The evidence is slowly accumulating that the Twin Towers were demolished........

[Ishmael]

An interesting but simplistic faulty misuse of mathematics . . .

Using this formula presumes that everything was converted from matter to energy, and that simply did not happen. Even with your allowances, this method simply does not adequately describe the energetics of the situation.

From my memory of the second hit, the plane was travelling a lot less than 300 knots. I did not seee the first one.

Given that velocity s a square term in your equation, a small upward difference in speed is magnified in effect by the squaring process and so biases the result to your hypothesis.

What if the plane was travelling at 100 kts? v^2 = 100 x 100 = 10,000

Compared to 300kts v^2 = 300 x 300 = 90,000.

Did you notice the nine times difference in your argument?

Sorry Don. You fail physics 101.

We are NOT talking e=mc^2 here. Simple thermo-dynamics.

The fact of the matter is that all of the mechanical energy of the strike was converted to thermal energy. Beat on a nail for a bit with a hammer and then pick up the nail. It may give you a glimmer of the nature of science.

Ishmael

 

[Don K Dyck]

Sorry Don. You fail physics 101.

We are NOT talking e=mc^2 here. Simple thermo-dynamics.

The fact of the matter is that all of the mechanical energy of the strike was converted to thermal energy. Beat on a nail for a bit with a hammer and then pick up the nail. It may give you a glimmer of the nature of science.

Ishmael

Uhmmm . . . I think you should go back and read your initial post on this point . . .

Your equation was:

"Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared"

By working in ft lbs you magnify your errors considerably MORE when compared to my knots calculation. Thisis simply an error in mathematics . . . as exposed by a former mathematics teacher . . .

 

[EllieTalbot]

It's been a while since I've clicked on a long GB conspiracy thread and actually read the whole darned thing.

Not bad. It's always a pleasure to see the truly ridiculous trod all over with proper enthusiasm and muddy boots (and no, I'm not referring to you as the boot-wearer, Don).

Although, I must admit, my favorite was zippy's post about the conspiracy theorists' booth at Ground Zero, and how none of the New Yorkers going by it "gave them the time of day."

Maybe, in this forum, with so many of us ready to bare argumentative fangs, passing by threads without giving such people their just (?) desserts is too difficult to resist.

After all, it's Lit. This is where we give in to temptation, is it not?

Having Fun in the Forests of the Hamptons (with the Jews, of course),
Ellie

 

[Ishmael]

Uhmmm . . . I think you should go back and read your initial post on this point . . .

Your equation was:

"Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared"

By working in ft lbs you magnify your errors considerably MORE when compared to my knots calculation. Thisis simply an error in mathematics . . . as exposed by a former mathematics teacher . . .

I'm sure you'll show me the err of my ways Don.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

It's been a while since I've clicked on a long GB conspiracy thread and actually read the whole darned thing.

Not bad. It's always a pleasure to see the truly ridiculous trod all over with proper enthusiasm and muddy boots (and no, I'm not referring to you as the boot-wearer, Don).

Although, I must admit, my favorite was zippy's post about the conspiracy theorists' booth at Ground Zero, and how none of the New Yorkers going by it "gave them the time of day."

Maybe, in this forum, with so many of us ready bare argumentative fangs, passing by threads without giving such people their just (?) desserts is too difficult to resist.

After all, it's Lit. This is where we give in to temptation, is it not?

Having Fun in the Forests of the Hamptons (with the Jews, of course),
Ellie

How ya doin' ya sexy thang?

Ishmael

 

[Gringao]

Uhmmm . . . I think you should go back and read your initial post on this point . . .

Your equation was:

"Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared"

By working in ft lbs you magnify your errors considerably MORE when compared to my knots calculation. Thisis simply an error in mathematics . . . as exposed by a former mathematics teacher . . .

Your mistake was to invoke the matter-to-energy equation, bright boy. As Ishmael properly noted, that is E=mc^2. This is simple conservation of energy. And the plane would not have hit at 100 knots...it would have stalled long before. 300 knots is probably closer to true air/ground speed.

I would disagree with Ish about all of the craft's kinetic energy being converted into thermal energy, however. Much of it was expended, no doubt, mechanically in the distortion of the superstructure of the WTC.

 

[Guest]

I am confused by this question . . . Allen claimed that the second attack would be deliberately timed so that the experienced emergency crews would be caught up and killed at work trying to rescue people from the first hit . . . and sadly, that was what happened . . .

Without a second attack, those workers still would have died when the fucking building fell on them. The second attack itself killed no emergency workers. They could have just bombed every fire station in the city instead. It probably would have been more efficient.

My question is, why kill experienced emergency crews? What advantage does that give? They're no different than any individual citizen that died unless you want their services sometime down the road. You know, like blowing up oil refineries in WW2 so that machines don't have fuel for future use. Had they blown up 10 more buildings 2 months after the attack, that would make a little sense I guess... but they didn't.

 

[Ishmael]

Your mistake was to invoke the matter-to-energy equation, bright boy. As Ishmael properly noted, that is E=mc^2. This is simple conservation of energy. And the plane would not have hit at 100 knots...it would have stalled long before. 300 knots is probably closer to true air/ground speed.

I would disagree with Ish about all of the craft's kinetic energy being converted into thermal energy, however. Much of it was expended, no doubt, mechanically in the distortion of the superstructure of the WTC.

A debatable point G. But regardless, the operative word is 'distortion' que?

Ishmael

 

[EllieTalbot]

How ya doin' ya sexy thang?

Ishmael

Pretty good.

Not sure whether to embrace fall or mourn the loss of summer, especially since the seasons are sorta job-related these days.

Most of my tomatoes are still green, dammit.

Gardener in Green Acres,
Ellie

 

[Ishmael]

Pretty good.

Not sure whether to embrace fall or mourn the loss of summer, especially since the seasons are sorta job-related these days.

Most of my tomatoes are still green, dammit.

Gardener in Green Acres,
Ellie

Feel blessed, my tomatoes got swamped by the two near misses.

It's a cycle. Everything is as it should be. Just fun to kick the wheel and make it wobble from time to time.

Chin up, chest out.

Ishmael

 

[Gringao]

A debatable point G. But regardless, the operative word is 'distortion' que?

Ishmael

Yeah, that's no small thing in structural engineering. Tons of steel doesn't mean anything if they're not under direct tension of compression...and they wouldn't be after having a jet slammed into them.

Don's apparently proud as punch, having plotted two points of a simple parabola on his graph. Math teacher, indeed...

 

[Ishmael]

Yeah, that's no small thing in structural engineering. Tons of steel doesn't mean anything if they're not under direct tension of compression...and they wouldn't be after having a jet slammed into them.

Don's apparently proud as punch, having plotted two points of a simple parabola on his graph. Math teacher, indeed...

*chuckle*

I'm still waiting for the knots to Ft/sec conversion.

Ishmael

 

[EllieTalbot]

Feel blessed, my tomatoes got swamped by the two near misses.

It's a cycle. Everything is as it should be. Just fun to kick the wheel and make it wobble from time to time.

Chin up, chest out.

Ishmael

Chest out...

Not sure I trust a male who tells me to thrust my chest out. The last time that happened I was ten, and two of the neighborhood boys rang the bell at my house, and, giggling uncontrollably, said, "Do this!" They then put their hands on their hips and stuck their chests out.

Despite being naive enough not to know the meaning of the word "virgin" until a few months after that, I was savvy enough to know what those boys were after.

But I won't slam the door in your face, Ish.

Sorry about your tomatoes.
That sucks.
But at least your house is intact!

Chesty at the Chesterfield,
Ellie

Edited for dunce-like typos, as is my wont

 

[Ishmael]

Chest out...

Not sure I trust a male who tells me to thrust my chest out. The last time that happened I was ten, and two of the neighborhood boys rang the bell at my house, and, giggling uncontrollably, said, "Do this!" They then put their hands on their hips and stuck their chests out.

Despite being naive enough not to know the meaning of the word "virgin" until a few months after that, I was savvy enough to know what those boy were after.

But I won't slam the door in your face, Ish.

Sorry about your tomatoes.
That sucks.
But at least your house is intact!

Chesty at the Chesterfield,
Ellie

If ya got it, flaunt it. Gravity will take care of things soon enough. But I know what you mean.

The house still stands. There is that. And the sweet potatoes are doing well. They shouldn't be, but they are.

Ishmael

 

[woody54]

Ishmael expressed the energy in BTUs, but it was largely mechanical energy, not thermal. The point was how much energy the superstructure absorbed mechanically, thus sustaining damage that allowed the fire to bring it down.

Yes, BTU's.

We used to use those quaint oldtime units back in the early 70's when I did my mechanical engineering education so I have more than a passing inkling of his point. The impact loading on the buildings was phenomenal but the issues surely rest around the delay before collapse with a not particularly dramatic fire after the first 10 minutes.

If the plane and its fuel blast crippled the building, it should have fallen down quicker, one would expect.

That damage notwithstanding, no-one has credibly nailed down the destruction sequence in an unquestionable way.

 

[velcroktty]

So why didn't this energy barbeque everyone in the vicinity including the Firemen that got there in time?

Maybe because the major effects of the heat from the fuel blast was outside the building ( as seen on TV) where all the free oxygen was... and after a quick poof it was all gone.

For a better understanding of the "poof" concept, the link below will allow you to watch a video which was shot during an actual event and shows footage of a Boeing 757, loaded with 10,000 gallons of fuel, traveling at approximately 345 mph crashing head on into a 77' 3.5" tall building.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/index.html

Also available for you to view are a variety of still photographs, taken by government officials, military personel as well as by media press and private citizens.

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone

www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pentagon/pentagoninfo.html

 

[woody54]

Without a second attack, those workers still would have died when the fucking building fell on them. The second attack itself killed no emergency workers. They could have just bombed every fire station in the city instead. It probably would have been more efficient.

My question is, why kill experienced emergency crews? What advantage does that give? They're no different than any individual citizen that died unless you want their services sometime down the road. You know, like blowing up oil refineries in WW2 so that machines don't have fuel for future use. Had they blown up 10 more buildings 2 months after the attack, that would make a little sense I guess... but they didn't.

You are totally obfuscating the point that the Twin Towers were a proven target of Middle Eastern terrorists and they had promised to have another shot.

Irrespective of your particular views on who was involved, the Twin Towers were iconic as a target in the Terror field and their destruction would mean only one response. This co-incidentally happened to conveniently mirror a long held view of the ruling elite in the Administration awaiting another Pearl Harbour. From the political minds that brought Operation Northwood to the Cabinet table, one could speculate that anything is possible but bad terrorists would always be the fall guys.

If there was a clean and transparent exposure of the information surrounding the event, there would be no conspiracy theories because everybody would know what really happened. The US governments paranoid secrecy has created a wealth of second guessers trying to make some truth from all the facts and misinformation out there.

The only beneficiaries from this whirlpool of theories, is the creators of the War on Terror who got want they wanted from the event.

 

[Gringao]

Yes, BTU's.

We used to use those quaint oldtime units back in the early 70's when I did my mechanical engineering education so I have more than a passing inkling of his point. The impact loading on the buildings was phenomenal but the issues surely rest around the delay before collapse with a not particularly dramatic fire after the first 10 minutes.

If the plane and its fuel blast crippled the building, it should have fallen down quicker, one would expect.

That damage notwithstanding, no-one has credibly nailed down the destruction sequence in an unquestionable way.

Nonsense, as has been amply demonstrated here. Quibbles aside, it's bizarre in the extreme to suggest that there were explosives that did the job.

 

[woody54]

For a better understanding of the "poof" concept, the link below will allow you to watch a video which was shot during an actual event and shows footage of a Boeing 757, loaded with 10,000 gallons of fuel, traveling at approximately 345 mph crashing head on into a 77' 3.5" tall building.

http://www.archives.cnn/2002/US/03/07/gen.pentagon.pictures/index.html

Also available for you to view are a variety of still photographs, taken by government officials, military personel as well as by media press and private citizens.

www.asile.org/citoyens/numerol13/pentagone

www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pentagon/pentagoninfo.html

Your links poofed into Error 404.

 

[woody54]

Nonsense, as has been amply demonstrated here. Quibbles aside, it's bizarre in the extreme to suggest that there were explosives that did the job.

Now who's paranoid?

You mentioned explosives, not me. I mentioned timing raising questions.
I can easily see why you made that link though

 

[Gringao]

Now who's paranoid?

You mentioned explosives, not me. I mentioned timing raising questions.
I can easily see why you made that link though

Please see thread title.

 

[velcroktty]

Your links poofed into Error 404.

oops my mistake, sorry about that. I believe they are corrected by the changes I made in my edit.

http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/9-11

 

[Ishmael]

Nonsense, as has been amply demonstrated here. Quibbles aside, it's bizarre in the extreme to suggest that there were explosives that did the job.

The conversion of ft/lbs of energy is done by merely dividing by 778 or something close. If he's interested in calories, I can do that too. Anyone can. Except woody apparently.

Ishmael

 

[Don K Dyck]

Yeah, that's no small thing in structural engineering. Tons of steel doesn't mean anything if they're not under direct tension of compression...and they wouldn't be after having a jet slammed into them.

Don's apparently proud as punch, having plotted two points of a simple parabola on his graph. Math teacher, indeed...

 

[Don K Dyck]

*chuckle*

I'm still waiting for the knots to Ft/sec conversion.

Ishmael

heheheheh . . . we went metric about 1966 . . . all that high school Physics nonsense has been long forgotten . . .