The evidence is slowly accumulating that the Twin Towers were demolished........

[ruminator]

The setting and some of the plot devices are distracting, but the thrust of the underlying tenet is chillingly credible to one who has spend decades in D.C.

Thanks for the link to that book. It looks to be a good one.

That principle of survival in the political realm for so long always made me wonder how HST survived. For such a loose cannon and potential liability it seems he was claimed his freedom one of two ways. He had to either have enough dirt on everyone that nobody could quiet him or he was allowed to continue because he was beneficial to the system amidst the tirades. He was funny as hell and is greatly missed.

Here's a link to a telephone interview he granted

Why exactly did you try to deliver an elk's heart to Jack Nicholson's house?

I thought it would be fun and it's in the spirit of our relationship. A little humor. I don't know, it just came to me tonight. I had a few bombs, you know. We do that pretty frequently, exchange bizarre presents. I couldn't have foreseen the horrible circumstances around it. He had just gotten in from LA. I didn't know it, but he had a stalker.......continued in full at linked source

 

[Don K Dyck]

Ah, another reader of rense.com I see.

from http://www.thetimesonline.com/artic...nd_state/d208fe2d5f40d6e686256f5400636a0a.txt :


Underwriters Laboratories denied that it ever certified the steel in the World Trade Center buildings and said Ryan wrote the letter "without UL's knowledge or authorization."

"UL does not certify structural steel, such as the beams, columns and trusses used in World Trade Center," said Paul M. Baker, a spokesman for the Northbrook, Ill.-based company.

Ryan was fired, Baker said, because he "expressed his own opinions as though they were institutional opinions and beliefs of UL."

"The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they're just wrong," Baker said.

Apparently, what you and Mr. Ryan are still missing is the fact that the steel didn't have to get anywhere near melting temperature for the building to fail, which is what Mr. Ryan says in his letter (if you read the whole thing).

Additionally, it seems that Mr. Ryan is a fraud, and was fired for being a fraud and misrepresenting UL.

Of course Mr. Baker could be lying about what UL labs does and doesn't do. Maybe one of you guys could check that for me.

Your other anectodal evidense is just that - anectdotal.

Please stop and try to evaluate this: These people who claim that the fires, which burned for up to an hour, weren't severe ARE STILL ALIVE.

This means they probably managed to get out of the buildings before they reached any appreciable size, therefore their accounts really have no significance in judging how bad the fires were at the time of collapse, which is the only instant in time that is relevant here.

I apologize, however, for using the term "raging". This term was an inadvertant choice on my part, probably brought on by seeing flames coming out of multiple floors of the building on TV.

I have some questions for the conspiracy freaks though, and I apologize if anyone has already asked them:

1) If explosives were used, they were planted on the very floors that the airliners hit, since film evidence shows clearly where the collapses started in each building. How did the pilots manage to hit the buildings in the exact spots where the explosives were? Obviously, they weren't terrorists...they were old recycled pilots from Air America! Or maybe they were just regular airline pilots. Were these pilots disgruntled because they had to take a pay cut in their last contract? Seem like an extreme way to get back at Delta...

2) If the government is lying about Mohammed Atta and the other eighteen, why would Osama Bin Laden back up it's cover story? Is Bin Laden secretly working for the Bush family? Wait, don't answer that...

3) Why didn't the government plant the explosives on the lowest floors of the building to inflict the maximum damage on the building? They could have at least doubled their body count by blowing up the 5th floor instead of the 70th.

3a) Why did the government let anyone get out at all? Why not just blow the buildings as soon as the disgruntled-pilot-driven airliners hit and catch everyone in the buildings instead of letting people escape for an hour? Why did the government allow the thirty minutes (or whatever the time period was) between building collapses occur? Again, it seems like the disgruntled pilots could have timed their efforts better. Lots of innocent people (targets) escaped because of their bungling.

4) Does the government have some sort of hatred for the FDNY and the NYPD? If they had just blown the buildings up and not let them burn for an hour, an awful lot of innocent firefighters and cops would have been saved.


That's all I've got for now. I've got more important shit to do than argue fantasy with a bunch of diaper-wearing shut-ins.

Thanks for another informative contribution PC . . .

Uhmmm . . . (4) is covered in Gary Allen's book, None Dare Call it Conspiracy published in 1971. He claimed that it was deliberate . . .

 

[Problem Child]

Thanks for another informative contribution PC . . .

Uhmmm . . . (4) is covered in Gary Allen's book, None Dare Call it Conspiracy published in 1971. He claimed that it was deliberate . . .

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but how does a book published in 1971 have any relation to 9/11 whatsoever?

 

[lustforlife74]

There is no truth but the official truth.

I'm glad there aren't any Hunter Thompson fans here.

There are we keep a low profile.

 

[Don K Dyck]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but how does a book published in 1971 have any relation to 9/11 whatsoever?

A sensible question PC . . . Gary Allen wrote None Dare Call it Conspiracy in 1971 based on Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time, 1968, MacMillan NY.

Allen predicted many things including a so-called "terrorist" double strike against a major commercial target in America. The time lag was designed to kill off the experienced emergency crews in the second hit. Sadly, it seems to have worked.

Check it out on Google, I believe that the full text is available there.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but how does a book published in 1971 have any relation to 9/11 whatsoever?

Yeah, tell me about it. It has to be published in 2002 or later to be relevant to 9/11.
you absolutely dunderfucked moron.

 

[Fala]

The evidence is slowly accumulating that the Twin Towers were demolished by charges set by demolition experts.


Thank you, Donkey Dick, for your latest tidbit of the truth.

Let's hope he never reproduced.

um...you're kinda like nuts...yo.

Hey you! You wit da face.....

 

[Guest]

OK, so, how is the Administration benefiting from this again? Besides saving a few hundred million that was going to come due 9/12?

Dyck, the experienced emergency crews were not wanted for what reason? So a second attack would be more effective?

 

[ruminator]

There are some factors to consider in all of this. In my opinion, it's all speculation to attempt any understanding of the future based on information available to all of us. None of us should believe everything we read and the personal bias we have affects the perception of any information. I tend to see coincidences of benefit giving more weight to the argument that the official story is inaccurate.

Many groups and individuals benefit from the horrendous tragedy of 9/11. It's not simply the administration alone and it's far beyond just US interests in a global economy.

It's another event in a multi-generational buildup of wealth, power and politics.

I don't consider the whole of the event a conspiracy because I don't think all entities involved had the same goal in mind. It's a combination of covert manipulation and some opportunistic renegades that stepped in to make a crucial difference. In that perspective I'd venture to say that some involved will never believe they've done anything wrong.

It's no shock to consider that any country would covertly support an undesirable ally for the greater good of a political ideology. To accomplish this, it takes illicit bargaining and money,....lots of unaccountable money to arm and support......say, rebels, for instance. It could be that it starts with a good intention and a credible threat halfway across the world is reduced but the other world powers involved also have interests that might take it in a new direction. Global corporate interests become bigger and continue to thrive on extra profits from the activity. A few in political power will always serve their own interests befor the public. All of them have the power of money to answer to and that's usually where their loyalties go first. When this takes priority over an honest foreign policy, it goes back into the dark world of things that have to be kept in a hole. The pipelines and oil interests in the mideast played a role in hundreds of different ways.

The true threat of radical religious zealots is also part of it but not the sole simple reason we're given to explain all of it. The exploitation and manipulation of those in that group was effective to fight other credible threats worldwide but their allegiance was always negotiable.

As a possible example,....the hijackers didn't volunteer to be suicide bombers. There's evidence to believe they thought they were only hijacking for hostages or otherwise not sending themselves to the great beyond. There's information to believe these low level pawns were used by various global interests for many different illicit jobs. There's reason to consider that the evidence of prior knowledge of the hijackers actions and residence, prior warnings of a coming event and lack of preventative action by authorities shows that authorities were allowing them to continue...as a way of catching them. Maybe they weren't rounded up earlier because auth. thought they had it under control but another group who also had this knowledge, stepped in and made other actions happen. These groups are so intertwined that none of them can rat out another one without bringing everyone down. It's the only stability politics has.

Do your own research and see who it was that has benefitted and it's a wide variety of social-political-finacial interests.

 

[ultra99]

This just in.......

I think we can explain the accounts of the unexplained explosions.

http://ftp.die.net/mirror/wtc/images/1160629.jpg

 

[ultra99]

Nope, no fire here.

http://ftp.die.net/mirror/wtc/images/3154681856.jpg

 

[ultra99]

So if there was no real fire, I guess these people just decided they could fly ?

Over 200 persons jumped to their death. The decision to not burn in the fires that did not exist.


http://images.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper.jpg

http://ftp.die.net/mirror/wtc/images/400persona.jpg

 

[catfish]

Don't you understand? The photo's are fake!! The Trilateral commission slipped LSD into all major brands of water, soda and beer as part of the one world, zionist conspiracy. You just thought you saw them. Now, I put my tinfoil hat back on so the black helicopters don't read my thoughts.

 

[Don K Dyck]

OK, so, how is the Administration benefiting from this again? Besides saving a few hundred million that was going to come due 9/12?

Dyck, the experienced emergency crews were not wanted for what reason? So a second attack would be more effective?

I am confused by this question . . . Allen claimed that the second attack would be deliberately timed so that the experienced emergency crews would be caught up and killed at work trying to rescue people from the first hit . . . and sadly, that was what happened . . .

 

[woody54]

Many groups and individuals benefit from the horrendous tragedy of 9/11. It's not simply the administration alone and it's far beyond just US interests in a global economy.

It's another event in a multi-generational buildup of wealth, power and politics.

.

This is the best perspective with which to view events surrounding 9/11.
There is ample questionable material about the actual event but the story has to be with the winners from this tragedy.

It is the money men who have come out on top with a state of permanent paranoia and war to exploit, and even down to a staggering jump in worldwide insurance charges overnight.

And on the world scale, it has given focus to take peoples minds off Globalisation, the tragedy of Africa and the Middle East peace process. All has been consigned to the archives without a murmur.

 

[Gringao]

I am confused by this question . . . Allen claimed that the second attack would be deliberately timed so that the experienced emergency crews would be caught up and killed at work trying to rescue people from the first hit . . . and sadly, that was what happened . . .

You're confused by more than that, Dick. The second plane hit a different tower, bright boy. No rescue worker was trapped in the North Tower when jet #2 hit the South Tower.

 

[Fagin]

Conspiracy

http://www.boardgamesrus.com/images/Conspiracy%20G11.jpg

Conspiracy

A spy game of bluffing and betrayal. All the excitement of international espionage!

Made by Milton Bradley in 1982 for 3-4 players ages 10 to adult.

COMPLETE contents include: 1 game board, 8 plastic spy playing pieces, 1 briefcase piece, 4 bank books with tally sheets and the instructions.

OBJECT: Be the first player to bring the top secret briefcase to your headquarters.

Box has no split corners and does have the normal shelf wear with some crushing to the box.

=====================

For a mere $17.99 you can solve the conspiracy.

 

[The Mutt]

Bird and McHale demolished the Twin Towers in 1986.


http://www.nba.com/rockets/images/14_Twin_Towers.jpg

 

[Problem Child]

Yeah, tell me about it. It has to be published in 2002 or later to be relevant to 9/11.
you absolutely dunderfucked moron.

Outstanding contribution to the discussion there, douchebag.

 

[Ishmael]

Just for the yucks of it I did some calculations for the strike on the first tower. That was AA Flt. 11.

The aircraft was a 757-200ER on a transcontinental flight so it was full fueled, but only had about half the rated passengers. The max. gross take off weight for that a/c is 300,000 lbs. I figured that the weight that struck the tower was 250,000 lbs.

I also estimated the airspeed at about 300 Kts. I figured they had it firewalled and 300kts is about 30 - 40 kts below the max. airspeed for that a/c at that altitude.

Using the standard calculation Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared, we find that the a/c struck the first tower with 75 Billion ft.lbs of energy.

If you convert ft/lbs to thermal energy you find that 96.364 Million BTU's were expended by the strike. Figuring that as much as 50% was distributed through the frame of the building, you're still left with some 48 Million BTU's being concentrated on the floors that were struck.

Ishmael

 

[woody54]

Just for the yucks of it I did some calculations for the strike on the first tower. That was AA Flt. 11.

The aircraft was a 757-200ER on a transcontinental flight so it was full fueled, but only had about half the rated passengers. The max. gross take off weight for that a/c is 300,000 lbs. I figured that the weight that struck the tower was 250,000 lbs.

I also estimated the airspeed at about 300 Kts. I figured they had it firewalled and 300kts is about 30 - 40 kts below the max. airspeed for that a/c at that altitude.

Using the standard calculation Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared, we find that the a/c struck the first tower with 75 Billion ft.lbs of energy.

If you convert ft/lbs to thermal energy you find that 96.364 Million BTU's were expended by the strike. Figuring that as much as 50% was distributed through the frame of the building, you're still left with some 48 Million BTU's being concentrated on the floors that were struck.

Ishmael

So why didn't this energy barbeque everyone in the vicinity including the Firemen that got there in time?

Maybe because the major effects of the heat from the fuel blast was outside the building ( as seen on TV) where all the free oxygen was... and after a quick poof it was all gone.

 

[Ishmael]

So why didn't this energy barbeque everyone in the vicinity including the Firemen that got there in time?

Maybe because the major effects of the heat from the fuel blast was outside the building ( as seen on TV) where all the free oxygen was... and after a quick poof it was all gone.

What firemen that got there in time? There's no evidence the the NYFD ever reached the floors that were struck.

As to your point regarding the fireball, you're right woody. But that didn't have a damn thing to do with my point.

Ishmael

 

[Gringao]

So why didn't this energy barbeque everyone in the vicinity including the Firemen that got there in time?

Maybe because the major effects of the heat from the fuel blast was outside the building ( as seen on TV) where all the free oxygen was... and after a quick poof it was all gone.

Ishmael expressed the energy in BTUs, but it was largely mechanical energy, not thermal. The point was how much energy the superstructure absorbed mechanically, thus sustaining damage that allowed the fire to bring it down.

 

[Don K Dyck]

Just for the yucks of it I did some calculations for the strike on the first tower. That was AA Flt. 11.

The aircraft was a 757-200ER on a transcontinental flight so it was full fueled, but only had about half the rated passengers. The max. gross take off weight for that a/c is 300,000 lbs. I figured that the weight that struck the tower was 250,000 lbs.

I also estimated the airspeed at about 300 Kts. I figured they had it firewalled and 300kts is about 30 - 40 kts below the max. airspeed for that a/c at that altitude.

Using the standard calculation Energy (ft/lbs) = Mass x velocity squared, we find that the a/c struck the first tower with 75 Billion ft.lbs of energy.

If you convert ft/lbs to thermal energy you find that 96.364 Million BTU's were expended by the strike. Figuring that as much as 50% was distributed through the frame of the building, you're still left with some 48 Million BTU's being concentrated on the floors that were struck.

Ishmael

An interesting but simplistic faulty misuse of mathematics . . .

Using this formula presumes that everything was converted from matter to energy, and that simply did not happen. Even with your allowances, this method simply does not adequately describe the energetics of the situation.

From my memory of the second hit, the plane was travelling a lot less than 300 knots. I did not seee the first one.

Given that velocity s a square term in your equation, a small upward difference in speed is magnified in effect by the squaring process and so biases the result to your hypothesis.

What if the plane was travelling at 100 kts? v^2 = 100 x 100 = 10,000

Compared to 300kts v^2 = 300 x 300 = 90,000.

Did you notice the nine times difference in your argument?

 

[Don K Dyck]

You're confused by more than that, Dick. The second plane hit a different tower, bright boy. No rescue worker was trapped in the North Tower when jet #2 hit the South Tower.

But numerous rescue worked died in the incident, right?? I think Allen's point is made satisfactorily.

Methinks that the discussion is descending into deppdetail to obfuscate the general premise that in 1971 a prediction was made that sadly turned out to be correct in a considerable amount of the detail.

The same tactic was used by the FBI when covering up the JFK assassination.