The future is dense, walkable cities.

[AlexBailey]

If gas costs $3 / gallon and you get 30 mpg, your fuel cost is $.10 / mile.

If your electricity costs $.15 / kWh and your EV gets the typical 3 miles / kWh, your fuel cost is $.05 / mile.

A residential solar system can provide a kWh of electricity for ~ $ .15.

So if your electricity is cheaper than $.15 kWh, even without buying solar you will probably save money on fuel costs with an EV.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

If gas costs $3 / gallon and you get 30 mpg, your fuel cost is $.10 / mile.

If your electricity costs $.15 / kWh and your EV gets the typical 3 miles / kWh, your fuel cost is $.05 / mile.

A residential solar system can provide a kWh of electricity for ~ $ .15.

So if your electricity is cheaper than $.15 kWh, even without buying solar you will probably save money on fuel costs with an EV.

They bitch about the price of gas, they bitch that EV's are too expensive. My theory is; they like to bitch!

 

[AlexBailey]

What? Maybe expand on that. Normally you make good sense, but not here.

A micro grid is a small part of the main grid (or a fully independent ‘island’ of a grid) which can be disconnected from external sources and still provide electricity within its area.

Creating mini-grid sections within the main utility grid provides better reliability because a fault in one mini-grid section will not cause a shutdown in other sections.

I was working on expanding a rural mini-grid today. There have been recent utility outages in nearby areas that did not affect the customers I was doing this project for.

 

[AlexBailey]

They bitch about the price of gas, they bitch that EV's are too expensive. My theory is; they like to bitch!

Some of the motor heads saw the light when they discovered the superior performance characteristics of EVs.

Off the line Teslas are among the fastest super cars for performance. Show me a gas powered SUV that can keep up with a Mustang MACH-E

Ask any city bus driver about the performance difference between electric and diesel busses.

 

[ll74]

If gas costs $3 / gallon and you get 30 mpg, your fuel cost is $.10 / mile.

If your electricity costs $.15 / kWh and your EV gets the typical 3 miles / kWh, your fuel cost is $.05 / mile.

A residential solar system can provide a kWh of electricity for ~ $ .15.

So if your electricity is cheaper than $.15 kWh, even without buying solar you will probably save money on fuel costs with an EV.

They don't do math. Too busy with cultural horseshit

 

[AlexBailey]

A design that should be in use but so far isn’t is quick replace batteries.

It’s a simple thing to design, and if it gets used battery recycling will be far easier and much more efficient, it would also make EVs able to kick internal combustion’s ass at Le Mans.

Just pull into an exchange center, swap batteries and be on your way.

 

[AlexBailey]

They don't do math. Too busy with cultural horseshit

They don’t believe in science or math, but most of them speak $.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

A micro grid is a small part of the main grid (or a fully independent ‘island’ of a grid) which can be disconnected from external sources and still provide electricity within its area.

Creating mini-grid sections within the main utility grid provides better reliability because a fault in one mini-grid section will not cause a shutdown in other sections.

I was working on expanding a rural mini-grid today. There have been recent utility outages in nearby areas that did not affect the customers I was doing this project for.

I know what it is, what I don't understand is what Paul was trying to say about it.( the portion I put in bold in his post is where my question lies)

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Some of the motor heads saw the light when they discovered the superior performance characteristics of EVs.

Nothing like the instant torque of a DC motor!!!

 

[AlexBailey]

I know what it is, what I don't understand is what Paul was trying to say about it.( the portion I put in bold in his post is where my question lies)

I understand what Paul is saying perfectly, probably because I understand the control levels of micro-grid systems - that’s why I’m answering.

Having a grid as a whole broken into sub-sets (autonomous grid islands) of micro-grids gives managers the ability to break the grid into smaller finite sections - meaning smaller groups which can be limited to fewer and smaller subsets.

With the old grid design, a fault in one section can cascade to other sections, causing shutdowns in areas that don’t have faults.

Having more points of control and the ability to quickly break off other finite sections (limited areas) provides better reliability.



Ideally each micro-grid section would have production, storage, and distribution, but since we still use many large power production facilities, that power is distributed to different subsystems. Ever notice electrical substations? Those are where high voltage long distance transmission lines come into an area and the power is then transformed to lower voltage for distribution to neighborhoods and business districts.

Smart mini-grid design can make it so any one neighborhood can be fed from multiple distribution sources so if there is a fault in transmission lines or at a centralized source the mini-grids can use alternative sources, possibly disconnecting from all external sources and become stand-alone “islands.”

So yeah, what Paul said makes perfect sense.

 

[Chernosoth]

EVs are toys for rich cunts. The world doesn't have enough lithium to make the lithium battery EV a viable means of mass transportation. There is also the total energy cost, which includes manufacturing. EVs cost more energy in manufacturing. Replacing a battery in a used EV has been the point when drivers decide the cost is too high for the value of the car. When energy prices climb steeply, unnecessarily high energy costs will get a closer look. That particular toy fad may vanish next year.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I understand what Paul is saying perfectly, probably because I understand the control levels of micro-grid systems - that’s why I’m answering

I beg to differ, but if what you are saying Paul is saying you're incorrect.

Having a grid as a whole broken into sub-sets (autonomous grid islands) of micro-grids gives managers the ability to break the grid into smaller finite sections - meaning smaller groups which can be limited to fewer and smaller subsets.

You can't break the grid into finite sections. What you can do is have a closed system, which is not connected to the grid, except for demand loads through a substation. This will work in a residential area, but if there is to be a tie in to large industrial users, then the phasing and switching equipment needs to be isolated between users, which leads to doubling ( or more) of the equipment in the substations. Not to mention protection problems of the downstream home generators.

With the old grid design, a fault in one section can cascade to other sections, causing shutdowns in areas that don’t have faults.

Having more points of control and the ability to quickly break off other finite sections (limited areas) provides better reliability.

This only applies if the loads are of a residential or very small commercial scale. Any major load, with a "fast" demand rate will cause the voltage to drop and switch gear to open, or risk the loss of the source generation. Which in this case I assume you mean a neighbourhood supply from self RE generation as you outline below.

Ideally each micro-grid section would have production, storage, and distribution, but since we still use many large power production facilities, that power is distributed to different subsystems. Ever notice electrical substations? Those are where high voltage long distance transmission lines come into an area and the power is then transformed to lower voltage for distribution to neighborhoods and business districts.

As I mention above, they have to be isolated, when you are dealing with single phase generation, supply is simple. You want 240 from 120, you tap a transformer at 90 degrees on the phase and voila the 120 V doubles to be 240 V. But it is still single phase.

When you want real "power", the type that does the work, this no longer works and you need to operate a 3 phase system, which will not tie into a RE home generated system. Also 3 phase offers up an efficiency level, which means all the equipment can be made for much less cost. These system are used in the vast majority of electrical customers at the comercial level and industrial.

Smart mini-grid design can make it so any one neighborhood can be fed from multiple distribution sources so if there is a fault in transmission lines or at a centralized source the mini-grids can use alternative sources, possibly disconnecting from all external sources and become stand-alone “islands.”

All your describing here currently exists, there are two types of circuits. Radial and Looped ( this is for distribution not transmission). Most muncipal system use looped since you can isolate faults and redirect the power.

So yeah, what Paul said makes perfect sense.

Paul said "distribution and "finite control" ( what ever that is supposed to mean). Neither of which has anything to do with "micro grids"

Which is why I asked the question....

A micro grid is a closed looped system design to use up the energy produced by the connected within that grid, and have a tie in for "demand power" from the main grid as needed to make up for the shortfalls when the sun isn't shining the winds not blowing, and the storage is low.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Not ban them. Just redesign streets to prioritize other modes of transit. Convert car lanes into bus and bike lanes. Widen the sidewalks. Eliminate free public parking.

Many cities tried putting in parking meters and it almost killed their downtown shopping.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Fair point,but how often do you actually make the trip?

Enough times that I prefer not to sit and wait for my car to charge when I can fuel, piss and get a snack and be back on the road in 10 minutes.

So am I.

So we agree on Hydrogen? How did that happen.

Oil's not going anywhere for i'd say 100 years, maybe longer, until it runs out even. The point isn't to end the use of petroleum. It's to grab the low hanging fruit, which is really personal vehicles and where possible public transportation.

And as I say previously as soon as they can match the mileage my Subaru gets per tank I may take a look.

Then I won't hear you bitching about how much it costs to fill up, right?

I don't complain about gas prices because just like the weather I can't do anything about it. I will predict that gas prices will drop by about a gallon sometime in October.

I make bio-diesel for my farm tractor and backhoe. Diesel engines were designed to run on peanut oil. Ethanol is a waste of time, and effort IMHO. Lower fuel mileage, harder on the fuel system and it needs subsidies still to keep the cost down.

Ethanol has worked as a replacement in oil poor countries. It does need special hoses and fittings that are alcohol resistant. If subsidies are an issue then solar and windmills need to go since they are both heavily subsidized.

 

[AlexBailey]

I beg to differ, but if what you are saying Paul is saying you're incorrect.

You can't break the grid into finite sections. What you can do is have a closed system, which is not connected to the grid, except for demand loads through a substation. This will work in a residential area, but if there is to be a tie in to large industrial users, then the phasing and switching equipment needs to be isolated between users, which leads to doubling ( or more) of the equipment in the substations. Not to mention protection problems of the downstream home generators.

This only applies if the loads are of a residential or very small commercial scale. Any major load, with a "fast" demand rate will cause the voltage to drop and switch gear to open, or risk the loss of the source generation. Which in this case I assume you mean a neighbourhood supply from self RE generation as you outline below.

As I mention above, they have to be isolated, when you are dealing with single phase generation, supply is simple. You want 240 from 120, you tap a transformer at 90 degrees on the phase and voila the 120 V doubles to be 240 V. But it is still single phase.

When you want real "power", the type that does the work, this no longer works and you need to operate a 3 phase system, which will not tie into a RE home generated system. Also 3 phase offers up an efficiency level, which means all the equipment can be made for much less cost. These system are used in the vast majority of electrical customers at the comercial level and industrial.

All your describing here currently exists, there are two types of circuits. Radial and Looped ( this is for distribution not transmission). Most muncipal system use looped since you can isolate faults and redirect the power.



Paul said "distribution and "finite control" ( what ever that is supposed to mean). Neither of which has anything to do with "micro grids"

Which is why I asked the question....

A micro grid is a closed looped system design to use up the energy produced by the connected within that grid, and have a tie in for "demand power" from the main grid as needed to make up for the shortfalls when the sun isn't shining the winds not blowing, and the storage is low.

Other than adding the part about the difference between three phase systems and single phase you pretty much went over a lot of what I just did but I was taking what Paul said in a mathematical sense. See point finite.


A big part we left out is smart load management. Being able to shut down large loads when there is not enough supply or when there is a fault is a necessity. There are all sorts of problems and complications that come about when something happens, but there is great benefit to figuring it out.

I’ve set up business with limited backup resources, being strategic so they can keep operating in some capacity just off of a small scaled backup system.

Even most large manufacturers can still be productive with limited available electricity. Sure it can be a problem but not as bad as a complete blackout.

When subways or trains have some battery capacity they can benefit from regenerative braking and keeping surges off of their systems in normal use, then they have limited capacity available to make it to the next station in emergencies etc…

The tech exists. Smart meters are only the beginning…

 

[Paul_Chance]

Let me try this explanation, see if it helps.

Envision "The Grid" as a chess board, a selection of 8 x 8 subsections. The power to these subsections is currently controlled by the grid operator. They can turn the power on or off to a specific square. These squares are a specific size (and unlike the uniform chess squares, they're am organic variety of shapes and sizes.

Then, the move (gradually) to a micro-grid approach, where they take each square and make it a micro-version of the original chess board. Now, you have each of the original 64 squares, each contains 64 squares. Each of these new squares can be turned on or off, power can be routed to them via multiple paths.

Where as in the traditional grid (64 squares) you're compelled to effect a large number of customers when their is an adverse event effecting a single square. In the microgrid design you can radically minimize the impact of adverse events because it allows greater precision in response to adverse events.

In California, as in other states, a lot of what is driving them to this approach has been unreliability of the larger grid, combined with liability for grid wide events.

Make sense? As a concept, it's a good one.

Rather than 64 points of control, your would then have 64x64 points of control when it is completed. The increased points of control also allows the grid operator to route power into a given area via multiple routes. The further distribution, especially in terms of urban settings, means fewer customers resting on a single point of failure.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Going back to the original subject, that is really all the 15 minute city concept is.

Urban planners will go from squares of a certain size (assuming transportation by car), to squares of a smaller size (assuming/enabling transportation by foot). The concept that, rather than have your commercial zone large and spaced out to accommodate people driving to work and to get goods and services, they'll bring the commercial spaces in closer, so people can walk to them or connect easier and faster on public transit. It's an admirable goal for urban planning.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Going back to the original subject, that is really all the 15 minute city concept is.

Urban planners will go from squares of a certain size (assuming transportation by car), to squares of a smaller size (assuming/enabling transportation by foot). The concept that, rather than have your commercial zone large and spaced out to accommodate people driving to work and to get goods and services, they'll bring the commercial spaces in closer, so people can walk to them or connect easier and faster on public transit. It's an admirable goal for urban planning.

And a life I have zero interest in living. My idea of Hell is city living and packing everything tighter together just makes that Hell even worse. I prefer to stay out of cities unless absolutely necessary.

 

[coati]

Capitalism isn't going anywhere, so the nature of the beast will continue in a greener future. The life or death of the concept of 15 minute city is going to depend entirely on the invisible hand of capitalism.

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd. It's continuing to cause the destruction of our last remaining wild areas and sacred Native lands.

If the sprawling cancer that has overtaken southern California can be treated by dramatically reducing per capita energy consumption, great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that private corporations pumping even more juice from other states into that sprawl is the work of a divinely inspired invisible hand.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd. It's continuing to cause the destruction of our last remaining wild areas and sacred Native lands.

If the sprawling cancer that has overtaken southern California can be treated by dramatically reducing per capita energy consumption, great. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that private corporations pumping even more juice from other states into that sprawl is the work of a divinely inspired invisible hand.

I look at urbanization as blight. People and buildings packed together. Gangs, homelessness, crime, filth, pollution, make that life a definite NO for me.

California created its own mess and more urbanization is not the solution. California will continue to be an energy use sink hole because of the lifestyle that so many live there.

 

[Chernosoth]

Some of this thread looks like the bargaining stage of grief. We can still have most of we want, but we need more electric cars, micro grids, alternative energy, etc.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Some of this thread looks like the bargaining stage of grief. We can still have most of we want, but we need more electric cars, micro grids, alternative energy, etc.

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

 

[coati]

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

You must be talking about a very long time-horizon.

In the sunny southwestern portion of the USA, rural and suburban buildings will be able to support enough photovoltaic panels to fuel cars, and battery technology will continue to change and improve. By 2040, electric cars will be the norm for rural and suburban people, and gas powered vehicles will be in the expensive minority. Grid electricity will be much more expensive, so cities will need much more mass transit.

I've been to a number of cities in the USA and Europe where I drove my car to a mass transit station on the outskirts, parked, and then used mass transit for all my city business. I do not see the suburbs disappearing in the next century unless large-scale nuclear war breaks out or a large meteor hits the earth.

 

[RandyRebecca]

Nahhh, there is no such thing as a free market. And, the thousands of lobbyists in DC are clearly not invisible.

The notion that we "depend entirely" on the invisible hand of capitalism to find our way out of a crisis caused by runaway growth and corporate profits is absurd.

A lot of capitalists rely on, or relied on, corporate welfare, i.e. subsidies from taxpayers. It's absurd how so many talk like it's all down to the market. The market said in 2008 that they should go bust. Capitalism failed, and needed federal taxpayer bailouts to survive. The question is, why not nationalize those companies and cut out the super rich capitalists who failed us all? Why are they being bailed out instead?

 

[Lazaran]

Yes. Electric cars aren’t a long-term solution. They’re just a futile attempt to preserve 20th century car culture for a little longer in a world that can no longer afford it.

The private car is going away unless you live way out in the country. Suburbs filled with single-family homes will whither as a consequence.

The wealth / value and quality of life in the suburbs probably precludes your scenario materializing.

And if it does get to that point, (the abandonment of the suburbs) then it’s likely that civilization will have collapsed, with the survivors going even more rural.

There won’t be mass transit or power grids, and major urban centers will look like a scene from “Escape from New York”.

I personally envision a future with far more utilitarian personal electric vehicles that lack all the bells and whistles. (I wonder how much a totally stripped down, mass produced, electric “errand mobile” would cost?)

A super-efficient low-performance personal electric vehicle for necessity runs would be fairly optimal. Sharing of those vehicles would be truly optimal; even though sharing comes with its own set of problems,

That ^ future of “personal transportation” is sustainable imho.