"Self-Made Man" a book by Norah Vincent

[Huckleman2000]

I've seen this woman on several shows over the last few days. Yeah, I need to get out more.

Some other interesting comments she's made include:
-She was amazed at how much control women really have over men.
-The feminist movement has somewhat freed women from traditional gender roles, but the same cannot be said of men.

My own reaction was, "You mean this isn't obvious?!"

In talking with my (female) therapist about my relationship with my (very successful) ex-wife, she has mentioned that successful women have real problems with intimacy. And I don't think this was 'analyst-speak' to build trust in the relationship. I've been through several therapists, male and female, and I think I have a good sense of when they're speaking ex cathedra or not. Consider Maureen Dowd's recent anti-male book which questions whether men are needed or not, since they all seem to come up short for her hyper-successful class, and therefore it's the fault of her younger retro-feminist nouveau-bimbo ungrateful-to-their-elders sisters that there are no men left for them.

You mean it's beneath your dignity to marry a "trophy husband"? You think you can have an all-consuming career and attract someone that isn't primarily interested in taking advantage of the fruits of that while being satisfied with the sporadic relationship that is the inevitable consequence of pursuit of a career over a relationship? And the answer to that is to attack those that are willing to trade on their physical attractiveness for a less-than-full partnership?

Welcome to my world...

 

[Norajane]

I've seen this woman on several shows over the last few days. Yeah, I need to get out more.

Some other interesting comments she's made include:
-She was amazed at how much control women really have over men.
-The feminist movement has somewhat freed women from traditional gender roles, but the same cannot be said of men.

My own reaction was, "You mean this isn't obvious?!"

Interesting - what kind of control was she talking about?

 

[Huckleman2000]

Interesting - what kind of control was she talking about?

Control over the course of the relationship. It's the flip side of her observation that men put up with a level of rejection that seems difficult to comprehend.

Men have to put forth a confident, yet controlled, persona to gain trust of a woman. There's a fine line between 'wimpy', 'confident', 'intrusive' and 'potentially dangerous' that varies greatly from woman to woman. Apparently, the easiest solution is for a man to choose one and see what he attracts. There are plenty of women who think they can persuade a man one direction or another, and so the relationship becomes a hormonally-charged tug-of-war.

[edit to add] God forbid you should send conflicting (i.e., more complex) signals...

 

[Belegon]

I know for a fact that I am more open with my feelings than many men...and I still have that need to "crank them down" and "stay in control"...

The anonymity of Lit actually has led to me saying out loud some things I would have a much harder time saying in person, even in a private conversation...and I certainly have said some things here I would never feel comfortable saying in the same size group in a banquet hall.

I allow myself to shed a tear on occasion, even...but notice the language. It's important. I allow it. To cry freely in an honest release? Even in utter privacy? 1990. My grandfather died and my fiancee ran off with another man while he was on his deathbed. and even then I used a large amount of high proof lubricant to reach that point.

BTW, it's not even about a woman saying they are comfortable with me expressing emotion. It's my impulse to hide it and to control it. From even myself. But I'll sure as hell be less reluctant to reach a point of strong expressed emotion in private with a trusted woman than I will around another dude.

I can even tell my Dad I love him. In public even...and I give hugs...real ones. And I guarantee you that is progress from the way I felt about it twenty years ago.

 

[Norajane]

Control over the course of the relationship. It's the flip side of her observation that men put up with a level of rejection that seems difficult to comprehend.

Men have to put forth a confident, yet controlled, persona to gain trust of a woman. There's a fine line between 'wimpy', 'confident', 'intrusive' and 'potentially dangerous' that varies greatly from woman to woman. Apparently, the easiest solution is for a man to choose one and see what he attracts. There are plenty of women who think they can persuade a man one direction or another, and so the relationship becomes a hormonally-charged tug-of-war.

[edit to add] God forbid you should send conflicting (i.e., more complex) signals...

I keep hearing how women have all this control over relationships, but I'm not sure that I see it in real life. Perhaps once a man has committed himself to a woman and a relationship, a woman has influence and he might compromise in order to please her. But I would say the same applies to his influence upon her, and her compromises to please him.

 

[Norajane]

I know for a fact that I am more open with my feelings than many men...and I still have that need to "crank them down" and "stay in control"...

The anonymity of Lit actually has led to me saying out loud some things I would have a much harder time saying in person, even in a private conversation...and I certainly have said some things here I would never feel comfortable saying in the same size group in a banquet hall.

I allow myself to shed a tear on occasion, even...but notice the language. It's important. I allow it. To cry freely in an honest release? Even in utter privacy? 1990. My grandfather died and my fiancee ran off with another man while he was on his deathbed. and even then I used a large amount of high proof lubricant to reach that point.

BTW, it's not even about a woman saying they are comfortable with me expressing emotion. It's my impulse to hide it and to control it. From even myself. But I'll sure as hell be less reluctant to reach a point of strong expressed emotion in private with a trusted woman than I will around another dude.

I can even tell my Dad I love him. In public even...and I give hugs...real ones. And I guarantee you that is progress from the way I felt about it twenty years ago.

Thanks, Bel.

But what do you guys DO with all that emotional energy that isn't expressed? It's there, so how do you sublimate or disperse it? Is that where sports and beating each up comes in?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Unfortunately, I don't. It was just 5 minutes at the tail end of one of those cable politics shows. I do want to get the book, though, so I'll let you know what I discover.

She did talk about the urinal situation, and how wierd it is that something that's usually private is done out in the open like that. She added that men do sort of try to hide things a bit when they pee...

Are you looking at ME?!

I wonder what she would have thought about the trough type urinal or the gutter.

 

[Norajane]

I wonder what she would have thought about the trough type urinal or the gutter.

She said she used the stalls when she went in there, but didn't mention anything about troughs and gutters.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleman2000
Control over the course of the relationship. It's the flip side of her observation that men put up with a level of rejection that seems difficult to comprehend.

Men have to put forth a confident, yet controlled, persona to gain trust of a woman. There's a fine line between 'wimpy', 'confident', 'intrusive' and 'potentially dangerous' that varies greatly from woman to woman. Apparently, the easiest solution is for a man to choose one and see what he attracts. There are plenty of women who think they can persuade a man one direction or another, and so the relationship becomes a hormonally-charged tug-of-war.

[edit to add] God forbid you should send conflicting (i.e., more complex) signals...

I keep hearing how women have all this control over relationships, but I'm not sure that I see it in real life. Perhaps once a man has committed himself to a woman and a relationship, a woman has influence and he might compromise in order to please her. But I would say the same applies to his influence upon her, and her compromises to please him.

It's inevitable that men would put up with a much higher level of rejection than women. It's mostly men who put themselves on the line to be rejected. The norm is for men to ask women to dance, for a date, to marry them, etc. And, when the women reject them, they just suck it up and go on. At least, most men do.

Women pretty much control the relatonship too. As far as sex goes, the man wants it right away but if she doesn't, he waits until he is willing. He will go places with her that don't interest him, such as a play, but will not expect her to go to a baseball game with him, unless she happens to be a fan. If she dislikes a certain kind of food, they don't go to that kind of restaurant. Most men don't really like to dance but they do it because their women like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.

 

[Belegon]

Thanks, Bel.

But what do you guys DO with all that emotional energy that isn't expressed? It's there, so how do you sublimate or disperse it? Is that where sports and beating each up comes in?

actually, I would say yes...and yeah, I got in the occassional fight. And most of y'all know I'm an ex-jock. Nah, fuck that...I'm an old jock. I still am one, I just can't do it as well anymore and they refuse to pay me or send me to school for it now

 

[Boxlicker101]

She said she used the stalls when she went in there, but didn't mention anything about troughs and gutters.

Neither type is all that common. A trough is a narrow tub that is fastened to a wall and has a flush handle on one end and a drain on the other. Men stand next to each other and pee, although they avoid getting too close.

A gutter is an area of tile and between the tile and the wall is a shallow gutter. Water constantly runs along the gutter and the men step up to it and pee. It's sort of like standing on a dock or in a boat and pissing into the water.

 

[Norajane]

It's inevitable that men would put up with a much higher level of rejection than women. It's mostly men who put themselves on the line to be rejected. The norm is for men to ask women to dance, for a date, to marry them, etc. And, when the women reject them, they just suck it up and go on. At least, most men do.

Women are rejected too, and not only in cases where they make the move. They are pre-rejected, so to speak, by men not asking them out in the first place. They also put themselves on the line by showing up and might never be asked to dance, for a date, or to marry. And they have to suck it up and go on as well. I don't believe that's less difficult than asking someone out and being rejected. I've done all of the above and neither situation is better than the other.

Women pretty much control the relatonship too. As far as sex goes, the man wants it right away but if she doesn't, he waits until he is willing.

Sex is not a relationship. Determining when a woman feels comfortable letting another person into her body is not her exerting her control - it's her making a choice about something very personal. That men see it as a form of control is because that's how they use it. They might date until they get the sex and then walk away. Or walk away if the sex doesn't happen soon enough. Or have sex with others. I'm not saying women don't use it to control, but it goes both ways.

He will go places with her that don't interest him, such as a play, but will not expect her to go to a baseball game with him, unless she happens to be a fan. If she dislikes a certain kind of food, they don't go to that kind of restaurant. Most men don't really like to dance but they do it because their women like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.

She will go places that don't interest her, such as the Auto Show, but will not expect him to go shopping with her, unless he happens to like shopping. If he dislikes a certain kind of food, she doesn't make it for dinner. A lot of women don't like to go camping , but they do it because their men like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.


I'm not trying to argue with you, Box, I'm just pointing out that, as I see it, men and women share control and compromise for each other.

 

[Huckleman2000]

A case study:

Several years ago, I visited a colleague in NYC that I had hit it off quite well with at a previous company conference. We were peers, in different practices, so it wasn't loaded with harassment overtones. I was coming to NYC early to take advantage of Saturday-stay-over plane fares, so I had a couple of weekend days to play with. She took the liberty to plan the weekend with various activities, some of which cost for tickets, etc. Early in the visit, we had a brief chat about 'sensitive guys', and she said that they were good, except in the instance when they were bad. I sort of understood what she meant. She, on the other hand, wore a piece of headgear that made her look ridiculous, although she said it was warm. It was a test of some sort, of course. She had a bad bite problem, and was preparing for surgery that would break her jaw and probably change her appearance somewhat. She was not unattractive as it was, but I'm sure it was a residual sore point, if not mentioned.

It started out fine - we went to a show, had meals together, etc. Since she had made the entertainment arrangements (and wanted them to be a surprise), she had paid for tickets, etc. in advance. I picked up the check for meals, since she had got the tickets, and these were (mostly) expensable if I had a receipt. But, since my share of the expenses were partly expensable, it soon became apparent that she somehow resented the discrepency between her purchases and mine. Never mind that she had made all the arrangements and withheld them from me to surprise me, and that the issue of payment had not been raised at all, except that I was there mostly on the company dime for room and board.

Women: If you were in my situation, what would you expect as to 'going dutch' on the entertainment? Bear in mind, she probably earned more than I did at the time, which was close to a six-figure income. the show tickets were in the $35-50 range. We're not talking about a Broadway show or a Rainbow Room evening.

So, we stopped at a liquor store to pick up some wine for a party we were going to in Harlem, and she was wondering whether to get one bottle or two, and I said something like "well, we'll probably drink two anyway", and that seemed to piss her off. Over an $8 bottle of wine, which was for a party we were going to with all her friends and acquaintances, which I had no choice over and she planned.

So, what's the deal?? She does the inviting and planning and everything, and makes it a surprise, and then gets pissed when I don't immediately offer to pay half on everything she planned? I never would have expected her to pay if the shoe were on the other foot, and I would have made an effort to pick up the food tabs too.

But, the complicating factor was her upcoming facial surgery. She was telling me about how she was pressuring her doctors into going forward with the procedure, and how she was tired of the preparatory retainers and such, and how she told them that it was an issue that complicated her relationships and all... I said, with some incredulity, 'It's not as though you're grotesque or something!' For Christ's sake, she was an attractive woman!

By Monday morning, I was persona non grata.

She drove me to the office, by pre-arrangement. But the whole ride she played Pink Floyd at near-ear-splitting levels. Not that that's a bad thing...

so, mid afternoon on a Monday, I sent her an email. The subject line was 'AHHHHHHIIIIII...' and the body was "...am comfortably numb'.

That's hilarious. I could barely keep from cracking up writing the thing. I tell this story, and people lose it. Who does not think that's funny?!

I get the reply, "What? Do you need something?"

Fuck me.

 

[rgraham666]

Your story about your father made me think - my father was so very stoic, I only saw him weep once, when he was burying our dog that he had found shot dead beside the road. Seeing him cry was terrible, especially at that young age.

My brother and I are so unlike that. We were never told "Real men don't cry" but being from a stoic German family, it was just not done. The women in our family don't cry.

It was only after our dad died, and I grew older, that I had the realization that I didn't want to be like him. I didn't want to be bitter and closed off from the ones I loved. My brother and I both know that we have the tendency to be like our father if we're not careful, but we both make the effort not to be that way. I saw what happened to my father - he closed himself off to love, and he was never happy. I will never be that way.

This is something I can identify with all too well.

I learned from my father that there was only one allowable emotion for a man to show, fury. He's the only person I now who watches the news to be made angry by it.

I've struggled with it for years. A great deal of my mental illness is because the anger ate at me. And having no outlets for any of my other emotions didn't do me a lot of good either.

It's one of the main reasons I like men better than women as a rule.

 

[Guest]

Sex is not a relationship.

Brilliant in the simplicity and profundity combined. I feel like embroidering it on my knickers.

Perdita

 

[hugo_sam]

Women are rejected too, and not only in cases where they make the move. They are pre-rejected, so to speak, by men not asking them out in the first place. They also put themselves on the line by showing up and might never be asked to dance, for a date, or to marry. And they have to suck it up and go on as well. I don't believe that's less difficult than asking someone out and being rejected. I've done all of the above and neither situation is better than the other.

Sex is not a relationship. Determining when a woman feels comfortable letting another person into her body is not her exerting her control - it's her making a choice about something very personal. That men see it as a form of control is because that's how they use it. They might date until they get the sex and then walk away. Or walk away if the sex doesn't happen soon enough. Or have sex with others. I'm not saying women don't use it to control, but it goes both ways.

She will go places that don't interest her, such as the Auto Show, but will not expect him to go shopping with her, unless he happens to like shopping. If he dislikes a certain kind of food, she doesn't make it for dinner. A lot of women don't like to go camping , but they do it because their men like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.

I'm not trying to argue with you, Box, I'm just pointing out that, as I see it, men and women share control and compromise for each other.

NoraJane

I do not want to argue with you either, but I have issues with what you say/describe.

I am not speaking of the ladies/females of lit/AH but from personal experience in RL

I do not doubt the validity of your statements. However you have left out a few things. Men do not ask or 'pre-reject' as you put it because far more often than not they are risking be rejected by a woman. They are usually facing rejection voiced by one that covers a whole group. While men do group, it has been my experience that they meet/ask in single (i.e. not as a group) status. Most of the time they are facing a 'group' of friends. In essence they are risking rejection by more than one at any given time. Even in a relationship they face arguments covering 'my girlfriends' not her opinion alone.

As far as control, the number of women that I have met in a personal type/dating scenario that do not actively use sex as a control would probably not fill up the fingers of one hand. The number that did actively use it as a method of control would have multiple zeros following the number.
On the compromise subject. Again, in my experience men are 100% EXPECTED to partcipate in all things that the woman wants and expected to act like they enjoy it and voice no opjections of any kind. Mostly I would say DEMANDED. Having the woman participate or attend the man's activity was at the very MOST a Huge FAVOR to the man and was accompanied by it being made clearly continually and repeatedly that it is a favor that will be repaid 10 fold.

Of course the definition of compromise varies: to me it means a give and take reaching a mutually agreeable solution somewhere in the middle. 99+% of the woman I have known in any Dating/relationship type of situation compromise means doing it 100% her way every and all times.

That this does not apply to you makes you a delightful find for some lucky guy/girl. That your very open attitude is any kind of norm, in my experience, it is the diametric opposite.

Again, I would not apply this to the ladies/females of lit and it is based solely on personal experience in RL.

JMHO

Hugo

 

[Belegon]

I think this might be a good time to point out that the audience being dealt with here is clearly not the same one faced in many bars on Saturday night.

I would be highly impressed with any woman, or man if I was into that, who espressed themselves as clearly, openly and honestly as we tend to in this forum. I don't want to sound elitist but I think we are above the mean in education and intelligence.

The very nature of this group as writers indicates this. We are prone to being better read and better at actually putting our feelings into words then many others out there.

 

[Huckleman2000]

NoraJane

I do not want to argue with you either, but I have issues with what you say/describe.....
.....Again, I would not apply this to the ladies/females of lit and it is based solely on personal experience in RL.

JMHO

Hugo

Those Bud Light commercials with the 'daredevil' who goes shopping with his girlfriend, during the playoffs, aren't popular because they insult women. They're popular because lots of men identify with them. And, really, it's pretty pitiful that somehow, shopping during the playoffs should be seen as anything other than an unreasonable intrusion on a man's personal interests.

 

[hugo_sam]

Those Bud Light commercials with the 'daredevil' who goes shopping with his girlfriend, during the playoffs, aren't popular because they insult women. They're popular because lots of men identify with them. And, really, it's pretty pitiful that somehow, shopping during the playoffs should be seen as anything other than an unreasonable intrusion on a man's personal interests.

As a side note H
To get me watch a sporting event at any time of the year, playoffs or not, would involve massive kicking, screaming and fighting. I realize I am in a minority that probably would not break single digits, but watching sports on tv has never been an issue with me.

 

[Huckleman2000]

As a side note H
To get me watch a sporting event at any time of the year, playoffs or not, would involve massive kicking, screaming and fighting. I realize I am in a minority that probably would not break single digits, but watching sports on tv has never been an issue with me.

I certainly don't mean to imply that any one of the posters and/or lurkers here represents the statistical 'norm'.

Quite the contrary! I think that folks here, male female and quadruped (you know who you are...), represent a generally open-minded and civil sort that is unusual in online communities, especially.

I didn't mean to imply that you personally had the Bud-Light experience, merely that there are parallels between the experiences implied in the commercials and what you described from your own dating experience. The appeal isn't that all men are sports fans, it's that all men are familiar with doing things they have no interest in to please their partners or live up to the unspoken expectations.

Just as you don't care for sporting events, I actually like to go shopping for some things. Art or antiques, especially when I'm in an area or circumstance where I'd like something to remember it by, are very special to me. I don't like to put things on my walls that don't have some personal significance to me. A crummy piece of art that has personal significance is more important to me than some 'important' piece whose value stems from some gallery salesperson's recommendation. Of course there are times when I might find something that is both deeply personal and from a gallery or antique store and it says something so unique to that place and time that I place a higher value on it.

I don't abbrogate my right to find meaningful artworks by shopping - but there's a time and a place...

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
It's inevitable that men would put up with a much higher level of rejection than women. It's mostly men who put themselves on the line to be rejected. The norm is for men to ask women to dance, for a date, to marry them, etc. And, when the women reject them, they just suck it up and go on. At least, most men do.

Women are rejected too, and not only in cases where they make the move. They are pre-rejected, so to speak, by men not asking them out in the first place. They also put themselves on the line by showing up and might never be asked to dance, for a date, or to marry. And they have to suck it up and go on as well. I don't believe that's less difficult than asking someone out and being rejected. I've done all of the above and neither situation is better than the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Women pretty much control the relatonship too. As far as sex goes, the man wants it right away but if she doesn't, he waits until he is willing.

Sex is not a relationship. Determining when a woman feels comfortable letting another person into her body is not her exerting her control - it's her making a choice about something very personal. That men see it as a form of control is because that's how they use it. They might date until they get the sex and then walk away. Or walk away if the sex doesn't happen soon enough. Or have sex with others. I'm not saying women don't use it to control, but it goes both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
He will go places with her that don't interest him, such as a play, but will not expect her to go to a baseball game with him, unless she happens to be a fan. If she dislikes a certain kind of food, they don't go to that kind of restaurant. Most men don't really like to dance but they do it because their women like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.

She will go places that don't interest her, such as the Auto Show, but will not expect him to go shopping with her, unless he happens to like shopping. If he dislikes a certain kind of food, she doesn't make it for dinner. A lot of women don't like to go camping , but they do it because their men like to. It is usually pretty subtle and is so engrained in society that it isn't really noticeable.


I'm not trying to argue with you, Box, I'm just pointing out that, as I see it, men and women share control and compromise for each other.

I'm not really trying to argue with you either. I realize that every relationship is different and that they usually involve some give and take. However, I believe that women exercise more control over men than vice-versa. Women have one unbeatable weaon - crying.

I have never heard of "pre-rejected" before but I don't think it would cut as deeply as an actual rejection. If I ask a woman to dance, and she says no, that would be a rejection of me by her. If I had not asked her to dance, that would not have been anything.

I realize sex is not a relationship but it is usually part of a dating relationship. If it is not, that is the woman's choice. If and when it is, she controls the time and pretty much every aspect of it. The man has some say in it too, of course, but he almost always cedes control to the woman.

I know that women sometimes go places they don't enjoy with men, but that is their choice. They tend to feel that the togetherness compensates for their otherwise disinterest. However, women insist that the men accompany them to places whether he wants to go or not.

 

[angela146]

Note to self: stay married, keep husband happy. Being single really sucks.

 

[rgraham666]

Note to self: stay married, keep husband happy. Being single really sucks.

Tell me about it.

 

[Norajane]

Brilliant in the simplicity and profundity combined. I feel like embroidering it on my knickers.

Perdita

Whip up a batch and market them to parents of teenage girls...

 

[Norajane]

As far as control, the number of women that I have met in a personal type/dating scenario that do not actively use sex as a control would probably not fill up the fingers of one hand. The number that did actively use it as a method of control would have multiple zeros following the number.

...

That this does not apply to you makes you a delightful find for some lucky guy/girl. That your very open attitude is any kind of norm, in my experience, it is the diametric opposite.

Again, I would not apply this to the ladies/females of lit and it is based solely on personal experience in RL.

JMHO

Hugo

Perhaps I am in the minority - it's really hard to say what goes on between two people when you're not one of them. My personal view is that sex is a wonderful, glorious thing for two people to share (and a hell of a lot of FUN!). Using it as a weapon or to control the other person is really a weapon you use against yourself - it demeans your partner and erodes the intimacy in the relationship.

Now, if I'm having issues in the relationship outside the bedroom, it may affect my desire to have sex. I can't be intimate and giving and open if my partner and I are at odds with each other about something significant.

I don't consider that as controlling though. It just means I'm neither going to be aroused nor be capable of arousing if we're upset with each other, or I don't feel very close with my partner right then. I have to feel good in the relationship to want sex. (This does not mean, no sex for you because you didn't take out the garbage this week!)