The future is dense, walkable cities.

[Fuzzy1975]

Some of the motor heads saw the light when they discovered the superior performance characteristics of EVs.

Nothing like the instant torque of a DC motor!!!

 

[AlexBailey]

I know what it is, what I don't understand is what Paul was trying to say about it.( the portion I put in bold in his post is where my question lies)

I understand what Paul is saying perfectly, probably because I understand the control levels of micro-grid systems - that’s why I’m answering.

Having a grid as a whole broken into sub-sets (autonomous grid islands) of micro-grids gives managers the ability to break the grid into smaller finite sections - meaning smaller groups which can be limited to fewer and smaller subsets.

With the old grid design, a fault in one section can cascade to other sections, causing shutdowns in areas that don’t have faults.

Having more points of control and the ability to quickly break off other finite sections (limited areas) provides better reliability.



Ideally each micro-grid section would have production, storage, and distribution, but since we still use many large power production facilities, that power is distributed to different subsystems. Ever notice electrical substations? Those are where high voltage long distance transmission lines come into an area and the power is then transformed to lower voltage for distribution to neighborhoods and business districts.

Smart mini-grid design can make it so any one neighborhood can be fed from multiple distribution sources so if there is a fault in transmission lines or at a centralized source the mini-grids can use alternative sources, possibly disconnecting from all external sources and become stand-alone “islands.”

So yeah, what Paul said makes perfect sense.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I understand what Paul is saying perfectly, probably because I understand the control levels of micro-grid systems - that’s why I’m answering

I beg to differ, but if what you are saying Paul is saying you're incorrect.

Having a grid as a whole broken into sub-sets (autonomous grid islands) of micro-grids gives managers the ability to break the grid into smaller finite sections - meaning smaller groups which can be limited to fewer and smaller subsets.

You can't break the grid into finite sections. What you can do is have a closed system, which is not connected to the grid, except for demand loads through a substation. This will work in a residential area, but if there is to be a tie in to large industrial users, then the phasing and switching equipment needs to be isolated between users, which leads to doubling ( or more) of the equipment in the substations. Not to mention protection problems of the downstream home generators.

With the old grid design, a fault in one section can cascade to other sections, causing shutdowns in areas that don’t have faults.

Having more points of control and the ability to quickly break off other finite sections (limited areas) provides better reliability.

This only applies if the loads are of a residential or very small commercial scale. Any major load, with a "fast" demand rate will cause the voltage to drop and switch gear to open, or risk the loss of the source generation. Which in this case I assume you mean a neighbourhood supply from self RE generation as you outline below.

Ideally each micro-grid section would have production, storage, and distribution, but since we still use many large power production facilities, that power is distributed to different subsystems. Ever notice electrical substations? Those are where high voltage long distance transmission lines come into an area and the power is then transformed to lower voltage for distribution to neighborhoods and business districts.

As I mention above, they have to be isolated, when you are dealing with single phase generation, supply is simple. You want 240 from 120, you tap a transformer at 90 degrees on the phase and voila the 120 V doubles to be 240 V. But it is still single phase.

When you want real "power", the type that does the work, this no longer works and you need to operate a 3 phase system, which will not tie into a RE home generated system. Also 3 phase offers up an efficiency level, which means all the equipment can be made for much less cost. These system are used in the vast majority of electrical customers at the comercial level and industrial.

Smart mini-grid design can make it so any one neighborhood can be fed from multiple distribution sources so if there is a fault in transmission lines or at a centralized source the mini-grids can use alternative sources, possibly disconnecting from all external sources and become stand-alone “islands.”

All your describing here currently exists, there are two types of circuits. Radial and Looped ( this is for distribution not transmission). Most muncipal system use looped since you can isolate faults and redirect the power.

So yeah, what Paul said makes perfect sense.

Paul said "distribution and "finite control" ( what ever that is supposed to mean). Neither of which has anything to do with "micro grids"

Which is why I asked the question....

A micro grid is a closed looped system design to use up the energy produced by the connected within that grid, and have a tie in for "demand power" from the main grid as needed to make up for the shortfalls when the sun isn't shining the winds not blowing, and the storage is low.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Not ban them. Just redesign streets to prioritize other modes of transit. Convert car lanes into bus and bike lanes. Widen the sidewalks. Eliminate free public parking.

Many cities tried putting in parking meters and it almost killed their downtown shopping.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Fair point,but how often do you actually make the trip?

Enough times that I prefer not to sit and wait for my car to charge when I can fuel, piss and get a snack and be back on the road in 10 minutes.

So am I.

So we agree on Hydrogen? How did that happen.

Oil's not going anywhere for i'd say 100 years, maybe longer, until it runs out even. The point isn't to end the use of petroleum. It's to grab the low hanging fruit, which is really personal vehicles and where possible public transportation.

And as I say previously as soon as they can match the mileage my Subaru gets per tank I may take a look.

Then I won't hear you bitching about how much it costs to fill up, right?

I don't complain about gas prices because just like the weather I can't do anything about it. I will predict that gas prices will drop by about a gallon sometime in October.

I make bio-diesel for my farm tractor and backhoe. Diesel engines were designed to run on peanut oil. Ethanol is a waste of time, and effort IMHO. Lower fuel mileage, harder on the fuel system and it needs subsidies still to keep the cost down.

Ethanol has worked as a replacement in oil poor countries. It does need special hoses and fittings that are alcohol resistant. If subsidies are an issue then solar and windmills need to go since they are both heavily subsidized.

 

[AlexBailey]

I beg to differ, but if what you are saying Paul is saying you're incorrect.

You can't break the grid into finite sections. What you can do is have a closed system, which is not connected to the grid, except for demand loads through a substation. This will work in a residential area, but if there is to be a tie in to large industrial users, then the phasing and switching equipment needs to be isolated between users, which leads to doubling ( or more) of the equipment in the substations. Not to mention protection problems of the downstream home generators.

This only applies if the loads are of a residential or very small commercial scale. Any major load, with a "fast" demand rate will cause the voltage to drop and switch gear to open, or risk the loss of the source generation. Which in this case I assume you mean a neighbourhood supply from self RE generation as you outline below.

As I mention above, they have to be isolated, when you are dealing with single phase generation, supply is simple. You want 240 from 120, you tap a transformer at 90 degrees on the phase and voila the 120 V doubles to be 240 V. But it is still single phase.

When you want real "power", the type that does the work, this no longer works and you need to operate a 3 phase system, which will not tie into a RE home generated system. Also 3 phase offers up an efficiency level, which means all the equipment can be made for much less cost. These system are used in the vast majority of electrical customers at the comercial level and industrial.

All your describing here currently exists, there are two types of circuits. Radial and Looped ( this is for distribution not transmission). Most muncipal system use looped since you can isolate faults and redirect the power.



Paul said "distribution and "finite control" ( what ever that is supposed to mean). Neither of which has anything to do with "micro grids"

Which is why I asked the question....

A micro grid is a closed looped system design to use up the energy produced by the connected within that grid, and have a tie in for "demand power" from the main grid as needed to make up for the shortfalls when the sun isn't shining the winds not blowing, and the storage is low.

Other than adding the part about the difference between three phase systems and single phase you pretty much went over a lot of what I just did but I was taking what Paul said in a mathematical sense. See point finite.


A big part we left out is smart load management. Being able to shut down large loads when there is not enough supply or when there is a fault is a necessity. There are all sorts of problems and complications that come about when something happens, but there is great benefit to figuring it out.

I’ve set up business with limited backup resources, being strategic so they can keep operating in some capacity just off of a small scaled backup system.

Even most large manufacturers can still be productive with limited available electricity. Sure it can be a problem but not as bad as a complete blackout.

When subways or trains have some battery capacity they can benefit from regenerative braking and keeping surges off of their systems in normal use, then they have limited capacity available to make it to the next station in emergencies etc…

The tech exists. Smart meters are only the beginning…

 

[Paul_Chance]

Let me try this explanation, see if it helps.

Envision "The Grid" as a chess board, a selection of 8 x 8 subsections. The power to these subsections is currently controlled by the grid operator. They can turn the power on or off to a specific square. These squares are a specific size (and unlike the uniform chess squares, they're am organic variety of shapes and sizes.

Then, the move (gradually) to a micro-grid approach, where they take each square and make it a micro-version of the original chess board. Now, you have each of the original 64 squares, each contains 64 squares. Each of these new squares can be turned on or off, power can be routed to them via multiple paths.

Where as in the traditional grid (64 squares) you're compelled to effect a large number of customers when their is an adverse event effecting a single square. In the microgrid design you can radically minimize the impact of adverse events because it allows greater precision in response to adverse events.

In California, as in other states, a lot of what is driving them to this approach has been unreliability of the larger grid, combined with liability for grid wide events.

Make sense? As a concept, it's a good one.

Rather than 64 points of control, your would then have 64x64 points of control when it is completed. The increased points of control also allows the grid operator to route power into a given area via multiple routes. The further distribution, especially in terms of urban settings, means fewer customers resting on a single point of failure.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Going back to the original subject, that is really all the 15 minute city concept is.

Urban planners will go from squares of a certain size (assuming transportation by car), to squares of a smaller size (assuming/enabling transportation by foot). The concept that, rather than have your commercial zone large and spaced out to accommodate people driving to work and to get goods and services, they'll bring the commercial spaces in closer, so people can walk to them or connect easier and faster on public transit. It's an admirable goal for urban planning.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Going back to the original subject, that is really all the 15 minute city concept is.

Urban planners will go from squares of a certain size (assuming transportation by car), to squares of a smaller size (assuming/enabling transportation by foot). The concept that, rather than have your commercial zone large and spaced out to accommodate people driving to work and to get goods and services, they'll bring the commercial spaces in closer, so people can walk to them or connect easier and faster on public transit. It's an admirable goal for urban planning.

And a life I have zero interest in living. My idea of Hell is city living and packing everything tighter together just makes that Hell even worse. I prefer to stay out of cities unless absolutely necessary.

 

[coati]

Capitalism isn't going anywhere, so the nature of the beast will continue in a greener future. The life or death of the concept of 15 minute city is going to depend entirely on the invisible hand of capitalism.

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd. It's continuing to cause the destruction of our last remaining wild areas and sacred Native lands.

If the sprawling cancer that has overtaken southern California can be treated by dramatically reducing per capita energy consumption, great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that private corporations pumping even more juice from other states into that sprawl is the work of a divinely inspired invisible hand.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd. It's continuing to cause the destruction of our last remaining wild areas and sacred Native lands.

If the sprawling cancer that has overtaken southern California can be treated by dramatically reducing per capita energy consumption, great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that private corporations pumping even more juice from other states into that sprawl is the work of a divinely inspired invisible hand.

I look at urbanization as blight. People and buildings packed together. Gangs, homelessness, crime, filth, pollution, make that life a definite NO for me.

California created its own mess and more urbanization is not the solution. California will continue to be an energy use sink hole because of the lifestyle that so many live there.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Some of this thread looks like the bargaining stage of grief. We can still have most of we want, but we need more electric cars, micro grids, alternative energy, etc.

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

 

[coati]

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

You must be talking about a very long time-horizon.

In the sunny southwestern portion of the USA, rural and suburban buildings will be able to support enough photovoltaic panels to fuel cars, and battery technology will continue to change and improve. By 2040, electric cars will be the norm for rural and suburban people, and gas powered vehicles will be in the expensive minority. Grid electricity will be much more expensive, so cities will need much more mass transit.

I've been to a number of cities in the USA and Europe where I drove my car to a mass transit station on the outskirts, parked, and then used mass transit for all my city business. I do not see the suburbs disappearing in the next century unless large-scale nuclear war breaks out or a large meteor hits the earth.

 

[RandyRebecca]

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd.

A lot of capitalists rely on, or relied on, corporate welfare, i.e. subsidies from taxpayers. It's absurd how so many talk like it's all down to the market. The market said in 2008 that they should go bust. Capitalism failed, and needed federal taxpayer bailouts to survive. The question is, why not nationalize those companies and cut out the super rich capitalists who failed us all? Why are they being bailed out instead?

 

[Lazaran]

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

The wealth / value and quality of life in the suburbs probably precludes your scenario materializing.

And if it does get to that point, (the abandonment of the suburbs) then it’s likely that civilization will have collapsed, with the survivors going even more rural.

There won’t be mass transit or power grids, and major urban centers will look like a scene from “Escape from New York”.

I personally envision a future with far more utilitarian personal electric vehicles that lack all the bells and whistles. (I wonder how much a totally stripped down, mass produced, electric “errand mobile” would cost?)

A super-efficient low-performance personal electric vehicle for necessity runs would be fairly optimal. Sharing of those vehicles would be truly optimal; even though sharing comes with its own set of problems,

That ^ future of “personal transportation” is sustainable imho.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

You must be talking about a very long time-horizon.

In the sunny southwestern portion of the USA, rural and suburban buildings will be able to support enough photovoltaic panels to fuel cars, and battery technology will continue to change and improve. By 2040, electric cars will be the norm for rural and suburban people, and gas powered vehicles will be in the expensive minority. Grid electricity will be much more expensive, so cities will need much more mass transit.

I've been to a number of cities in the USA and Europe where I drove my car to a mass transit station on the outskirts, parked, and then used mass transit for all my city business. I do not see the suburbs disappearing in the next century unless large-scale nuclear war breaks out or a large meteor hits the earth.

I agree with this vision for a possible future. The suburbs will hang on for a while as the city cores get denser and more walkable. Private cars will be luxuries rather than the necessities they are now. Maybe electric will eventually win out over gasoline, but that's for the free market to decide. Public policy should focus on providing transit for the masses.

 

[coati]

I look at urbanization as blight. People and buildings packed together. Gangs, homelessness, crime, filth, pollution, make that life a definite NO for me.

You sound pretty insular. Too much of the right-wing talking points and not enough enjoyment of the culture and vibrancy that many of our cities have to offer.

 

[AlexBailey]

How is urban medical care these days?

What are your plans when you get old?

 

[TrailerHitch]

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

Nonsense. The desire to live in apartments packed together likes chickens in multi-story egg factories takes a special type of submissive obedience that is culturally un-American. This country was founded, and settled, by people wanting their own piece of land and home. Not essentially prison cells that they hold the key to.

 

[coati]

I agree with this vision for a possible future. The suburbs will hang on for a while as the city cores get denser and more walkable. Private cars will be luxuries rather than the necessities they are now. Maybe electric will eventually win out over gasoline, but that's for the free market to decide. Public policy should focus on providing transit for the masses.

We've already turned the corner and are heading away from the gasoline era. By 2040, there will be far fewer gasoline stations. Why the hell would consumers continue to pay for that when they can harvest thousands of watts on a typical rooftop? My sunbelt state is already scrambling to figure out how to fund road maintenance because of the reductions in gas tax revenue. They want to start maintaining roads with car registration and sale fees.

There is a whole changing world happening outside of the cities. I can't raise enough hay for transportation horses, but I can affordably set up a solar array. Besides, horses don't provide air conditioning during the summer.

The right-wing Luddites on Lit are clinging to the past, as usual. Don't pay any attention to them-- look at what the major vehicle manufacturers are already doing in the USA, China, and Europe.

 

[coati]

In my area in the eastern woodlands, the climate is too cloudy for solar. Some modestly sized windmills may be worth building in some locations, where there are fewer trees. But home heating can be solved with a woodburning stove and an ax. Some hydro projects could be built, but damming the rivers would be a mistake. We will need the rivers as water roads when we can't afford so much road maintenance, and don't have the oil to make so much blacktop.

Most cities and a lot of other areas will be very grid-dependent. That's why we need to take the routing decisions away from the corporate scam artists and implement smarter grid planning.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Nonsense. The desire to live in apartments packed together likes chickens in multi-story egg factories takes a special type of submissive obedience that is culturally un-American. This country was founded, and settled, by people wanting their own piece of land and home. Not essentially prison cells that they hold the key to.

Most Americans already live in big cities. The city of Los Angeles alone has 7x the population of the entire state of Wyoming.

 

[TrailerHitch]

You sound pretty insular. Too much of the right-wing talking points and not enough enjoyment of the culture and vibrancy that many of our cities have to offer.

Oh I used to love to visit places like Chicago for the Field Museum, the Science and Industry Museum, the Shed Aquarium, the Planetarium, Art Institute, Navy Pier, and Wrigley Field. Washington DC is another amazing place with far too many place of interest to mention. As well as many other cities across the country. The attractions are still there but all those cities are in decline and crime is up. I've been there, seen what I wanted to see, and have no need to go back and certainly would not want to live there.

I don't try to encourage city dwellers to move to the country, in fact we really don't want you here, because most often you bring the negative elements of city life when you come. Its funny how hard you city dwellers try to convince people like me that I should embrace city life. Who are you really trying to convince how great it is me or yourself?

 

[TrailerHitch]

We've already turned the corner and are heading away from the gasoline era. By 2040, there will be far fewer gasoline stations. Why the hell would consumers continue to pay for that when they can harvest thousands of watts on a typical rooftop? My sunbelt state is already scrambling to figure out how to fund road maintenance because of the reductions in gas tax revenue. They want to start maintaining roads with car registration and sale fees.

There is a whole changing world happening outside of the cities. I can't raise enough hay for transportation horses, but I can affordably set up a solar array. Besides, horses don't provide air conditioning during the summer.

The right-wing Luddites on Lit are clinging to the past, as usual. Don't pay any attention to them-- look at what the major vehicle manufacturers are already doing in the USA, China, and Europe.

Gasoline and diesel will be around well into the foreseeable future. There are far too many ICE vehicles on the road and still being produced for the source of their fuel to dry up. Add to that the hobbyist with antique vehicles and the need doesn't dry up. As long as the oil companies can make money on it gas and diesel will survive.

The Amish where I used to live in Wisconsin get by with horses for every day transport, including into town to shop. No A/C no heat. It gets hot in Wisconsin as well as cold as hell and they do it.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Most Americans already live in big cities. The city of Los Angeles alone has 7x the population of the entire state of Wyoming.

Hurray for them. My bet is Wyoming is perfectly happy with their lesser population and more square miles per person. Plus they probably don't have homeless encampments and people shitting on the sidewalk.