Sexism in erotic stories

[SimonDoom]

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I'm broadly interested in whether people see some erotica as being "sexist", what kinds of erotica they see as sexist, why they see it that way, and whether it bothers them.

I'm conflicted on the issue, a bit. My general view is that erotica is a fantasy space where people should feel free to indulge their fantasies, even if they involve themes and story ideas that are disturbing, or that involve acts that no reasonable and decent person would want to see happen in real life.

I'm aware that, as a hetero male author, most of my stories in one way or another reflect and embody the "male gaze." I don't really feel bad about that, because we do in fact look at one another as objects of sexual desire and it seems like a fair subject for erotic story-telling. But as a reader I think sometimes stories, to me, go too far: depicting women as so cartoonish or bimboish, or reveling so much in women's degradation, that it seems ridiculous. And yet there are some people who like "bimbo" stories, and there are women who have fantasies about being that way, or about being degraded.

The BTB line of stories has always somewhat bothered me, because the stories, to my mind, inhabit a false fantasy universe where virtuous men are constantly being screwed by evil women and the system that props up these evil women, and there appear to be men who really believe this is the way the world is. I see the stories as sexist at their core, but I imagine some don't.

Throwing this out there. Curious what people think.

 

[KeithD]

The extent of sexism in a story is going to be at the mercy of the sliding scale of the beholder. We just had a demonstration of that in what, if any, the responsibility of persona projection was for someone using the account SlutyMommy here to write incest and Loving Wives stories.

 

[jaF0]

But as a reader I think sometimes stories, to me, go too far: depicting women as so cartoonish or bimboish, or reveling so much in women's degradation, that it seems ridiculous.

I try to do mine as exceptionally attractive, overtly desirable, objects of fantasies, but still with the brains and power to control their own lives. THEY make the decisions.

 

[Damoiselle]

(Hums the melody from Avenue Q) Everyone's a little bit sexist...sometimes.

So.

We live in a society.

And sometimes the negative fallout of the any toxic aspects of that society are going to permeate...most of our stories.


My own writing is informed by my own internalized negativity about my gender.

That said, even for me, who writes some very grim representations about bad things...I've been infuriated when similar explorations are framed in certain ways.


Namely when it involves gaslighting. There's a common trend in "dark romance" --Which for the record, is typically written by women and for women, where the person in a dysfunctional relationship with all the power perceives themselves as a martyr in some way, and the text seems neutral to sympathetic towards that mindset.

It is staggeringly common for a guy to kidnap a woman he wants in these kinds of stories, and feel sorry for himself when she's angry at him for it.


I understand that some people would condemn the existence of a romance story that involves kidnapping in the first place, and I respect that, but where I become disgusted is when that kind of pity party is treated as normal or in any way reasonable.


I think actual sexism is in the framing.

 

[AlinaX]

There are authors who clearly have sexist attitudes that inevitably come across in stories. The BTB crowd, I guess, and transphobia stands out often as well, but there are other stories where the women are little more than caricatures.

Some fantasies are deeply creepy - time-stop, for example, where people are literally reduced to sex objects. Bimboification and dollification to a lesser extent. Hucow... But even these more extreme fantasies don't need to be sexist. The author just needs to treat the characters with respect.

This is a recurring problem with Mind Control stories. The main character will have some power to manipulate people, often resulting in a very childish fantasy of absolute control over people who are little more than shallow cyphers.

I myself enjoy bimboification and dollification and transformation erotica generally, but have no interest in stories where a woman *is* a mindless bimbo/doll/whatever. I want to see intelligence.

 

[Maeven_quinn]

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I'm broadly interested in whether people see some erotica as being "sexist", what kinds of erotica they see as sexist, why they see it that way, and whether it bothers them.

Sexism, Racism, Capitalism etc can all be injected and layered into erotica as with anything else.

There's sexists tropes I find eye-rollingly intolerable. There's others that worked well in the past, but I wouldn't want to read in anything new. There's a difference between including a sexist character, with even a sexist point of view, and writing a sexist book.

The one trope I dislike strongly are the "Revenge of the Nerd" type tropes, or anything that presents stalker behavior as romantic, endearing, or silly. I will rage quit if I start reading something like that, with rare exception.

Now typing that, I'm fully aware that someone has read something I've written and cringed at it to, and I've probably internalized some kind of sexist trope of my own. This happens to all authors, and it's okay to admit that. It shouldn't be any harder to accept that criticism than something as benign as "Hey your character doesn't have a good motivator here." or "This villian isn't quite convincing. Why should we hate him?"

I'm conflicted on the issue, a bit. My general view is that erotica is a fantasy space where people should feel free to indulge their fantasies, even if they involve themes and story ideas that are disturbing, or that involve acts that no reasonable and decent person would want to see happen in real life.

Writing fantasy, imho, doesn't eliminate or mitigate sexism anymore than any other type of fiction. We all inherit ideas about our genders, our expectations, and what we think sex should be like. They inevitably come out in our stories.

I'm aware that, as a hetero male author, most of my stories in one way or another reflect and embody the "male gaze." I don't really feel bad about that, because we do in fact look at one another as objects of sexual desire and it seems like a fair subject for erotic story-telling. But as a reader I think sometimes stories, to me, go too far: depicting women as so cartoonish or bimboish, or reveling so much in women's degradation, that it seems ridiculous. And yet there are some people who like "bimbo" stories, and there are women who have fantasies about being that way, or about being degraded.

I think if you know your gaze, that's that good. I think if you know that you're writing bimbo stories, that some people will enjoy, and others will cringe at that, than that's okay too. You know what you're doing and you know your audience.

Hopefully, your audience is conscious of the affect it could have on the world. Hopefully they know "women aren't actually like this. I have no right to treat them as if they are."

Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling too.

The BTB line of stories has always somewhat bothered me, because the stories, to my mind, inhabit a false fantasy universe where virtuous men are constantly being screwed by evil women and the system that props up these evil women, and there appear to be men who really believe this is the way the world is. I see the stories as sexist at their core, but I imagine some don't.

Throwing this out there. Curious what people think.

What's a BTB line of story? This sounds interesting

 

[jaF0]

What's a BTB line of story? This sounds interesting

Burn the Bitch. Revenge against cheating wives in LW. Only miserable bastards go that route.

 

[jaF0]

Some fantasies are deeply creepy - time-stop, for example, where people are literally reduced to sex objects. Bimboification and dollification to a lesser extent. Hucow... But even these more extreme fantasies don't need to be sexist. The author just needs to treat the characters with respect.

There used to be a form of modeling (maybe still is) where a live model would strike a pose and 'freeze' -- remain stark still for a period of time. Basically a live doll or mannequin. I had a thing for a story about a person hiring one to do the routine with the agreement of going beyond what would normally be acceptable in public.

Then there was the movie 'Mannequin' with Kim Cattrall that could have gone further than it did if it wasn't PG.

 

[AlinaX]

Then there was the movie 'Mannequin' with Kim Cattrall that could have gone further than it did if it wasn't PG.

She's my hero...

 

[NotWise]

I've seen some poor character development that might be considered sexist. I'm not sure where you draw the line between sexism and poor writing.

 

[Maeven_quinn]

Burn the Bitch. Revenge against cheating wives in LW. Only miserable bastards go that route.

Yeah... okay I admit that premise does come off as rather sexist.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

... But as a reader I think sometimes stories, to me, go too far: depicting women as so cartoonish or bimboish, or reveling so much in women's degradation, that it seems ridiculous. And yet there are some people who like "bimbo" stories, and there are women who have fantasies about being that way, or about being degraded.

The BTB line of stories has always somewhat bothered me, because the stories, to my mind, inhabit a false fantasy universe where virtuous men are constantly being screwed by evil women and the system that props up these evil women, and there appear to be men who really believe this is the way the world is. I see the stories as sexist at their core, but I imagine some don't.

Throwing this out there. Curious what people think.

Honestly, it just screams "bad writing" to me, maybe along the lines of NotWise's comment. LW, which I view as the home as the BTB story, is a category I don't even check anymore and haven't for a long time. I mention this by way of disclaimer, since I haven't seen what's currently being published there except for what's showed up in the Story Feedback forum.

When I used to check the LW category, "cartoonish" is a perfect description of the characters in a lot of the stories. I'm not saying it's not possible to have a well-written BTB story, but I never saw one. (Nor would I want to.) I think the one-dimensional characters are the a product of the fact that they are nothing but avatars of an inherently shallow concept. At least as far as the BTB female lead is concerned, any sort of character development is antithetical to their purpose in the story. It's hard for a writer to make a character into a real person when the character's purpose is to act as a prop.

I apologize in advance to those I will offend with my next comment, but I found a lot of the cuckhold stories to suffer from the same problem to a lesser degree. Even when the female lead is treated sympathetically, she often just seems like the author's sex toy, carrying out the author's fantasies without sufficient motivation of her own. The motivation provided is generally just simple lust. Women certainly act at times out of simple lust, but lust alone is something that's easily satisfied without bringing in the complication and risk of another man. That wouldn't apply in the case of swingers or couples with other open marriage arrangements, but those aren't really cuckhold stories in my opinion.

For a believable character to do what a lot of the LW women do, the motivation needs to be lust and ______. Just about anything can be in that blank. It might be exhibitionism, a desire to be humiliated, a desire to top, a need to feed the ego, a resentment of the husband, revenge, a fetish, etc. At a bare minimum, merely establishing that it is a long held fantasy makes it more believable, even if it doesn't add dimension. Unless it's an open marriage, there needs to be some motivation for the characters to engage in extramarital sexual activities. People do it all the time, but not just because they got horny all of a sudden, unless there's a reason they can't satisfy that lust with their partner. (At least I don't think they do.)

I realize others people would disagree with this, but to me, that's what creates the cartoonishness and the flatness. If the reader can't understand why the character is doing what they're doing, it's kind of like the written equivalent of bad internet porn. The characters are just performing sexual acts. There's certainly readership for that sort of thing. I think, though, that the female characters written this way are just like the women in the bad internet porn. They're just there to act out a fantasy, and not to be real people.

I think actual sexism is in the framing.

I think that's the key. When a character treats another character in a demeaning or sexist manner, it doesn't make the story demeaning or sexist. Writing a story about a murder doesn't make the story pro-murder. It's when the story treats that sexist behavior sympathetically when the story itself becomes sexist. The effect of treating it sympathetically seems dramatically different to me when it's done deliberately by an author exploring "dark" emotions and desires, as opposed to an author who unintentionally treats the behavior sympathetically. When it appears to be unintentional, one suspects it is a reflection of the author.

I think it's a real challenge to write a character who's basically a misogynistic asshole and write him in a way that shows that character's point of view without validating it. Showing the his thoughts is likely to include his rationalization, self-justification, and the dreaded pity party. I feel that in most contexts, the character's thoughts need to be presented neutrally. Otherwise, it becomes moralistic and the author's point of view feels oppressive.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this, but I'm broadly interested in whether people see some erotica as being "sexist", what kinds of erotica they see as sexist, why they see it that way, and whether it bothers them.

There's a huge misogynist, homophobic, transphobic underbelly on Lit which I find ugly, so I just stay away from those categories where it's found most. If I find it in stories, I stop reading. I consider that stuff sexist, not sexual, and certainly not erotic.

I'm sure our writing always reveals us, our attitudes, our beliefs; so it's reasonable to assume we each get the audience who reflects that back at us.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

The extent of sexism in a story is going to be at the mercy of the sliding scale of the beholder.

Bingo.

Moreover, the definition of ‘sexism’ is on a second and equally subjective sliding scale. One could, with the right definition, make a case for Harlequin Romances or ‘chick flicks’ being sexist.

Make any assumption about human sexuality and it’s going to offend somebody these days. Rule 34 says that anything can be erotic to somebody, but Rule 34a holds that, no matter what topic you find sexy, some other person will find deeply, darkly offensive. There is a lot of scope in Lit and I find it hard to believe that there’s anybody so broad-minded that they don’t find at least some of the half-million stories here disturbing.

Sorry, I acknowledge the validity of the question, but it’s just not something I can generate any strong feelings about. If it offends, look elsewhere.

 

[lovecraft68]

Burn the Bitch. Revenge against cheating wives in LW. Only miserable bastards go that route.

Yeah, I agree, I think most misogyny seems to reside in that category, even Non con has a different sort of angle to it, than that clubhouse full of angry incels.

 

[lovecraft68]

I guess its like regular porn....is it sexist, is it objectifying women...or can you see it as these women are sex workers doing a job and what a lot of feminists don't seem to want to understand is many women do feel empowered when they're desired.

I think there is no real answer here except to go by your own moral compass. If you're writing something you feel comes across that way and you don't like it, change it.

If you're reading a story that makes you feel that way, then to you it is sexist, and you don't need to read it if it offends you.

Ask ten people to read the same story and ask if its sexist, you're going to get both yays and nays because unless its deliberately blatant, a lot of it is opinion.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

Yeah... okay I admit that premise does come off as rather sexist.

Agreed, as does the (rarer, I think) opposite, burn the bastard. It’s POSSIBLE imo to write either as a reasonable reaction to an unreasonable situation, but again imo that’s quite rare. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I guess its like regular porn....is it sexist, is it objectifying women...or can you see it as these women are sex workers doing a job and what a lot of feminists don't seem to want to understand is many women do feel empowered when they're desired...

I think that's true, but in the case of porn, it's the actors themselves who may (or may not) feel empowered, not necessarily the character, whose empowerment is entirely story-dependent. In written form, there is only the character. If the story's written so that the character is empowered by what she's doing, I'm not sure anyone would be asking whether it was sexist. If the story's written so that the character's just a prop without any particular enjoyment in being a prop, then I think it's a valid question.

Just because it's a valid question doesn't mean it should or shouldn't be written. It's just something to think about.

 

[RetroFan]

I write many of my stories set in the past, so will write themes or characters expressing opinions into the story that would appear sexist now.

For example, in my story 'April Leads Julie Astray' which is set in 1963, the main protagonist Julie is most puzzled by a boy she grew up with, who when they were younger and in junior high had complained to her that he didn't want to do woodwork, metalwork and mechanical workshop with the boys, but cooking, sewing and typing with her and the other girls. Julie thinks all this is very strange, knowing that girls do cooking, sewing and typing and boys do woodwork, metalwork and workshop, and that's the way it is.

If an 18-year-old girl thought like that today it would be an anachronism and if an American high school only permitted girls to do these 'female' subjects and the boys 'male' subjects then social media would go into meltdown, but with the story taking place so many years ago it reflects how people thought back then and helps place the story into its past setting.

 

[SimonDoom]

Then there was the movie 'Mannequin' with Kim Cattrall that could have gone further than it did if it wasn't PG.

I'm with you on this one. That was a thoroughly uninteresting 80s movie, but it had real potential as an erotic story -- potential the silly movie did not explore. Kim Catrall is a super sexy actress and could have done a lot more with a better fleshing out of the concept.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm aware that, as a hetero male author, most of my stories in one way or another reflect and embody the "male gaze." I don't really feel bad about that, because we do in fact look at one another as objects of sexual desire and it seems like a fair subject for erotic story-telling. But as a reader I think sometimes stories, to me, go too far: depicting women as so cartoonish or bimboish, or reveling so much in women's degradation, that it seems ridiculous. And yet there are some people who like "bimbo" stories, and there are women who have fantasies about being that way, or about being degraded.

For me, a big part of it is what the author writes as fantasy vs. what they write because that's how they view reality. I am far less bothered by people who write and read NC, knowing that it's a fantasy and that real NC is wrong, than with people who write women as stereotypes because that's how they think of them.

The BTB line of stories has always somewhat bothered me, because the stories, to my mind, inhabit a false fantasy universe where virtuous men are constantly being screwed by evil women and the system that props up these evil women, and there appear to be men who really believe this is the way the world is. I see the stories as sexist at their core, but I imagine some don't.

Yeah, I haven't read much in LW so I may be judging unfairly, but I do get the impression that many of those stories are fictional expressions of real misogyny, catering to readers who feel the same.

 

[SamScribble]

I think that a lot of – shall we say ‘lesser’ – erotica is written by men for men. In the stories these chaps pen, men are the stars. Men make things happen. The women who the male writers make things happen to are often little more than a passing parade of body parts. And if that’s not sexist, I’m not sure what is.

But what can I do about it? I can choose not to read such stories. But that is about it. I can’t ‘correct’ them. And if Laurel chose not to publish them, the site would probably lose half of its readers. Just saying (as they say).

 

[ElectricBlue]

But what can I do about it? I can choose not to read such stories. But that is about it. I can’t ‘correct’ them. And if Laurel chose not to publish them, the site would probably lose half of its readers.

You can write the considerate, gentle alternative. Which you do .

 

[HordHolm]

I think it comes down to agency. Are the characters in their situations through their own decision making processes, or are they there to confirm to someone else's needs/desire/agency? If the former, then it's their choice and no matter how much we may not like it there are grounds for accepting it. If the latter then it can attract all sorts of 'isms' as labels, and reasonably so.

Of course, a complicating factor is desire, and the hindbrain can be a tricky little sod, confounding all attempts at rationality. For example, I recall a friend of mine, many years ago, being (in my view) justifiably furious when he was accused of racism because he admitted that, on the whole, he doesn't fancy black girls (and he said at the time there were one or two he did find hot). Now, I know the man and whilst he might be politically to the right on many issues, he would go to the wall in the fight against racism. But that doesn't mean he has to find a group of people attractive or want to engage in intimate relationships with them. Is he then homophobic for being straight?

 

[GroverLang]

I love ladies

I try to do mine as exceptionally attractive, overtly desirable, objects of fantasies, but still with the brains and power to control their own lives. THEY make the decisions.

I’ve got stories in eight categories (I’m including my ts stories) and the requirement for them is the ladies must, at a minimum, be attractive to the opposite sex and ranging up to the absolutely gorgeous even, as in one instance, when she was a sociopath. I adore the female sex and couldn’t imagine writing a story about a woman who isn’t attractive unless it was an erotic version of the Ugly Duckling.