Sexism in erotic stories

[Bramblethorn]

Of course, a complicating factor is desire, and the hindbrain can be a tricky little sod, confounding all attempts at rationality. For example, I recall a friend of mine, many years ago, being (in my view) justifiably furious when he was accused of racism because he admitted that, on the whole, he doesn't fancy black girls (and he said at the time there were one or two he did find hot). Now, I know the man and whilst he might be politically to the right on many issues, he would go to the wall in the fight against racism. But that doesn't mean he has to find a group of people attractive or want to engage in intimate relationships with them. Is he then homophobic for being straight?

Is it automatically racist to not be attracted to black women? Nope.

Is it possible for that particular preference to be a product of racism? Yup.

Is racism an insidious thing that sometimes sneaks up on people who think themselves above it? Sure is.

So when one has a preference of this sort, it's worth putting a little time into contemplation just to think about where it's coming from. Sometimes it's "I saw a movie when I was ten that made a deep impression on me" or just "I have no idea why I like that", and that's fine. But sometimes the answer is "I picked up some stereotypes without even noticing", and that's an opportunity for self-improvement.

 

[GroverLang]

There used to be a form of modeling (maybe still is) where a live model would strike a pose and 'freeze' -- remain stark still for a period of time. Basically a live doll or mannequin. Then there was the movie 'Mannequin' with Kim Cattrall that could have gone further than it did if it wasn't PG.

The Windmill Theatre, in London, was famous for its nude ladies between 1932 and 1964. It was allowed for them to be naked provided they didn’t move.

If Mannequin had been rated 18 my eyes would have been glued to the screen whenever Kim Cattrall was on. Not that they weren’t anyway.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Is it automatically racist to not be attracted to black women? Nope.

Is it possible for that particular preference to be a product of racism? Yup.

Is racism an insidious thing that sometimes sneaks up on people who think themselves above it? Sure is.

So when one has a preference of this sort, it's worth putting a little time into contemplation just to think about where it's coming from. Sometimes it's "I saw a movie when I was ten that made a deep impression on me" or just "I have no idea why I like that", and that's fine. But sometimes the answer is "I picked up some stereotypes without even noticing", and that's an opportunity for self-improvement.

I agree. We can't always help the fact that we've been taught or unconsciously formed prejudices, but when red flags like that come up, it's an opportunity for self-examination and growth. Recognizing that we can do better doesn't mean we were bad to start with. It just means that we care enough to be better. Never growing as a person would just be sad.

Regardless of whether a person is inclined toward self improvement, I think this is a situation that's crying out for a filter. It's hard for me to understand how a preference could include an entire race if there's not an underlying prejudice, but I accept that it might be so. Even if such a preference is some sort of naturally occurring dislike of darker skin or non-caucasoid features, an adult should know better than to let it go flying thoughtlessly out of their mouth. I think most people would be embarrassed if their five year-old loudly announced in the grocery store that she didn't like playing with black girls. The grown man who says such a thing should really check himself.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I agree. We can't always help the fact that we've been taught or unconsciously formed prejudices, but when red flags like that come up, it's an opportunity for self-examination and growth. Recognizing that we can do better doesn't mean we were bad to start with. It just means that we care enough to be better. Never growing as a person would just be sad.

Regardless of whether a person is inclined toward self improvement, I think this is a situation that's crying out for a filter. It's hard for me to understand how a preference could include an entire race if there's not an underlying prejudice, but I accept that it might be so. Even if such a preference is some sort of naturally occurring dislike of darker skin or non-caucasoid features, an adult should know better than to let it go flying thoughtlessly out of their mouth. I think most people would be embarrassed if their five year-old loudly announced in the grocery store that she didn't like playing with black girls. The grown man who says such a thing should really check himself.

I accept what you are saying, but for the purposes of discussion...

If a woman says, for instance, "I just love big black cocks!", that's not supposed to be racist, but if the same woman says, "I really don't like big black cocks," that is supposed to be racist?

I - and I suspect just about every other sexually mature individual on the planet - have an image of an ideal sexual partner floating around in what's left of my brain. That in turn means that, the further any individual is away from that ideal, the less attractive I find them. It doesn't mean that they're bad people or stupid or dirty; it just means that I wouldn't particularly want to wake up in bed with them.

Taking it further, our 'ideal' also includes things like size, fitness, body type, age, grooming, culture, etc - and there's an opposite to all of those. Is one therefore not permitted these days to say, "Not my type - he's sloppy fat, has rotten table manners and doesn't bath enough? without being accused of being sizeist, elitist, and so forth?

Critically, sexuality seems hard-wired, but general behaviour is definitely learned. Postulate a white person who works with a lot of black people. They socialize, help each other in the office or ship, go to parties together, help each other move, live in the same neighbourhood - whatever, it's the full meal deal. Yet that individual prefers pale-skinned redheads in bed. Surely one cannot legitimately accuse him of racism ifhe says he's not attracted to black girls?

So, while understanding your concern, I think it's a bit more complex than you originally said. I think one can say, "No, actually, black men (or skinny Asians or plump whites) don't appeal to me sexually," without being a racist.

 

[Blind_Justice]

No idea if my sleep-deprived brain is able to convert my thoughts into adequate words. Just as a heads-up, okay?

Now, I tend to pick and choose my porn carefully, both the written and moving-pictures variety. To me, sex should be something shared between consenting parties who derive hopefully equal amounts of pleasure from the act.

When browsing pornhub, one can't help but notice the drastic difference in tone when males and females are referred to in video descriptions. Whore/Bitch/Slut/Sow versus Stud/Bull/Lucky Guy. The literal fuck, people! Are women not allowed to enjoy having sex? No one can tell me these are honorifics. It's okay if a guy has sex with a room full of "bitches", but the moment a woman does it on camera, she's a whore?

There's your sexism right there.

As for my stories - I happen to write strong female characters and keep away from what is usually referred to as "Alpha" males. No idea if that's some kind of sexism as well. I find the kind of man who enters a room, grabs a woman by the throat and tosses her onto the next sofa to brutally fuck her apallingly rude. Are there women out there who get wet when thinking about that kind of treatment?

Maybe I'm horribly old-fashioned. Who knows.

 

[lovecraft68]

No idea if my sleep-deprived brain is able to convert my thoughts into adequate words. Just as a heads-up, okay?

Now, I tend to pick and choose my porn carefully, both the written and moving-pictures variety. To me, sex should be something shared between consenting parties who derive hopefully equal amounts of pleasure from the act.

When browsing pornhub, one can't help but notice the drastic difference in tone when males and females are referred to in video descriptions. Whore/Bitch/Slut/Sow versus Stud/Bull/Lucky Guy. The literal fuck, people! Are women not allowed to enjoy having sex? No one can tell me these are honorifics. It's okay if a guy has sex with a room full of "bitches", but the moment a woman does it on camera, she's a whore?

There's your sexism right there.

As for my stories - I happen to write strong female characters and keep away from what is usually referred to as "Alpha" males. No idea if that's some kind of sexism as well. I find the kind of man who enters a room, grabs a woman by the throat and tosses her onto the next sofa to brutally fuck her apallingly rude. Are there women out there who get wet when thinking about that kind of treatment?

Maybe I'm horribly old-fashioned. Who knows.

I agree with the descriptions and certain sites...my wife calls it "hole to hole" porn where the guy does just that. Even threesome videos with a woman and two guys, she's playing with herself because they can't be bothered to so much as grab her tit.

Sites like Pure Mature. Passion HD and others have actual foreplay in the vids, kissing undressing, and "gasps" even the guy going down on the woman.

Like here, you have straight up porn which is directed entirely at male fantasy and satisfaction and more erotic sites that have figured out women like porn too, and you can get their views and money by making the sex a two way street.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I accept what you are saying, but for the purposes of discussion...

If a woman says, for instance, "I just love big black cocks!", that's not supposed to be racist, but if the same woman says, "I really don't like big black cocks," that is supposed to be racist?

Actually, I don't think I posited that the first instance would be racist, just that a filter ought to be engaged. I find both statements reflective of prejudgment. One happens to be offensive and the other isn't because one is negative and the other is positive. One is more rational than the other, but there's a difference in the propensity to be hurtful. Hence, the filter.

If I had a five year old yelling in the supermarket about how she only likes to play with black girls, when we got home, we'd be having a discussion about seeing people as individuals. It would be basically the same discussion we would be having if the five year old said she didn't want to play with black girls.

I - and I suspect just about every other sexually mature individual on the planet - have an image of an ideal sexual partner floating around in what's left of my brain. That in turn means that, the further any individual is away from that ideal, the less attractive I find them. It doesn't mean that they're bad people or stupid or dirty; it just means that I wouldn't particularly want to wake up in bed with them.

Honestly, I don't. My earliest crush was a boy who, in retrospect, looked an awful lot like one of those little white mice. He had the same pink ears when the sunlight shined through them as we sat facing each other in seats across the aisle of the school bus. His headgear braces made the ears stand out a tad more. But I thought he was beautiful, sitting there reading his ElfQuest magazines. (He wouldn't let me see them because he thought they were too risque for me, even though we were the same age.) I still do think he was beautiful, especially the sunlight shining through his ears. I just now have an understanding that he probably wasn't most people's dream boy. When I remember him, it checks all my boxes, just as much as it does when I remember the guy I dated in my twenties that looked like he stepped out of a calendar shoot. (So yummy.)

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a physical ideal. It's just good, in my opinion, to examine the basis for that ideal. I don't believe I have accused anyone of being size-ist, elitist, or anything like that. I do think it would be highly inappropriate for someone to sit at the bar talking about how they find fat men unattractive. I find it inappropriate because it is rude and insensitive, not because I think it's wrong to have a preference. (Although it is limiting.)

...Critically, sexuality seems hard-wired, but general behaviour is definitely learned. Postulate a white person who works with a lot of black people. They socialize, help each other in the office or ship, go to parties together, help each other move, live in the same neighbourhood - whatever, it's the full meal deal. Yet that individual prefers pale-skinned redheads in bed. Surely one cannot legitimately accuse him of racism ifhe says he's not attracted to black girls?

I don't really see a person's social experience as being determinative of whether an attitude is racist. (Why does this illiterate spell check not know the word, "determinative?") People are quite capable of being prejudiced against others of their own race, after all. Again, though, I haven't accused anyone of being racist because of a physical preference.

So, while understanding your concern, I think it's a bit more complex than you originally said. I think one can say, "No, actually, black men (or skinny Asians or plump whites) don't appeal to me sexually," without being a racist.

Actually, we may be talking past each other. I didn't say it was racist to say that a certain racial characteristic didn't appeal to a person. Maybe I didn't convey what I meant very well, or maybe I'm not understanding where you're coming from now. I do think that anytime a preference can be applied to an entire group of people, especially a group about which we know we have received discriminatory messaging that may have unconsciously influenced us, it's worth examining why we feel the way we do. A person should want to know, right? The larger point wasn't about whether a person is justified in a preference. It was about engaging the filter before saying something hurtful. Nobody has to do that, but do we really want to be the five-year old in the grocery store yelling, "Mommy, look at that lady's face!"? That's all I was driving at.

If I'm not getting where you're coming from, I'm not being obtuse. I legitimately don't understand, unless it's that I wasn't clear enough about what I meant.

 

[LWulf]

We can't always help the fact that we've been taught or unconsciously formed prejudices, but when red flags like that come up, it's an opportunity for self-examination and growth. Recognizing that we can do better doesn't mean we were bad to start with. It just means that we care enough to be better. Never growing as a person would just be sad.

But that doesn't necessarily mean "bad."

It's hard for me to understand how a preference could include an entire race if there's not an underlying prejudice, but I accept that it might be so.

Let's try a different perspective. Can you imagine how someone could hate an entire sex? Like a woman who has felt victimized by men all her life?

By extension, does that mean that all women who became lesbians because they saw ALL men as being womanizers, MUST be 'healed'? That they MUST self examine, and grow?

Let's bring it closer to home. My mom was raped twice by black men. She'd become an emotional wreck if she was suddenly alone with a black male (much worse if it was a group of males, as that was one of the conditions under which she was raped). Didn't matter his age. Didn't matter if he was acting in a threatening manner or not. Does that preference, mean she MUST change her view? All her life, she couldn't be alone around someone who was Black and male, even though she was a manager and had to give reviews to Black males.

Was it an irrational fear? Yes, but I don't know anybody that would fault her for running like mad when she was around black males. Nor tell her she MUST overcome that fear. She HAD to work and live around them, there was a high amount of Black folks in the area she lived. She was calm as long as there were other people around, but when she was alone with one (or a bunch)... BOING!

Even if such a preference is some sort of naturally occurring dislike of darker skin or non-caucasoid features, an adult should know better than to let it go flying thoughtlessly out of their mouth. I think most people would be embarrassed if their five year-old loudly announced in the grocery store that she didn't like playing with black girls. The grown man who says such a thing should really check himself.

Years ago, there was this stupid libitard commercial by the Mormons/hlds many years ago. It was a kid with his grandfather in a boat fishing. The kid says his friend called him a racist, and asks what does it mean. The kid's grandfather tells him, then asks "Who is [the friend's name]?" The kid answers "He's my Black friend."

The grandfather says "then you are racist, because you look at him as your Black friend instead of as your friend."

On one level, partly true, as also it's partly false. Recognizing differences between people doesn't mean racism. It might be that the little boy celebrated his friend's differences. Children are usually not that deep, that he said the other boy with his friend should be enough that he wasn't racist. A truly racist (white) kid wouldn't have a "black kid" as a friend.

When is it 'okay'? When is it not? Who is to say that my inability to get a job in south Florida stemming from my inability to speak spanish fluently isn't 'okay' for me to distrust Spaniards? (part Spanish and Portuguese myself, thank you). That the employees that get hired can't speak a lick of english, never comes into it, because it's perfectly legal for them to have those rules, as long as it applies to all people, and the US doesn't have a "State (official) Language."

While I lived in Pennsylvania, the Deutsch (so called 'Dutch') people there got extremely upset that stores were universally making bilingual signs "Exit", "Push to open", etc. in spanish. "We've been here a hell of a lot longer and we still speak german! Why not make bilingual signs english/german???" That's not an exaggeration, I heard that from more than several people.

In regards to my mother (and lesbians in general), does the only reason that makes a 'hate' appropriate, is when someone can prove why it's 'rational' or at least 'understandable' for them to not overcome it, and grow past it?

There are parts of the brain that are primal. Fear, like/love comes from that place. It can't always be overwritten, or 'educated' out of a person.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

But that doesn't necessarily mean "bad."



Let's try a different perspective. Can you imagine how someone could hate an entire sex? Like a woman who has felt victimized by men all her life?

By extension, does that mean that all women who became lesbians because they saw ALL men as being womanizers, MUST be 'healed'? That they MUST self examine, and grow?

Let's bring it closer to home. My mom was raped twice by black men. She'd become an emotional wreck if she was suddenly alone with a black male (much worse if it was a group of males, as that was one of the conditions under which she was raped). Didn't matter his age. Didn't matter if he was acting in a threatening manner or not. Does that preference, mean she MUST change her view? All her life, she couldn't be alone around someone who was Black and male, even though she was a manager and had to give reviews to Black males.

Was it an irrational fear? Yes, but I don't know anybody that would fault her for running like mad when she was around black males. Nor tell her she MUST overcome that fear. She HAD to work and live around them, there was a high amount of Black folks in the area she lived. She was calm as long as there were other people around, but when she was alone with one (or a bunch)... BOING!



Years ago, there was this stupid libitard commercial by the Mormons/hlds many years ago. It was a kid with his grandfather in a boat fishing. The kid says his friend called him a racist, and asks what does it mean. The kid's grandfather tells him, then asks "Who is [the friend's name]?" The kid answers "He's my Black friend."

The grandfather says "then you are racist, because you look at him as your Black friend instead of as your friend."

On one level, partly true, as also it's partly false. Recognizing differences between people doesn't mean racism. It might be that the little boy celebrated his friend's differences. Children are usually not that deep, that he said the other boy with his friend should be enough that he wasn't racist. A truly racist (white) kid wouldn't have a "black kid" as a friend.

When is it 'okay'? When is it not? Who is to say that my inability to get a job in south Florida stemming from my inability to speak spanish fluently isn't 'okay' for me to distrust Spaniards? (part Spanish and Portuguese myself, thank you). That the employees that get hired can't speak a lick of english, never comes into it, because it's perfectly legal for them to have those rules, as long as it applies to all people, and the US doesn't have a "State (official) Language."

While I lived in Pennsylvania, the Deutsch (so called 'Dutch') people there got extremely upset that stores were universally making bilingual signs "Exit", "Push to open", etc. in spanish. "We've been here a hell of a lot longer and we still speak german! Why not make bilingual signs english/german???" That's not an exaggeration, I heard that from more than several people.

In regards to my mother (and lesbians in general), does the only reason that makes a 'hate' appropriate, is when someone can prove why it's 'rational' or at least 'understandable' for them to not overcome it, and grow past it?

There are parts of the brain that are primal. Fear, like/love comes from that place. It can't always be overwritten, or 'educated' out of a person.

I didn't stop reading at "libtard," but I seriously considered it. I wanted to try to at least understand where you're coming from. I could be wrong, but I think I do. I just disagree with it very much. I've encountered the arguments you're making many times. For me, they're justifications for feeling a certain way. Certainly, a traumatized person is not to be blamed for developing a prejudice against people who remind her of her attacker(s). I think many victims would agree, though, that the infliction of that prejudice was also part of the victimization. If people didn't feel that way before they were victimized, I think they probably feel resentful of feeling like that afterward.

I absolutely disagree about children not being that deep. Sure, there are shallow children, and they generally grow up to be shallow adults. Children aren't miniature adults, but they're not simplistic, either. If they seem so, I think it's probably because they aren't yet capable of expressing themselves in more complex ways. I could be wrong, but I don't think most people would think of themselves as simple when they were children.

One of the problems I see with this type of argument is that they're straw-man arguments. They don't reflect the original premise.

 

[lovecraft68]

But that doesn't necessarily mean "bad."



Let's try a different perspective. Can you imagine how someone could hate an entire sex? Like a woman who has felt victimized by men all her life?

By extension, does that mean that all women who became lesbians because they saw ALL men as being womanizers, MUST be 'healed'? That they MUST self examine, and grow?

Let's bring it closer to home. My mom was raped twice by black men. She'd become an emotional wreck if she was suddenly alone with a black male (much worse if it was a group of males, as that was one of the conditions under which she was raped). Didn't matter his age. Didn't matter if he was acting in a threatening manner or not. Does that preference, mean she MUST change her view? All her life, she couldn't be alone around someone who was Black and male, even though she was a manager and had to give reviews to Black males.

Was it an irrational fear? Yes, but I don't know anybody that would fault her for running like mad when she was around black males. Nor tell her she MUST overcome that fear. She HAD to work and live around them, there was a high amount of Black folks in the area she lived. She was calm as long as there were other people around, but when she was alone with one (or a bunch)... BOING!



Years ago, there was this stupid libitard commercial by the Mormons/hlds many years ago. It was a kid with his grandfather in a boat fishing. The kid says his friend called him a racist, and asks what does it mean. The kid's grandfather tells him, then asks "Who is [the friend's name]?" The kid answers "He's my Black friend."

The grandfather says "then you are racist, because you look at him as your Black friend instead of as your friend."

On one level, partly true, as also it's partly false. Recognizing differences between people doesn't mean racism. It might be that the little boy celebrated his friend's differences. Children are usually not that deep, that he said the other boy with his friend should be enough that he wasn't racist. A truly racist (white) kid wouldn't have a "black kid" as a friend.

When is it 'okay'? When is it not? Who is to say that my inability to get a job in south Florida stemming from my inability to speak spanish fluently isn't 'okay' for me to distrust Spaniards? (part Spanish and Portuguese myself, thank you). That the employees that get hired can't speak a lick of english, never comes into it, because it's perfectly legal for them to have those rules, as long as it applies to all people, and the US doesn't have a "State (official) Language."

While I lived in Pennsylvania, the Deutsch (so called 'Dutch') people there got extremely upset that stores were universally making bilingual signs "Exit", "Push to open", etc. in spanish. "We've been here a hell of a lot longer and we still speak german! Why not make bilingual signs english/german???" That's not an exaggeration, I heard that from more than several people.

In regards to my mother (and lesbians in general), does the only reason that makes a 'hate' appropriate, is when someone can prove why it's 'rational' or at least 'understandable' for them to not overcome it, and grow past it?

There are parts of the brain that are primal. Fear, like/love comes from that place. It can't always be overwritten, or 'educated' out of a person.

I fall under the type who, especially now with all this 'woke' bullshit going on thinks running around telling me about your black, gay, trans, women etc friends is if not racist, just pandering and tokenism...it sure as hell isn't being supportive of their favorite word "empowering"

Sorry, but I don't need to prove to anyone I'm not racist by telling you how many diverse friends I have or running around like a condescending moron yelling "Yay, Black people, I love black people"

I have friends, some from different ethnic groups than myself, some with different sexual preferences and gender and...ready for this? I have friends with different political beliefs from me...and they're still friends...imagine that, actual tolerance rather than saying I'm tolerant and spewing hate at anyone not like me.

But I never say "Yeah, my gay friend Gary, or my Muslim friend....people are people and needing to put something in front of the word friend is just a way to try and act self righteous and woke and better than

If I'm telling you about Larry who plays on my dart team, do I need to say "Black Larry?"...

Also if you want to really think about something...why is 'colored people" racist...but people of color isn't? Because a bunch of woke jokes coined the term, but they of course can't be racist.

Growing up literally the only white kid in an all black neighborhood may explain why I see it this way because I was odd one out in a way, and never treated any differently, I wasn't "hey, know that white kid on Oxford street?" it was just by my name.

I grew up in inner city neighborhoods and went to predominantly black and hispanic populated schools so most of my friends growing up were 'diverse' so I never thought anything of it...until I went to high school a college prep school filled with kids who came from mostly Catholic middle schools and who were a bunch of elitist racist shit stains and that's when I started hearing black this and spanish that...except in slur form...I dated a black girl and had coon lover written on my locker several times...

So due to all that, I know racism when I see it, and TBH I see more of it in the people screaming certain types of people or certain political factions are racist, than I do in the alleged racist groups.

Look at superhero movies or other Hollywood remakes. A director looking to get cheap attention picks a black actor./actress to take over a long established role previously white and they go "look how woke I am! Look at this empowerment!"

No, look at your tokenism, look at your cheap copy pasting of one color/gender over another to pander to snowflakes and race baiters....wouldn't empowering be creating all new original characters for diverse actors to own from day one instead of "I remember when so and so was white"

The term progressive...is a joke, its really regressive.

"I support you black people, I love you, Oh, look at you!(pats them on the head) you have your own movies and TV shows and I'm so happy, but...never forget yiou couldn't do it without us white people propping you up.

Because that is the truth behind these people...they think diverse people can't succeed on their own...somehow ignoring all the athletes, singers, actors politicians and other successful diverse people over the last 40 years and thinking they're the ones who have gotten them to where they are.

MLK didn't preach hand outs or hand ups, he preached equality and rising up. Now its white guilt millennial hypocrites saying black folks can't get anywhere unless we give them everything.

Pardon the rant, but it makes me sick and all the friends I still have from back in the day will be the first ones to tell you, show me the proclaimed 'progressive' and you've found the racist in the room.

Look up a guy on you tube Jericho Green...he has a lot of videos on that topic including 'liberals are the most racist people' where he gives some examples of the condescending BS these people sling.

Rant done, I'm off to go to a cook out...with some 'friends'

 

[Damoiselle]

I didn't stop reading at "libtard," but I seriously considered it. I wanted to try to at least understand where you're coming from. I could be wrong, but I think I do. I just disagree with it very much. I've encountered the arguments you're making many times. For me, they're justifications for feeling a certain way. Certainly, a traumatized person is not to be blamed for developing a prejudice against people who remind her of her attacker(s). I think many victims would agree, though, that the infliction of that prejudice was also part of the victimization. If people didn't feel that way before they were victimized, I think they probably feel resentful of feeling like that afterward.

I absolutely disagree about children not being that deep. Sure, there are shallow children, and they generally grow up to be shallow adults. Children aren't miniature adults, but they're not simplistic, either. If they seem so, I think it's probably because they aren't yet capable of expressing themselves in more complex ways. I could be wrong, but I don't think most people would think of themselves as simple when they were children.

One of the problems I see with this type of argument is that they're straw-man arguments. They don't reflect the original premise.

When people respond to you as an opportunity to rant against a perceived stereotype that you remind them of (but said nothing to warrant), it can--in my experience--feel someone is filling your stomach with lead and leading you to water.

It's a shitty feeling. You don't deserve it.


(edit: I made a thread in the politics section, fyi)

 

[TarnishedPenny]

EoN - understood.

 

[SimonDoom]

The responses in this thread are interesting, and to some degree not surprising. One of the common things you see in threads like this is people falling back into a defensive posture, as though the raising of the question in the thread is somehow an implied challenge or threat to their way of looking at things.

In this case, the defense is, I can write and feel what I want and you can't accuse me of sexism!

I lapse into this defensive posture myself sometimes. I've done it recently in other threads.

One of the impetuses for my starting this thread was reading AwkwardMD's latest story Human Resource, a story about an intelligent and professional woman whose interactions in the office are interrupted by fantasies about being sexually dominated and degraded by men. AwkwardMD obviously is not sexist. But as I read the story I thought to myself, if, as a hetero male, I wrote this story, what would be my motivation? Many of my stories have themes of female exhibitionism, sadomasochism, and submission. I obviously find these themes erotic. Why? I don't know. Is there an element of sexism involved? I have no answer to that. Maybe. But I think mindfulness is a good thing. Not being judgmental, but being mindful. Having written 31 stories I find myself thinking more about what I've written and wondering why, and I'm mildly optimistic that by being more mindful of the full implications of what I'm writing I can write better stories. We'll see.

In the meantime I'm curious to see more of how this thread plays out.

 

[Damoiselle]

The responses in this thread are interesting, and to some degree not surprising. One of the common things you see in threads like this is people falling back into a defensive posture, as though the raising of the question in the thread is somehow an implied challenge or threat to their way of looking at things.

In this case, the defense is, I can write and feel what I want and you can't accuse me of sexism!

I lapse into this defensive posture myself sometimes. I've done it recently in other threads.

One of the impetuses for my starting this thread was reading AwkwardMD's latest story Human Resource, a story about an intelligent and professional woman whose interactions in the office are interrupted by fantasies about being sexually dominated and degraded by men. AwkwardMD obviously is not sexist. But as I read the story I thought to myself, if, as a hetero male, I wrote this story, what would be my motivation? Many of my stories have themes of female exhibitionism, sadomasochism, and submission. I obviously find these themes erotic. Why? I don't know. Is there an element of sexism involved? I have no answer to that. Maybe. But I think mindfulness is a good thing. Not being judgmental, but being mindful. Having written 31 stories I find myself thinking more about what I've written and wondering why, and I'm mildly optimistic that by being more mindful of the full implications of what I'm writing I can write better stories. We'll see.

In the meantime I'm curious to see more of how this thread plays out.

We're all evolving beings--hopefully. I've little doubt that someday I'll look back on some of the things I take for granted now and cringe. I already have plenty of practice at realizing that a lot of my own instinctive defenses I've put up weren't as necessary as they felt in those moments.

 

[oggbashan]

Some of my stories are femdom.

They arouse passions in anonymous commenters who feel threatened in their masculinity by any story that shows a woman as powerful or controlling even if the male's surrender is consensual.

Odd.

 

[LWulf]

I fall under the type

The term progressive...is a joke, its really regressive.

If I'm telling you about Larry who plays on my dart team, do I need to say "Black Larry?"...

Pardon the rant, but it makes me sick and all the friends I still have from back in the day will be the first ones to tell you, show me the proclaimed 'progressive' and you've found the racist in the room.

Rant done, I'm off to go to a cook out...with some 'friends'

If you had a Black Larry and White Larry, Yes. Dumping guilt on a 6-7 year old kid telling him he's racist for saying his friend is black, no.

You're right. I never grew up in a school where I was the only white guy. I grew up in several schools. One where I felt I had to hide my non-white heritage. One where everyone was Spanish and Black, and I was looked on as being one of the few "white" kids there, regardless that I told them I wasn't. One school, was around 80% Black, and Run DMC was in my classes (of course they weren't that group yet. Darryl was quiet and boring while "Run" was the guy most likely to get in trouble, constantly joking around. That's probably why I liked him). At that school, the only good math teacher was a Black man, and the White man was a fucking jerk, who preferred to sit near the pretty girls and make all the guys look stupid. Oh! I'm sorry, I should act properly libitard and apologize for noting any racial differences. That's sooo wrong!

I'm not saying "overjoyed celebration" of differences, but pointedly ignoring racial differences can be just as racial as pointedly pointing them out.

Oh, I have various political friends too, but usually the libitards keep touting their agendas. "Oh, I respect differences, but you should try to be better than you are."

If you're so non-woke, then why did you mention that your girlfriend was black? You should feel ashamed for observing that she was different!!!

Seriously, are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me???

I didn't stop reading at "libtard," but I seriously considered it. I wanted to try to at least understand where you're coming from. I could be wrong, but I think I do. I just disagree with it very much. I've encountered the arguments you're making many times. For me, they're justifications for feeling a certain way. Certainly, a traumatized person is not to be blamed for developing a prejudice against people who remind her of her attacker(s). I think many victims would agree, though, that the infliction of that prejudice was also part of the victimization. If people didn't feel that way before they were victimized, I think they probably feel resentful of feeling like that afterward.

I absolutely disagree about children not being that deep. Sure, there are shallow children, and they generally grow up to be shallow adults. Children aren't miniature adults, but they're not simplistic, either. If they seem so, I think it's probably because they aren't yet capable of expressing themselves in more complex ways. I could be wrong, but I don't think most people would think of themselves as simple when they were children.

One of the problems I see with this type of argument is that they're straw-man arguments. They don't reflect the original premise.

Well, I used to be a libitard, until I saw the red flags and grew past it.

I didn't give straw man arguments, I addressed what you said and you decided to ignore my rationale so you could perceive what you claimant you can't. The one problem with your argument, is, you don't have an argument. You'd prefer to fence sit, to patronize and placate ending with "...but you could be better!"

Yes, children are simple. They speak plainly, and they like what they like, and don't like what they don't like. They are a lot more pure than us. It's when they grow up and learn to speak out the side of their face that they become "adults."

Justifications for something that is not perfect, and never will be. I can live with that. The problem is, you can't. The problem then becomes, you try to make your problem into everyone else's problem.

You'll be content only when language is completely restructured and reiterated into a politically correct diatribe of red tape to justify your feelings of self-flagellation for wrongs you never committed. But language can't be perfected, and you'll go on and on, cycle after cycle; trying to fix what isn't broken and can't be fixed.

Just so this isn't looked upon as being a hijacking, sexual inequalities exist in stories, because all stories personify. Women are bimbo-ized, but guys aren't bimbo-ized into "big dick-fucking machines?" Don't kid yourselves, it goes both ways. If you make stories so milquetoast then much like the "Marvel movies"; you remove the concept of someone has to be right, somebody has to be wrong. You end up with heroes who do bad things and bad guys who "just wanted their own slice of heaven."

The world is what it is. Quit trying to shine the world into something that it isn't. People aren't perfect, they never will be. If libitards are so "accepting of peoples differences" then accept that people are less than "PERFECT," just like story characters. In that regard, stories reflect perfectly on life. Ignoring people's peccadilloes, is the same as ignoring racial differences.

 

[oggbashan]

I once worked in an office where there were three young women clerks. Their names were Miss White, Miss Black, and Miss Brown. None of their skin colours matched their surnames but the three of them covered those skin colours.

They were friends who had attended the same schools. On the telephone you couldn't tell them apart as they all spoke received pronunciation but in the office and among themselves they all spoke Cockney.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

We're all evolving beings--hopefully. I've little doubt that someday I'll look back on some of the things I take for granted now and cringe. I already have plenty of practice at realizing that a lot of my own instinctive defenses I've put up weren't as necessary as they felt in those moments.

That's how I feel.

It took me years to sort myself out from the racist garbage I grew up with, and I'm know I can't possibly have purged it all. It's hard to constantly be "at war" when you're a kid, and there were so many compromises. There were too many times I swallowed a load of nastiness because I told myself, "but it's true sometimes," or gratefully accepted it when my parents dialed back the racism just enough to make individual exceptions to it. At least, back then, I thought the exceptions were dialing it back. I realize now that the exceptions are just what happens when stereotypes bump up against reality.

Things like racism are the easiest to try to root out. More insidious are attitudes like thinking less of people if they are less conventionally intelligent. I'm not sure I've ever met an angry person who didn't think they were smarter than most of the people around them. "Common sense" is the phrase that's usually thrown around. I know perfectly well that a person's value isn't in their intelligence, yet I still find myself branding people "idiots" in my head and thinking of them dismissively. Worse, I usually find it hard to regret those thoughts. I've gotten much better about saying things like that, but I don't want that garbage gumming up my brain like it does. I don't want to be that person, but I don't always want it badly enough.

I hope that ten years from now, I look back at my thinking today and realize the shortcomings, because that will mean I've grown. Refusing to change is only a good thing if you're perfect. I'd have to disagree with anyone who thinks they're perfect, but I KNOW I'm not. I've got a front-row seat to the junk that goes on in my head, and if I live to be 100, I know I'll never get it totally cleaned out. But, I feel happy with who I am because I do keep trying to do better. "Trying to do better" is who I am, even if the garbage stuck in my brain isn't. Of course, me from ten years in the future may say, "To hell with that trying crap. Do or do not. There is no try."

We'll see!

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

If you had a Black Larry and White Larry, Yes. Dumping guilt on a 6-7 year old kid telling him he's racist for saying his friend is black, no.

You're right. I never grew up in a school where I was the only white guy. I grew up in several schools. One where I felt I had to hide my non-white heritage. One where everyone was Spanish and Black, and I was looked on as being one of the few "white" kids there, regardless that I told them I wasn't. One school, was around 80% Black, and Run DMC was in my classes (of course they weren't that group yet. Darryl was quiet and boring while "Run" was the guy most likely to get in trouble, constantly joking around. That's probably why I liked him). At that school, the only good math teacher was a Black man, and the White man was a fucking jerk, who preferred to sit near the pretty girls and make all the guys look stupid. Oh! I'm sorry, I should act properly libitard and apologize for noting any racial differences. That's sooo wrong!

I'm not saying "overjoyed celebration" of differences, but pointedly ignoring racial differences can be just as racial as pointedly pointing them out.

Oh, I have various political friends too, but usually the libitards keep touting their agendas. "Oh, I respect differences, but you should try to be better than you are."

If you're so non-woke, then why did you mention that your girlfriend was black? You should feel ashamed for observing that she was different!!!

Seriously, are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me???



Well, I used to be a libitard, until I saw the red flags and grew past it.

I didn't give straw man arguments, I addressed what you said and you decided to ignore my rationale so you could perceive what you claimant you can't. The one problem with your argument, is, you don't have an argument. You'd prefer to fence sit, to patronize and placate ending with "...but you could be better!"

Yes, children are simple. They speak plainly, and they like what they like, and don't like what they don't like. They are a lot more pure than us. It's when they grow up and learn to speak out the side of their face that they become "adults."

Justifications for something that is not perfect, and never will be. I can live with that. The problem is, you can't. The problem then becomes, you try to make your problem into everyone else's problem.

You'll be content only when language is completely restructured and reiterated into a politically correct diatribe of red tape to justify your feelings of self-flagellation for wrongs you never committed. But language can't be perfected, and you'll go on and on, cycle after cycle; trying to fix what isn't broken and can't be fixed.

Just so this isn't looked upon as being a hijacking, sexual inequalities exist in stories, because all stories personify. Women are bimbo-ized, but guys aren't bimbo-ized into "big dick-fucking machines?" Don't kid yourselves, it goes both ways. If you make stories so milquetoast then much like the "Marvel movies"; you remove the concept of someone has to be right, somebody has to be wrong. You end up with heroes who do bad things and bad guys who "just wanted their own slice of heaven."

The world is what it is. Quit trying to shine the world into something that it isn't. People aren't perfect, they never will be. If libitards are so "accepting of peoples differences" then accept that people are less than "PERFECT," just like story characters. In that regard, stories reflect perfectly on life. Ignoring people's peccadilloes, is the same as ignoring racial differences.

I think you're enjoying yourself far too much for me to disagree with you.

 

[SimonDoom]

Just so this isn't looked upon as being a hijacking, sexual inequalities exist in stories, because all stories personify. Women are bimbo-ized, but guys aren't bimbo-ized into "big dick-fucking machines?" Don't kid yourselves, it goes both ways.

Let's assume you are right about this. I think there is truth to what you are saying here. Sexism, or, perhaps more accurately, sexual stereotypes, can cut both ways.

What do we do about that, as authors?

I think there's a middle ground between 1) We must purge any stereotypical thinking from our stories (something I think nobody, or almost nobody, on this thread actually is arguing), and 2) Just go ahead and perpetuate the stereotypes and don't worry about it.

To me, the alternative or middle ground is to think about what one is doing, and why, without any political preconception about where mindfulness might lead. I don't honestly know. I don't feel guilt about writing or reading stories that might be objected to on someone else's political or moral grounds, whether those grounds are conservative or liberal. But I find myself giving more thought to WHY I gravitate to certain things, what that means, and whether some extra thought or growth might make me a better writer.

For example, as an alternative to the majority of my stories that focus on the female body, I'm working on a story about a guy with a huge penis. But he's not the stereotypical dom/bull who gets all the action. He's embarrassed by how well equipped he is. I'm curious about exploring the erotic potential of a story that starts with this premise but takes it in a different direction. I don't know where it will end up.

 

[Damoiselle]

That's how I feel.

It took me years to sort myself out from the racist garbage I grew up with, and I'm know I can't possibly have purged it all. It's hard to constantly be "at war" when you're a kid, and there were so many compromises. There were too many times I swallowed a load of nastiness because I told myself, "but it's true sometimes," or gratefully accepted it when my parents dialed back the racism just enough to make individual exceptions to it. At least, back then, I thought the exceptions were dialing it back. I realize now that the exceptions are just what happens when stereotypes bump up against reality.

Things like racism are the easiest to try to root out. More insidious are attitudes like thinking less of people if they are less conventionally intelligent. I'm not sure I've ever met an angry person who didn't think they were smarter than most of the people around them. "Common sense" is the phrase that's usually thrown around. I know perfectly well that a person's value isn't in their intelligence, yet I still find myself branding people "idiots" in my head and thinking of them dismissively. Worse, I usually find it hard to regret those thoughts. I've gotten much better about saying things like that, but I don't want that garbage gumming up my brain like it does. I don't want to be that person, but I don't always want it badly enough.

I hope that ten years from now, I look back at my thinking today and realize the shortcomings, because that will mean I've grown. Refusing to change is only a good thing if you're perfect. I'd have to disagree with anyone who thinks they're perfect, but I KNOW I'm not. I've got a front-row seat to the junk that goes on in my head, and if I live to be 100, I know I'll never get it totally cleaned out. But, I feel happy with who I am because I do keep trying to do better. "Trying to do better" is who I am, even if the garbage stuck in my brain isn't. Of course, me from ten years in the future may say, "To hell with that trying crap. Do or do not. There is no try."

We'll see!

The inherent limitations of language are a big obstacle with that kind of thing as well. I used to love the word "dumb." I thought it was understated and condemning at the same time. As I continue, it sort of sinks in that it's origin is a way to describe people who we were mute and we just casually adapted it to talk about low intelligence.

It casually equivocates things that don't actually equivocate, and simultaneously stigmatizes things that I don't want to stigmatize any longer.

Language is just limited. Frustratingly, confusingly so, and there's no easy way to fix that. I think we just need to endure it changing and adapting to new awareness, new discussion and fresh perspectives. I think a lot of the time, these arguments are just people speaking past each other because the implications of words are just different to each person.

I once used the word "patriarchal" super casually on a video game forum like five years ago (a naive sillynoggin still mostly blissfully unaware of gamergate on the horizon), and the backlash! The thing that was hilarious, was at that point I was still religious, not very feminist, and still wishing I had a father figure in my life. "Patriarchal" had almost no negative implications for me at that point (in fact, it had several positive ones), but a lot of the people who were interpreting it negatively were just associating it by default with buzzfeed-corporate-pop feminism where they had heard patriarchy talked about and interpreted the usage as equivalent with like...basically Sauron.

They thought I was calling all men demons essentially. Nothing could have been further from the truth, but my chances of convincing them of that was about zilch? Sometimes, unfortunately, the bridge just can't be built right away. Not until we can meet one another where we are linguistically. Because until then it's like we're speaking different dialects.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Let's assume you are right about this. I think there is truth to what you are saying here. Sexism, or, perhaps more accurately, sexual stereotypes, can cut both ways.

What do we do about that, as authors?

I think there's a middle ground between 1) We must purge any stereotypical thinking from our stories (something I think nobody, or almost nobody, on this thread actually is arguing), and 2) Just go ahead and perpetuate the stereotypes and don't worry about it.

To me, the alternative or middle ground is to think about what one is doing, and why, without any political preconception about where mindfulness might lead. I don't honestly know. I don't feel guilt about writing or reading stories that might be objected to on someone else's political or moral grounds, whether those grounds are conservative or liberal. But I find myself giving more thought to WHY I gravitate to certain things, what that means, and whether some extra thought or growth might make me a better writer.

Well said, Simon.

One thing to keep in mind about stereotypes, of course. This entire site is, let’s be honest, pure Fantasy Island, sex-wise. With a few kinky exceptions, characters are highly sexed and love (or wind up loving) sex. Women don’t have to worry about menstruation or menopause, men never suffer from ED or hair triggers. This whole world is stereotypical, deliberately so. People don’t want to read porn about obese women with PMS or grumpy balding men with BO and skin rashes. Our job as writers is to tailor sexual stereotypes/fantasies to the readers’ tastes.

That’s not criticism, just a statement of reality. All we can really argue about is which stereotypes we like and which ones we as individuals find distasteful.

 

[AlinaX]

I fall under the type who, especially now with all this 'woke' bullshit going on thinks running around telling me about your black, gay, trans, women etc friends is if not racist, just pandering and tokenism...it sure as hell isn't being supportive of their favorite word "empowering"

Sorry, but I don't need to prove to anyone I'm not racist by telling you how many diverse friends I have or running around like a condescending moron yelling "Yay, Black people, I love black people"

Dear gods. What's with all this shit? No one's asking or expecting you to. There's nothing 'woke' about any of that.

I never say "Yeah, my gay friend Gary, or my Muslim friend....people are people and needing to put something in front of the word friend is just a way to try and act self righteous and woke and better than

If I'm telling you about Larry who plays on my dart team, do I need to say "Black Larry?"...

Again. No. Fuck.

Also if you want to really think about something...why is 'colored people" racist...but people of color isn't? Because a bunch of woke jokes coined the term, but they of course can't be racist.

Assumptions, assumptions,... Maybe the answer is to listen to the groups in question about how they like to be described.

Look at superhero movies or other Hollywood remakes. A director looking to get cheap attention picks a black actor./actress to take over a long established role previously white and they go "look how woke I am! Look at this empowerment!"

Or studios who will quite happily shit all over diversity and representation because it doesn't sell?

No, look at your tokenism, look at your cheap copy pasting of one color/gender over another to pander to snowflakes and race baiters....

People who whine about 'woke' snowflakes are usually fascist assholes - are you really on their side?

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Or studios who will quite happily shit all over diversity and representation because it doesn't sell?

I don’t know about that. I think real equality will have arrived when black actors and actresses are cast because they’re seen as the best choices for the roles, not because their skin colour allows another checkmark on a producer’s notebook. That’s too close to tokenism for me to be happy with it. I like Laurence Fishburn, Will Smith and Morgan Freeman because they’re excellent actors, not because of their ancestry.

Don’t get me wrong. It would take me a week to list just the chapter headings of what’s wrong with, for instance, the Oscars. Pointless, out-of-touch, egotistic pocket pool at best. Hollywood has so much wrong with it in general that I barely bother any more. Expecting clear thinking or ethical behaviour from an industry (and every now-oh-so-woke member of it) which tolerated and covered up Harvey Weinstein for years is pointless.

 

[vanmyers86]

This is fascinating reading - thanks, SimonDoom for starting the convo.

A few scattershot thoughts:

On the original subject, yes, I think that sexism and racism are rampant in erotica and porn. If there's anything we as a culture have learned in the last few years, it's that sexism, racism, ageism and other isms still go down very well with large swaths of the public. So a writer who's looking for commercial success may go about choosing character types and situations very deliberately to play to his demographic. If you are practically guaranteed to succeed with Plot A and Cast of Characters B, why would you NOT go there?

Other writers, and I think I'm one of them, tend to write what lights up our individual circuits on some level. For instance, if you put all the men I was ever attracted to in a large room, you would take one look and say, "Yep, she's definitely got a physical type - dark hair and eyes, solidly built, great legs, and not too tall." And if you spoke to them, you'd say, "She definitely likes smart men who are funny and unavailable in some way." And so on. And if you read my stories, you'd see all of this reflected there. But I write for myself, and if other people like what I produce, great. If not, well, try someone else - maybe they're the droid you're looking for.

Over the years, I have also come to believe humans are wired to categorize people instantly - at the most basic, "threat or not a threat" - and in this way, we acquire a long set of preferences and prejudices, often starting in early childhood. This certainly plays a role in what we like to read and watch.

Somewhat off topic: As a young reporter, I was really lucky that my editor asked a friend to come in and talk to the entire newsroom staff about inherent bias. As a woman, I was well-versed in how to look for sexism, but a whole lot less educated in terms of spotting racial bias, especially within myself. My take-aways from that talk last to this day:
1. We are most comfortable talking to, and having friends, who are like ourselves in ways we find important (age, race, gender, politics, etc.)
2. To be a good writer, you'd better know yourself and your biases well enough to overcome them when you choose people to interview and photograph. (Corollary: If you find patterns in interviewees, subject matter, and even word choice, mix it up.)
3. Getting to know people who aren't like you will enrich your life in ways you can't even imagine.
That talk was 25 years ago, and I've worked hard to adopt his ideas, but I still have biases. (For instance, people who choose to remain uneducated when they have the capacity to learn.) And I can attest that some of my most interesting discussions and friendships have been with people who, at least on the surface, were not like me.

Again, thanks for starting this conversation. I'm learning from it.