Sexism in erotic stories

[SamScribble]

You can write the considerate, gentle alternative. Which you do .

Thank you, EB

 

[jaF0]

I guess its like regular porn....is it sexist, is it objectifying women...or can you see it as these women are sex workers doing a job and what a lot of feminists don't seem to want to understand is many women do feel empowered when they're desired.

I see the female performers as the stars, the main draw, the reason people watch. I can name a dozen or more female performers going back to the 70s without even thinking hard, but few if any males.

People traveled long distances to see Gina LaMarca and Teri Weigel.

 

[Damoiselle]

I see the female performers as the stars, the main draw, the reason people watch. I can name a dozen or more female performers going back to the 70s without even thinking hard, but few if any males.

People traveled long distances to see Gina LaMarca and Teri Weigel.

Though Ron Jeremy might be the most famously recognizable name in porn, we're only just finally beginning to get more male performances that cater to the female gaze, and male performers that a lot of women feel like following.

Bellesa.com is a pretty solid source to find porn that runs a broader gamut, and doesn't objectify the female performers as much.

edit: bellesa.co (not bellesa.com)

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Bellesa.com is a pretty solid source to find porn that runs a broader gamut, and doesn't objectify the female performers as much.

Bellesa.com doesn’t seem to work. Please confirm.

 

[Damoiselle]

Bellesa.com doesn’t seem to work. Please confirm.

Sorry, bellesa.co

 

[Bramblethorn]

I accept what you are saying, but for the purposes of discussion...

If a woman says, for instance, "I just love big black cocks!", that's not supposed to be racist,

Actually, it pretty often does involve racism: "I want to be fucked by a savage brute of a guy, and black guys are savage brutes". A lot of the black stud/virginal white girl fetishism comes from the same place.

Again, not saying that interracial sex is bad, only that sometimes people fetishise it for bad reasons.

(Also, framing one's desire in terms of individual body parts rather than people gets cringeworthy real fast.)

I - and I suspect just about every other sexually mature individual on the planet - have an image of an ideal sexual partner floating around in what's left of my brain. That in turn means that, the further any individual is away from that ideal, the less attractive I find them. It doesn't mean that they're bad people or stupid or dirty; it just means that I wouldn't particularly want to wake up in bed with them.

Depends what you mean by "image", really. I have my 'druthers, but they're mostly not about physical attributes, and the physical ones are fairly weak considerations.

 

[NotWise]

Though Ron Jeremy might be the most famously recognizable name in porn, we're only just finally beginning to get more male performances that cater to the female gaze, and male performers that a lot of women feel like following.

Ron Jeremy is just the last (and least) hold-over from the golden age of porn. There were once a lot of good male stars, many of whom are now passed. In no particular order, I can think of:

Jamie Gillis
John Leslie
Richard Pacheco
Paul Thomas
Joey Silvera (who I didn't really like very much)
Kevin James (who I liked a lot, but he died early from testicular cancer)
John Holmes (the first Big Dick, but an idiot)
Eric Edwards (who quit porn because he thought it was a bad example for his kids)

There's another list of four of five French actors that I could add.

Aside from Holmes, these men were mostly known for their ability to act. There were even some movies were they stole the show; "Talk Dirty to Me" is one example. "Nothing to Hide" and "Vista Valley PTA" are two more. It isn't an accident that all of those movies feature Richard Pacheco and/or John Leslie. "The Opening of Misty Beethoven" (and a lot of other movies) would have been much less without Jamie Gillis.

Porn was different then. "Night Dreams" (for instance) was about a woman's sexual fantasies. There were no significant male actors, but there was a good sound track. Wall of Vodoo's cover of "Ring of Fire" (Johnny Cash) accompanying two cowgirls by a campfire is by itself worth the time it takes to watch. "Cafe Flesh" was a post-apocalyptic love story turned tragedy. I think it's also the origin of the term "sex positive."

By contrast, men in porn videos are now pretty much hired for big dicks and expressive grunts. If you don't like that, then find the old stuff. A lot of it (American, French, and Italian) are available now in high definition.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Let's try a different perspective. Can you imagine how someone could hate an entire sex? Like a woman who has felt victimized by men all her life?

By extension, does that mean that all women who became lesbians because they saw ALL men as being womanizers, MUST be 'healed'? That they MUST self examine, and grow?

Noting that this is not, in general, how lesbianism works. Maybe for a few people out there, but the trope that women become lesbians because they've had bad experiences with men is mostly just the usual thing of trying to pathologise anything out of the ordinary.

Years ago, there was this stupid libitard commercial by the Mormons/hlds many years ago. It was a kid with his grandfather in a boat fishing. The kid says his friend called him a racist, and asks what does it mean. The kid's grandfather tells him, then asks "Who is [the friend's name]?" The kid answers "He's my Black friend."

The grandfather says "then you are racist, because you look at him as your Black friend instead of as your friend."

On one level, partly true, as also it's partly false. Recognizing differences between people doesn't mean racism.

It doesn't, and the whole "colourblind" thing is at best unhelpful. It's mostly a way for white people to avoid facing uncomfortable questions like "hey how is it that every single manager at this company is white?" and "ever noticed how the cops are far more willing to shoot black people?"

FWIW, the LDS had a long history of anti-black racism. They only reversed the ban on Black men in the priesthood in 1978. They may well be working to leave that behind them now, but I wouldn't look to them for nuanced and enlightened commentary on this kind of stuff, even where they mean well.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Though Ron Jeremy might be the most famously recognizable name in porn, we're only just finally beginning to get more male performances that cater to the female gaze, and male performers that a lot of women feel like following.

Bellesa.com is a pretty solid source to find porn that runs a broader gamut, and doesn't objectify the female performers as much.

edit: bellesa.co (not bellesa.com)

xconfessions is good too. Also the first place where I've seen videos with performers who just happen to be trans, as opposed to where it's the central fetish of the piece.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

The inherent limitations of language are a big obstacle with that kind of thing as well. I used to love the word "dumb." I thought it was understated and condemning at the same time. As I continue, it sort of sinks in that it's origin is a way to describe people who we were mute and we just casually adapted it to talk about low intelligence.

It casually equivocates things that don't actually equivocate, and simultaneously stigmatizes things that I don't want to stigmatize any longer.

Language is just limited. Frustratingly, confusingly so, and there's no easy way to fix that. I think we just need to endure it changing and adapting to new awareness, new discussion and fresh perspectives. I think a lot of the time, these arguments are just people speaking past each other because the implications of words are just different to each person.

I once used the word "patriarchal" super casually on a video game forum like five years ago (a naive sillynoggin still mostly blissfully unaware of gamergate on the horizon), and the backlash! The thing that was hilarious, was at that point I was still religious, not very feminist, and still wishing I had a father figure in my life. "Patriarchal" had almost no negative implications for me at that point (in fact, it had several positive ones), but a lot of the people who were interpreting it negatively were just associating it by default with buzzfeed-corporate-pop feminism where they had heard patriarchy talked about and interpreted the usage as equivalent with like...basically Sauron.

They thought I was calling all men demons essentially. Nothing could have been further from the truth, but my chances of convincing them of that was about zilch? Sometimes, unfortunately, the bridge just can't be built right away. Not until we can meet one another where we are linguistically. Because until then it's like we're speaking different dialects.

That's a little scary, when you think about how serious GamerGate got. I'm glad the target on your back didn't get more serious. There were women whose lives were wrecked, especially Zoe Quinn. I never saw it coming. I've always preferred to play offline, the only MMOs I ever played were the ones with an offline option. My only interaction with other gamers was at the game store, and at the store, nobody seemed hostile. A little TOO friendly, maybe, but not hostile. It was the most courteous stalking around a store I ever experienced. When you get a creeper trailing you around Walmart or the grocery store, they don't offer to help you with your selections. At least not in my experience. Maybe other people get more courteous Walmart and grocery store creepers.

By the way, tip for the ladies who get a department store creeper and are too freaking tired to do something more active about it: Head to the baby section. I've had it work beautifully even when heading to the feminine hygiene aisle didn't shake them. Diapers are apparently more feared than tampons.

I absolutely agree that linguistic limitations are a problem, although I do think that a lot of the time, they could easily be resolved with a little bit of listening and asking questions. The obvious problem is that some people seem to be looking for opportunities for confrontation.

I'm very dissatisfied with the current state of the lexicon for lots of reasons, but I can't think of how to fix it without taking over the world, and that's just too much responsibility for a person who forgets to water houseplants.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Bellesa.co is a pretty solid source to find porn that runs a broader gamut, and doesn't objectify the female performers as much.

edit: bellesa.co (not bellesa.com)

Nice also because many of the woman are slim, small breasted - or if they have porno big breasted, the click-on pic is clear enough that you can see body types easily. Their two women clips are most enjoyable. It's nice to see pubic hair, too, for a change .

 

[SamScribble]

Removed. Irrelevant.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I think the 'racist' accusation is thrown around too freely.

Many years ago, I was hired by a London-based black guy to write a travel guide to a particularly pretty corner of the South Pacific. We travelled out there, took photographs, made notes, and then returned to town to put it all together. Ross and I got on like the proverbial house on fire, and the project turned out really well. In fact, it won some sort of award.

About a year later, he called me up and asked me if I would be interested in working on another project with him. This time the project involved putting together a glossy booklet to publicise an urban renewal project.

Ross took me on a tour of the yet-to-be-renewed neighbourhood and then, it being a hot afternoon (yes, London does sometimes have them), we ducked into a rather rough-looking pub for a pint. We talked through the project, and then Ross glanced at his watch and said: ‘Geez. I need to get going. I’m supposed to be having supper with my mother tonight. She doesn’t tolerate tardiness.’

‘You blacks boys have all the fun,’ I said. And then I looked around the pub. Mine was the only white face in the place.

‘It’s OK,’ Ross said. ‘The honky is with me.’ And the rest of the drinkers went back to whatever it was that they were having.

Why do I retell this little tale? Well, Ross knew that he was black, and often referred to himself as ‘the black boy’. And I was just as sure that I wasn’t a black boy. Even in the height of summer, I was only slightly off-white. But we got on brilliantly. And on the day that I heard that Ross had died, I cried. I think that I may have also said ‘fuck, fuck, fuck’. In fact, I’m almost sure that I did.

The funny thing is, I don't think anyone in this entire thread called anyone a racist. There are just a lot of people saying, "I'm not racist," or "Don't call me racist," when nobody said anything like that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The funny thing is, I don't think anyone in this entire thread called anyone a racist. There are just a lot of people saying, "I'm not racist," or "Don't call me racist," when nobody said anything like that.

In most cases, I think it's more useful to think of racism as a thing that people do than something they are.

Back when I was a kid, I remember hearing a particularly cruel joke about Yoko Ono, and as kids do I repeated it. I don't think I held any animus towards Japanese people, but the joke was definitely racist and I passed it on. If any Japanese person had heard it... well, the fact that I didn't actually hate them probably wouldn't have made it any less hurtful to them.

And if somebody had called me racist for that one, I probably would've gone defensive, secure in the knowledge that I didn't mean any harm, rather than consider whether I could've acted better.

 

[AlinaX]

The one that really confuses me is 'gypsy'. I can see how it's maybe problematic, but also it doesn't really feel negative to me in the way people use it. The word is far more indicative of a chosen lifestyle than a racial descriptor.

 

[jaF0]

Ron Jeremy is just the last (and least) hold-over from the golden age of porn. There were once a lot of good male stars, many of whom are now passed. In no particular order, I can think of:

Jamie Gillis
John Leslie
Richard Pacheco
Paul Thomas
Joey Silvera (who I didn't really like very much)
Kevin James (who I liked a lot, but he died early from testicular cancer)
John Holmes (the first Big Dick, but an idiot)
Eric Edwards (who quit porn because he thought it was a bad example for his kids)

While I recognize some of those names, I wouldn't have been able to list them even though they worked in the same films as Annette Haven and others.

The one that really confuses me is 'gypsy'.

It isn't that one so much as 'gypped'.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...-gypped-hurts-the-roma-more-than-it-hurts-you

Also:

"The Romani are widely known in English by the exonym Gypsies (or Gipsies), which is considered by some Roma people to be pejorative due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity."

"Because all Romanies use the word Romani as an adjective, the term became a noun for the entire ethnic group."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

 

[Bramblethorn]

Some further discussion on "gypsy" here: https://now.org/blog/the-g-word-isnt-for-you-how-gypsy-erases-romani-women/

There used to be an expression "to jew somebody", meaning to swindle them. It's been beyond the pale for decades now, for obvious reasons, but "gyp" is still around with much the same meaning.

 

[AlinaX]

Interesting links. Thanks.

 

[oggbashan]

Some further discussion on "gypsy" here: https://now.org/blog/the-g-word-isnt-for-you-how-gypsy-erases-romani-women/

There used to be an expression "to jew somebody", meaning to swindle them. It's been beyond the pale for decades now, for obvious reasons, but "gyp" is still around with much the same meaning.

And it isn't necessarily the Romani that cause problems but 'travellers' who are not Romani but give gypsies a bad reputation.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

The one that really confuses me is 'gypsy'. I can see how it's maybe problematic, but also it doesn't really feel negative to me in the way people use it. The word is far more indicative of a chosen lifestyle than a racial descriptor.

I decided to stop trying to decide whether people's objections to terms are "legitimate." If it bothers people to whom the term is applied, it's legitimate. I'm in no position to be the arbiter of that sort of thing.

I don't automatically conclude that someone using an outdated term is necessarily coming from a bad place, though. In the U.S., there's been an evolution of the appropriate racial name for Black people. "African American" used to be preferred over "Black", and now I think Black is the generally accepted preference. I don't think it signals ill-intent if someone hasn't kept up. There's also the problem that even if "Black" is generally preferred, it's not going to be preferred by all Black people, many of whom grew up when only "African American" was appropriate. And of course, those are only the latest names in a long and problematic line of racial descriptors, and after such a long, ugly history of racial epithets, it's important to try to get it right.

I had a harder time applying that principle to gendered pronouns. I would have been fine with the gender-inclusive pronouns like the xe or per sets, but how often do you actually see those? More often, people just substitute "they" for "he" or "she," which is like nails on a chalkboard for me. I absolutely dug in my heels on it for the longest time. There are many times when the use of "they" for a singular does create pronoun confusion, so I had legitimate (but not weighty) reasons.

It took me a shockingly long time to come to the realization that my word choice preferences were not more important than people feeling like they were recognized and included. It's embarrassing now to realize that I was prioritizing grammar over people.

I still hesitate to use "they" rather than "he" for a person of unknown gender in formal writing, such as in a business context. I used to think writing out "he or she" was a good compromise, but then I realized that there are people not covered by that. I've started using "they," but I feel such an irrational dislike of it every time I do. It feels like leaving a pronoun dangling off the end of a clause, which I've also started doing where I think it's appropriate. But, what's the big deal, right? Brains are weird.

 

[AlinaX]

Maybe I'm out of touch, but there seemed to be more variety in pronouns as little as five years ago. These days 'they/them' seems like the common choice. I understand the instinctive dislike of it - we're used to it being a plural - but actually the singular use goes back centuries, and it does often get used as a gender-neutral substitute. I've taken to using it more often, and yes it's sometimes odd, but...

As you say, brains are weird.

 

[Damoiselle]

xconfessions is good too. Also the first place where I've seen videos with performers who just happen to be trans, as opposed to where it's the central fetish of the piece.

Hmm, that makes me think there might have been a collab or something where xconfessions shared a vid on bellesa.

I remember seeing one that was just radiated BDSM themes with a guy I recognize from other porn doing kind of slow fire dance thing, and it was way darker and more cinematic than bellesa's usual stuff. And there was a bunch of transwomen and one domme who didn't even need a whip or anything to show she was a domme. She just radiated it, you know...like if she was walking toward me I would probably just get on the floor just in case she wanted to step on me.

I'll have to find it again and see if it traces back to xconfessions.

 

[jaF0]

And it isn't necessarily the Romani that cause problems but 'travellers' who are not Romani but give gypsies a bad reputation.

In the U.S., they're referred to as the Irish Travelers. Stories come out every few years about bands of them descending on towns are victimizing the residents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers#United_States

 

[jaF0]

Back on point sort of, something recently reminded me of the 70s-80s ad campaign for Enjoli perfume. The print ads just showed pictures and text, but the TV ad became quite well known. A classy blond sings and dances her way through scene changes from the office to the kitchen and beyond. First in an office suit, then casual wear, then an evening or night gown. 'I bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan and never let him forget he's the man'.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/93/98/58/9398587f3a9812f423141bc744829a43--bacon-fries-perfume-ad.jpg

That combination of free spirit, self reliance, yet sensuality is what I shoot for in characters.

 

[oggbashan]

In the U.S., they're referred to as the Irish Travelers. Stories come out every few years about bands of them descending on towns are victimizing the residents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers#United_States

Our travellers are not necessarily Irish. They are sometimes divided into normal and New-Age = hippies.

One of our friend's daughters spent a couple of years as a New Age traveller much to the consternation of her parents. She lived in a commune in an old coach that was uninsured, unroadworthy and no one had an appropriate licence to drive it.

Eventually it was confiscated and destroyed by the police after it broke down irreparably on a major road and the daughter returned home but still lived an unconventional lifestyle..