captians wench]

I feel the same way about my vanilla marriage. I would guess that there is as much likely hood as you walking away from F as there is me walking away from my husband. I'm not even financially dependent on my husband.

He is my soulmate and I do believe that kind of lobe and committment whether in a M/s relationship or a vanilla marriage is relatively rare. However, it doesn't have to be a M/s relationship to be true.

I have to echo this.

It is my personality to be 200% devoted to my relationships.

I wouldn't leave my husband, he did things that he knew killed me inside in order to get me to leave him, but I couldn't imagine my life with out him, so eventually he left me. The very idea of this possiblity did not exist to me, until it happened.

I feel the same with Jounar. Even though I have dated others while being involved with him, I just can't begin to picture my life with out him. When people ask me if it would be simpler to find some one here, simply the answer is no, I just can't picture a future with out him. Simple. And until the day comes, if it comes, when he tells me to fuck off and move on, I'll still be devoted to him and guided by his hand.

Ironically enough, the few times I did leave a relationship were power exchange based. Two of the three times I can recall, I didn't feel like the world would end if I left this person. The third one, well they are still in my life, just in a different way, and I can't imagine them not being in my life in some form.

Devotion, absolute "I will die for you" devotion is not simply a slave thing. Nor is it exclusively a BDSM thing, or Alt lifestyle thing. Devotion of that kind can happen and does exist in many realms. But like es said, it seems very rare these days.

 

[gypsy*seer]

I have to echo this.

It is my personality to be 200% devoted to my relationships.

I wouldn't leave my husband, he did things that he knew killed me inside in order to get me to leave him, but I couldn't imagine my life with out him, so eventually he left me. The very idea of this possiblity did not exist to me, until it happened.

I feel the same with Jounar. Even though I have dated others while being involved with him, I just can't begin to picture my life with out him. When people ask me if it would be simpler to find some one here, simply the answer is no, I just can't picture a future with out him. Simple. And until the day comes, if it comes, when he tells me to fuck off and move on, I'll still be devoted to him and guided by his hand.

Ironically enough, the few times I did leave a relationship were power exchange based. Two of the three times I can recall, I didn't feel like the world would end if I left this person. The third one, well they are still in my life, just in a different way, and I can't imagine them not being in my life in some form.

Devotion, absolute "I will die for you" devotion is not simply a slave thing. Nor is it exclusively a BDSM thing, or Alt lifestyle thing. Devotion of that kind can happen and does exist in many realms. But like es said, it seems very rare these days.

Very nicely put, wenchie...

 

[catalina_francisco]

I feel the same way about my vanilla marriage. I would guess that there is as much likely hood as you walking away from F as there is me walking away from my husband. I'm not even financially dependent on my husband.

He is my soulmate and I do believe that kind of lobe and committment whether in a M/s relationship or a vanilla marriage is relatively rare. However, it doesn't have to be a M/s relationship to be true.

While I agree in part, it is not about choice and that is what I am referring to more so than a depth of love, even though this can be an element. It is difficult to explain, but it is not about being soul mates, or feeling this is the only person you want to be with, it is about accepting and knowing you do not have a choice, nor can you imagine how you could even feel you could make that choice. What makes it more confusing for some is they assume I am then saying I could not survive if something happened to him...I know for a fact I could as I had a productive and independent life before we met, but that doesn't play a part when talking about making choices and/or walking away from the relationship we have committed to. So while I also gave 200% to relationships I was in when vanilla, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about here.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's you. That's not me and it's not everyone in more egalitarian setups. I'm literally not going anywhere. Wild horses and all that, though I don't tell M that repeatedly because I don't want him to let it get to his head too much. If it gets unpleasant I'm not going anywhere, but I like it pleasant and I keep it that way as much as I can.

I'm simply saying that this kind of conclusion while it may be the conclusion of slaves, isn't something unique to slavery. Just look at anyone who's stayed with a spouse through major physical or mental change. If you have a slave orientation it stands to reason that the extra reinforcement of that orientation needs to be touched or tickled into action somehow by your partner for you to feel that "no escape" feeling.

If you don't, whatever your other needs are will usually do the trick. Anyone can understand this perfectly well who has those needs being touched somehow which trigger the feelings of "no matter what", whether by a child or by their Master or even their slave. They just won't get to enlightenment the same way.

I agree with easternsun though on the asymmetry part. It's coldly and blatantly apparent that I can and would ditch on H for any reason or no reason and this is what makes it work so well. If he thought he could keep me simply by wanting, ugh. And if he thought he could leave me of his own accord, no way.

I know N, and that is what I like about diversity. We all have our own particular feelings and state of being, which is good, but also can make it difficult at times when trying to understand something we have no experience or at that point in time, inclination for, and just as difficult to put it into words which can convey that intangible reality.

Catalina

 

[eastern sun]

So what happens when a slave loses trust in her master?

She doesn't stop being a slave.

 

[eastern sun]

I need to learn how to trust again.

(Cause it's not just him.)

It started with me not trusting myself.

And learning to trust will have to start with me, too.

**************************************

When I feel the way I do now, like I'm standing on the edge of an irreversible fall, I subject every moment to the knives of my analytical mind. And under its scrutiny, I empty each moment of warmth and love, and end up with a series of stupid blunders that have brought me to this barren and exhausted cliff.

When I trust enough to "let go and let God," though I'm still stumbling around on these clay feet at the edge of a cliff, I find that every moment is suffused with an inexpressible presence that is warm and and open and full of love. And all those difficult and awkward and even tragic circumstances are just the stuff of this human life.

I'd like to bring that warmth back into my life. And it has nothing to do with him.

If the warmth is in me, it is also in him. If it is not in me, it is not in him either.

 

[Homburg]

I need to learn how to trust again.

(Cause it's not just him.)

It started with me not trusting myself.

And learning to trust will have to start with me, too.

This seems like a core realisation. If you don't trust yourself, you won't trust anyone.

 

[eastern sun]

This seems like a core realisation. If you don't trust yourself, you won't trust anyone.

I know I turned to this type of relationship in part because I wanted to find strength outside myself.

I think I've said it before. . . though I'd still like it to be true . . .

Masters can't rescue us from ourselves.

Nor protect us from themselves.

 

[Homburg]

I know I turned to this type of relationship in part because I wanted to find strength outside myself.

I think I've said it before. . . though I'd still like it to be true . . .

Masters can't rescue us from ourselves.

Nor protect us from themselves.

The first person that I strive to protect those I love from is myself. It has been a rule in my life for as long as I can remember.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I know I turned to this type of relationship in part because I wanted to find strength outside myself.

I think I've said it before. . . though I'd still like it to be true . . .

Masters can't rescue us from ourselves.

Nor protect us from themselves.

i don't know about that. mine did, and continues to do so everyday. i fear what would happen if he ever dropped the ball there.

 

[eastern sun]

i don't know about that. mine did, and continues to do so everyday. i fear what would happen if he ever dropped the ball there.

Me, too. That's my problem.

And I don't mean to imply that I'm being hurt. Just that I'm frightened.

Have you never felt unsafe in your relationship? Or doubted his actions? Or your own?

I'd be much more interested in how you found your way back to a feeling of security (or reconciled yourself to the insecurity) than to imagine that you never felt distrust in all the time you've been together.

 

[eastern sun]

The first person that I strive to protect those I love from is myself. It has been a rule in my life for as long as I can remember.

I think your intentions are good and right, Homburg. And the women and children in your care will benefit from them.

But what about the bits that you aren't aware of . . . . yet. Or don't accept.

Aren't we all a bit blind to some of our own characteristics?


I know that I'll find my way back. I just don't want to pretend that I don't get frightened sometimes. Especially because I choose to give him such power.

In most of my relationships with people, I retain power as a buffer.

With him, that comfort zone is missing.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Me, too. That's my problem.

And I don't mean to imply that I'm being hurt. Just that I'm frightened.

Have you never felt unsafe in your relationship? Or doubted his actions? Or your own?

I'd be much more interested in how you found your way back to a feeling of security (or reconciled yourself to the insecurity) than to imagine that you never felt distrust in all the time you've been together.

heck yes i've felt unsafe. heck yes i've doubted his actions at times. i've feared for my own personal physical well-being, mental health, and future. i will always have these fears, it is just the reality of our relationship. He is always going to push that edge, he is always going to go there.

however, a very long time ago i finally grew to accept this fear as a healthy and good thing within our relationship. it does not make me want to run from him, to the contrary, it only draws me in tighter.

this man truly did come into my life as a savior, and i will forever be grateful for that. He gave me the opportunity to live a fulfilling and content life...he gave me the opportunity to know peace. and of course, he gave me love. not just any old love but an all-consuming and monstrous deep down in the belly epic love that i never thought a person like me could ever know or deserve. this is home now, the only home for me...with him, belonging to him, forever.

trust? i'm not sure how i feel about that word. of course i have trust in my Master. i trust that he will never intentionally harm me when it is not merited. the thing is, sometimes it's merited.

but i fear myself far more than i fear my Master. i fear the darkness and pain of my depression which has been completely debilitating at times, and which has driven me into psychosis at others. i fear the martyr in me, who only wants to suffer and suffer and suffer endlessly. He protects me from those beasts within. but he does not protect me from himself, because i am his...to do with as he wills. as HE wills. not i. does that make sense?

it's like...i have no right to harm myself, to place myself at risk, to take my life...because it is his life and only he holds dominion over it. however he has free reign to do all of this, because i am his, and that is just how it works. that's a comfort for me.

 

[myinnerslut]

it's like...i have no right to harm myself, to place myself at risk, to take my life...because it is his life and only he holds dominion over it.

this is very similiar to the attitude i clung to when fighting an eating disorder last summer. it was a relapse stemming back to when i was 15. they happen every now and then.

i would no sooner purposefully hurt myself then i would smash his car or fling paint on his wardrobe. i am his, and it is not my right to decide to destroy something he values.

 

[eastern sun]

heck yes i've felt unsafe. heck yes i've doubted his actions at times. i've feared for my own personal physical well-being, mental health, and future. i will always have these fears, it is just the reality of our relationship. He is always going to push that edge, he is always going to go there.

however, a very long time ago i finally grew to accept this fear as a healthy and good thing within our relationship. it does not make me want to run from him, to the contrary, it only draws me in tighter.

this man truly did come into my life as a savior, and i will forever be grateful for that. He gave me the opportunity to live a fulfilling and content life...he gave me the opportunity to know peace. and of course, he gave me love. not just any old love but an all-consuming and monstrous deep down in the belly epic love that i never thought a person like me could ever know or deserve. this is home now, the only home for me...with him, belonging to him, forever.

trust? i'm not sure how i feel about that word. of course i have trust in my Master. i trust that he will never intentionally harm me when it is not merited. the thing is, sometimes it's merited.

but i fear myself far more than i fear my Master. i fear the darkness and pain of my depression which has been completely debilitating at times, and which has driven me into psychosis at others. i fear the martyr in me, who only wants to suffer and suffer and suffer endlessly. He protects me from those beasts within. but he does not protect me from himself, because i am his...to do with as he wills. as HE wills. not i. does that make sense?

it's like...i have no right to harm myself, to place myself at risk, to take my life...because it is his life and only he holds dominion over it. however he has free reign to do all of this, because i am his, and that is just how it works. that's a comfort for me.

Thank you, OSG. I do understand your perspective. I haven't felt such a dark depression, but I have been afraid of myself before. And I am now, too.

The difference I feel today, and the reason why my trust is shaken, is that I'm afraid he'll unleash my inner beasts on myself. Inadvertently. In the pursuit of his interests. I don't actually trust him to save me from myself.

(And, you know, as soon as I wrote that, I know that he would. Just not before I've been mangled.)

I came to this with a hope that I'd ultimately free myself from fear. But I don't think that's it at all. It's just the fear of fear that might be liberated.

I'm curious and sincere. Imagine for a moment that I'm your frightened child. How would you explain to me that this fear is healthy and good?

 

[eastern sun]

this is very similiar to the attitude i clung to when fighting an eating disorder last summer. it was a relapse stemming back to when i was 15. they happen every now and then.

i would no sooner purposefully hurt myself then i would smash his car or fling paint on his wardrobe. i am his, and it is not my right to decide to destroy something he values.

I understand this perspective, too, MIS. I do take better care of myself when I'm doing it for someone else.

But I also watch him ruin his car. And I watch him destroy his clothes. And both his car and his clothes are in disrepair.

I am more valuable than either his car and his clothes. By any perspective.

He may have the right to run me into the ground. And he may do it.

But I also have the ability, and the responsibility, to keep myself running. And in good repair.

It's a challenge to know where the boundaries lie sometimes.

 

[Homburg]

I think your intentions are good and right, Homburg. And the women and children in your care will benefit from them.

But what about the bits that you aren't aware of . . . . yet. Or don't accept.

Aren't we all a bit blind to some of our own characteristics?

If I am unaware of it, I'm unaware of it. Why fret it? I'm not going to sit and worry myself to death because I *might* have cancer and don't know it. Why then should I worry myself to death over personality aberrance that I am likewise unaware of and have no reason to expect?

I worry enough about the aberrance that I am aware of, and take precautions to prevent it from showing in uncontrolled ways. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I don't do things that I know will compromise my self-control. I don't take chances like that. I've seen what happens when I do. I don't ever want to be in that situation again.

I came to this with a hope that I'd ultimately free myself from fear. But I don't think that's it at all. It's just the fear of fear that might be liberated.

Goodness, why would you want to not feel fear? Think of that story you told about sex in the train station where you might be discovered any moment. Fear is a significant portion of what made that moment so very alive.

Fear can cripple, but it also part of what makes life so damned worthwhile.

But I also watch him ruin his car. And I watch him destroy his clothes. And both his car and his clothes are in disrepair.

Some people are really entropic.

I am more valuable than either his car and his clothes. By any perspective.

He may have the right to run me into the ground. And he may do it.

But I also have the ability, and the responsibility, to keep myself running. And in good repair.

It's a challenge to know where the boundaries lie sometimes.

Hrm, it's a quandary. You have a responsibility to take care of his property. This means you must take care of yourself. So if he is running into the ground, you have to do what maintenance you can to keep yourself running smoothly.

 

[eastern sun]

If I am unaware of it, I'm unaware of it. Why fret it? I'm not going to sit and worry myself to death because I *might* have cancer and don't know it. Why then should I worry myself to death over personality aberrance that I am likewise unaware of and have no reason to expect?

I worry enough about the aberrance that I am aware of, and take precautions to prevent it from showing in uncontrolled ways. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I don't do things that I know will compromise my self-control. I don't take chances like that. I've seen what happens when I do. I don't ever want to be in that situation again.



Goodness, why would you want to not feel fear? Think of that story you told about sex in the train station where you might be discovered any moment. Fear is a significant portion of what made that moment so very alive.

Fear can cripple, but it also part of what makes life so damned worthwhile.



Some people are really entropic.



Hrm, it's a quandary. You have a responsibility to take care of his property. This means you must take care of yourself. So if he is running into the ground, you have to do what maintenance you can to keep yourself running smoothly.

Thank you, Homburg. Especially for introducing me to the idea of entropic people. This could save me a lot of heartache.

There is a significant difference though between the fear I feel in sexual situations - a fear that is deeply satisfying - and the fear that I feel when I have to face the school psychologist - a fear that makes me want to run away and hide.

It's the latter I'd like to be free of.

 

[eastern sun]

I want my mommy.

 

[Homburg]

Thank you, Homburg. Especially for introducing me to the idea of entropic people. This could save me a lot of heartache.

It is just one of those things. Some people break things, wear them out. One of my best friends is like this. His cars, clothes, computer, house, etc are all in a constant state of slow destruction.

There is a significant difference though between the fear I feel in sexual situations - a fear that is deeply satisfying - and the fear that I feel when I have to face the school psychologist - a fear that makes me want to run away and hide.

It's the latter I'd like to be free of.

Eh, they're still the same animal. One is just contextualised to the point where you like. It goes back to the good-pain/bad-pain discussion commonly had with masochists. There is good fear, and there is bad fear, but both are still fear. I have often told masochists to use their existing pain-processing skills to handle bad pain. It's never met with enthusiasm, but it makes sense. Perhaps it is useful to look at the same fear-processing mechanisms and ability used to handle good fear, and apply it to bad fear.

Years and years ago, I took martial arts, specifically a grappling style. I was okay at it, but not great. One day, I got into the groove, relaxed, and was suddenly vastly better on the ground. Instead of struggling with my opponent's every move, I relaxed, and used whatever energy I was given to my advantage. A month or so later, I was driving home from MA class, and going across a very long bridge. It was hurricane season, and a solid storm had kicked up. I was driving a light 4x4, and it was raised a little, so it was really catching the crosswinds on the bridge. I was concerned before I hit the bridge, but once on it, I instinctively relaxed. Just like when I was on the mat. I used the energy I was given, and handled it smoothly, instead of trying to fight every gust.

While this anecdote may be looked at as "relax and use the energy you're given" it is more useful, in this case, to look at it differently. The core advice I'm offering is that you can take a skill learned from some obtuse place, and apply it somewhere totally unconventional, to sometimes great success. Fear is just another form of biochemical distress. Handle it as such. You've already got the capacity.

 

[Homburg]

this is very similiar to the attitude i clung to when fighting an eating disorder last summer. it was a relapse stemming back to when i was 15. they happen every now and then.

i would no sooner purposefully hurt myself then i would smash his car or fling paint on his wardrobe. i am his, and it is not my right to decide to destroy something he values.

As an aside, I didn't see it as so much of a struggle. It frightened you, to be sure, and it was serious. But you are so much stronger than you realise, so much stronger than the eating disorder.

And the way you handled it made me so proud.