Richmond

[JMohegan]

I think slavery would have become obsolete. Would you rather buy a tractor that could do more in one day than 50 slaves or slaves you have to clothe and feed the entire year? It might be nice to have a house slave if you had the money. People still do that kind of thing. They rent rather than buy. And the house help can quit if they like.

But this has little to do with Richmond.

Your theory of eventual obsolescence makes sense.

This discussion was sparked by Syd's comment about Richmond's Museum of the Confederacy. I'm actually trying to understand the urge to memorialize the Old South.

I get why the March to the Sea was loathsome, and why the war & Reconstruction produced bitter animosity toward northerners for generations to come. What I don't get is the celebration of the society that came before.

 

[JMohegan]

Ashe was born and raised in Richmond, was literally one of the best tennis players of all time, and was quite active in the civil rights movement throughout his life. Monument Ave may have been conceived as a place to honour Confederate figures, but it has wound up a place to honour great Virginians. Ashe's inclusion caused one helluva stir when it happened, but, honestly, I'm happy to see him accorded such an honour (even if he would likely have been displeased with his fellows on site).

As an aside, Ashe was laid to rest in state in the Governor's mansion. The last time that happened? Yeah, Stonewall Jackson. Richmond LOVED Arthur Ashe.

This helps me understand the location of the statue - thanks.

 

[BiBunny]

Poor white trash killed Scarlett's mother, and tried to steal Tara too!

Hahahaha!

I'd dispute the notion of equivalence, but acknowledge your broader point.

Definitely not equivalent. But both groups of people suffered serious hardships. The rich whites encouraged hatred between poor whites and blacks. If they hate each other, they'll never band together to work to overthrow a power system that screwed them both over.

Really? In what ways does your fascination manifest itself?

I'm obsessed with the literature of that period, for one. (That may be an English major thing more than a pre-Civil-War South thing, though.) Works of Southern writers in the, say, 10 years or so before the War and then during and shortly after the war, slave narratives, anything.

I like to read about the history of the time as well, but the War itself doesn't interest me like it does some people. I don't really care about Civil War re-enactments and whatnot. It's more an obsession with the culture of the rich white people.

I also love the architecture of the old plantation houses. Greek Revival is hot! If I ever have the funds to build my own farm, my house will be a reproduction of something like this. (Not the best example, or the best picture of that particular place, but it was the best I could come up with off the top of my head while trying to do 50 things at once.) I love to visit the old restored homes.

I might be a little obsessed with the fashions of the time, too. I show horses, saddleseat style, and the styles of our riding clothes are based on 19th century men's riding fashions, which I think is the greatest thing ever because I'm a dork.

A certain fraternity where I go to school has an Old South ball every year where both guys and girls dress up in antebellum fashions. I was a sorority girl, but I still lament the fact that I never got an invitation to Old South. I'd have given my eyeteeth for a hoop skirt!

The fascination I have with it is kind of weird, as I can't claim that any of my ancestors were rich slave owners. Today's rich people bore me; I guess I get my celebrity/society maven fix from people who died 200 years ago!

 

[Homburg]

This helps me understand the location of the statue - thanks.

I would personally like to see more people like Ashe added to that street. It would dilute its' current focus, and I consider that a good thing. It should be monuments to Virginians of note, not just those from a particular slice of history.

It certainly beats local street named after Nat Turner. While his rebellion was important, and his anger certainly understandable, the fact that he and his band murdered sixty men, women, and children in their homes in the course of 48 hours makes it tough for me to consider him a hero. Yet there is a Nat Turner Street right here in town. Maybe I'm biased, but heroes don't murder children in their beds.

Sadly, the backlash against slaves and black freemen afterwards was horrendous, and reflective of the barbarous nature of the "justice" system of the time.

 

[WriterDom]

Southern culture has been under attack for years. It used to be the Georgia Dixie Redcoat Band. The Dixie was dropped. My flag has been changed twice. I don't think any school outside of Ole Miss can play Dixie. And not even sure if they still do. South Carolina can't fly the battle flag. Schools have been renamed. I won't be surprised if one day Stone Mountain is re-carved into Obama, Carter, and Clinton.

You're a Yankee, JMohegan, but at least you aren't a damn Yankee. That's one who comes south and stays.

 

[JMohegan]

Southern culture has been under attack for years. It used to be the Georgia Dixie Redcoat Band. The Dixie was dropped. My flag has been changed twice. I don't think any school outside of Ole Miss can play Dixie. And not even sure if they still do. South Carolina can't fly the battle flag. Schools have been renamed. I won't be surprised if one day Stone Mountain is re-carved into Obama, Carter, and Clinton.

You mean southern *white* culture. Right?

Why are you proud of those symbols of the Confederacy? That's what I don't understand. What aspects of the Old South do you revere or wish to celebrate? That's what I'm asking here.

You're a Yankee, JMohegan, but at least you aren't a damn Yankee. That's one who comes south and stays.

"To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast."

- E.B. White



Damn Yankees

 

[Homburg]

You mean southern *white* culture. Right?

Why are you proud of those symbols of the Confederacy? That's what I don't understand. What aspects of the Old South do you revere or wish to celebrate? That's what I'm asking here.

The parts that speak to him. Much as you celebrate the aspects of yoru culture that speaks to you.

Do you respect and acknowledge the American flag knowing that it is the same one that flew over slave-owners and those who brutalised the native americans? That some of the stars on that blue field were taken by force of arms?

I don't ask that to attack you, but to turn the question around. We each celebrate those parts of our history and background that we find relevant. Given that no nation on Earth has a completely unstained history, it is safe to say that anyone with even vague national pride at all is cherry-picking the good parts.

Personally, I don't identify with the antebellum south. It's not my bag. But I would be happier if it weren't tarred with the same broad brush each time, as even scholars of that time were differentiating between "border states" and "deep south" insofar as attitudes were concerned.

Personally, I laud the southern military tradition. The south was, and is, the backbone of the US Military. I look at the command on the grey side and recognise hands down that they were better tacticians than their Union counterparts. And I respect a willingness to die for one's principles, though this is applicable on both sides. I am just different in that I can see the willingness to do so as separate from the principles themselves (as well as being of the studied opinion that slavery was not the core principle).

I identify more strongly with the colonial era South. Much more interesting from my perspective. This probably unsurprising given the area I live in. Just a wee bit of important colonial/RevWar history happened around here.

 

[JMohegan]

Definitely not equivalent. But both groups of people suffered serious hardships. The rich whites encouraged hatred between poor whites and blacks. If they hate each other, they'll never band together to work to overthrow a power system that screwed them both over.

Divide and conquer is a very old trick.

I'm obsessed with the literature of that period, for one. (That may be an English major thing more than a pre-Civil-War South thing, though.) Works of Southern writers in the, say, 10 years or so before the War and then during and shortly after the war, slave narratives, anything.

I like to read about the history of the time as well, but the War itself doesn't interest me like it does some people. I don't really care about Civil War re-enactments and whatnot. It's more an obsession with the culture of the rich white people.

I also love the architecture of the old plantation houses. Greek Revival is hot! If I ever have the funds to build my own farm, my house will be a reproduction of something like this. (Not the best example, or the best picture of that particular place, but it was the best I could come up with off the top of my head while trying to do 50 things at once.) I love to visit the old restored homes.

I might be a little obsessed with the fashions of the time, too. I show horses, saddleseat style, and the styles of our riding clothes are based on 19th century men's riding fashions, which I think is the greatest thing ever because I'm a dork.

A certain fraternity where I go to school has an Old South ball every year where both guys and girls dress up in antebellum fashions. I was a sorority girl, but I still lament the fact that I never got an invitation to Old South. I'd have given my eyeteeth for a hoop skirt!

The fascination I have with it is kind of weird, as I can't claim that any of my ancestors were rich slave owners. Today's rich people bore me; I guess I get my celebrity/society maven fix from people who died 200 years ago!

Thanks, BiBunny. I can't relate to the interest, but can at least recognize architecture, horses, and hoop skirts, in isolation, as inoffensive cultural symbols or forms.

You might be interested to know that I've met white northern women who consider Gone With the Wind to be one of the greatest books ever written, and that movie one of the best. That stuns me, for multiple reasons, but it's their view nevertheless.

If pressed, these women will admit that the tale is rife with offensive stereotypes, and that the opening title sequence alone should be enough to discredit the entire film. Still, they say they love the romanticized view of gallantry and graceful living, as well as the drama involved in the characters' survival of the collapse of the civilization itself.

 

[JMohegan]

The parts that speak to him.

That's what I'm asking. What parts speak to him?

 

[JMohegan]

Do you respect and acknowledge the American flag knowing that it is the same one that flew over slave-owners and those who brutalised the native americans? That some of the stars on that blue field were taken by force of arms?

Yes, of course.

First and foremost, because I respect and honor the Constitution. It's fundamental principles and flexibility, and the way the arc of American history bends so clearly toward justice - even though the path isn't always steady, and justice often takes time.

Also because I celebrate the American spirit of discovery, innovation, energy and drive. And I just plain love the cultural melting pot that enriches all of our lives.

 

[Homburg]

Yes, of course.

First and foremost, because I respect and honor the Constitution. It's fundamental principles and flexibility, and the way the arc of American history bends so clearly toward justice - even though the path isn't always steady, and justice often takes time.

Also because I celebrate the American spirit of discovery, innovation, energy and drive. And I just plain love the cultural melting pot that enriches all of our lives.

Exactly. You can respect that parts that speak to you. It is the same thing in this situation.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't feel that kind of fervor about the flag or most other symbols. I have never had that pure, visceral patriotic love. I have wondered if I'm a shitty American. I do love the Constitution. And I love American history, especially American cultural history, including pop culture. It's been a long 8 years, and even before that I felt lukewarm about Clinton, strongly disliked Bush I and Reagan. It still feels really weird to listen to our President and think, yeah, that makes sense. I don't know. I just find it fascinating to hear this feeling expressed, because I've heard it often, and have never felt it.

p.s. I think Jefferson Davis' house is next door or something to the Museum of the Confederacy. I liked this tour as well.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't feel that kind of fervor about the flag or most other symbols. I have never had that pure, visceral patriotic love. I have wondered if I'm a shitty American. I do love the Constitution. And I love American history, especially American cultural history, including pop culture. It's been a long 8 years, and even before that I felt lukewarm about Clinton, strongly disliked Bush I and Reagan. It still feels really weird to listen to our President and think, yeah, that makes sense. I don't know. I just find it fascinating to hear this feeling expressed, because I've heard it often, and have never felt it.

p.s. I think Jefferson Davis' house is next door or something to the Museum of the Confederacy. I liked this tour as well.

At least you don't revere symbols of attempted secession.

I think patriotism takes many forms.

The website describes his house as "one of the nation’s finest historic, architectural and decorative treasures." Does that describe it well?

 

[Homburg]

At least you don't revere symbols of attempted secession.

I think patriotism takes many forms.

And one of those forms might just be secession, especially when you feel like the govt is espousing principles that do not hold true to the ideals of the nation.

Admittedly, this gets into a states' right argument, and that will likely cause headaches for everyone involved as we Monday-morning quarterback the lead-up to the war.

And given that we were founded by secessionists removing themselves from Crown Rule, you might want to take care of your choice of words. Or is it just the "attempted" part that galls?

 

[JMohegan]

And one of those forms might just be secession, especially when you feel like the govt is espousing principles that do not hold true to the ideals of the nation.

Admittedly, this gets into a states' right argument, and that will likely cause headaches for everyone involved as we Monday-morning quarterback the lead-up to the war.

And given that we were founded by secessionists removing themselves from Crown Rule, you might want to take care of your choice of words. Or is it just the "attempted" part that galls?

Fighting a war of secession is not patriotism, it's treason. See the Constitution, Article 3 Section 3.

I don't feel patriotic toward the United Kingdom. I feel patriotic toward the United States of America.

When the government fails to hold true to the ideals of this nation, I work to change it. That's the way real patriotism works. Colonists tried this for a while, and concluded that continual resistance within the British system was futile. The example of the American Revolution shows that treason is not necessarily immoral or illogical or wrong. But the fact remains that patriotism and treason are not the same thing.

I don't understand patriotism toward the Confederate States of America. This isn't something I find galling, it's something I find inexplicable. This is what I'm asking about. Not to attack Confederate flag wavers, but to understand their point of view.

 

[Homburg]

Fighting a war of secession is not patriotism, it's treason. See the Constitution, Article 3 Section 3.

I don't feel patriotic toward the United Kingdom. I feel patriotic toward the United States of America.

When the government fails to hold true to the ideals of this nation, I work to change it. That's the way real patriotism works. Colonists tried this for a while, and concluded that continual resistance within the British system was futile. The example of the American Revolution shows that treason is not necessarily immoral or illogical or wrong. But the fact remains that patriotism and treason are not the same thing.

I don't understand patriotism toward the Confederate States of America. This isn't something I find galling, it's something I find inexplicable. This is what I'm asking about. Not to attack Confederate flag wavers, but to understand their point of view.

I don't understand it either. *shrug* I'm not one of them.

I will, however, disagree with that treason is automatically the antithesis of patriotism. Patriotism, simply defined, is love of one's country (Merriam-Webster). Love of government is not explicitly contained in that definition, and the govt is most assuredly not the country. Far from it, especially given the structure of the nation as intended.

Treason, simply defined (Merriam-Webster again), is either a betrayal of trust, in the small scale, or an act to attempt to overthrow the govt of one's nation (in the grand scale). If one were of the strongly held opinion that one's govt had swayed heavily from its' founding principles, treason and patriotism are not mutually exclusive. Not at all. Treason, in fact, becomes the duty of the patriot in such conditions.

The nation, as intended, was a collection of states, each of which had powers to enforce its' own laws within its' own borders, so long as it did not go against the limited powers of the fed, or impinge on its' neighbors. The fed accreted power steadily, and the war was a concrete challenge to that, as well as a blow, though an extreme one, struck to return power to the states.

I am with you when you talk about working within the system to solve the problem. That was tried. As a history buff, I would assume that you are aware of this, but many, many parties tried for a very long time to come to accord, to find compromise (from before this nation was born actually), and to defuse the situation. In the end, Mr Lincoln was not having it.

It is not popular to bring up, but he showed plainly the abuses of the fed by instituting martial law not once, but twice, and suspending habea corpus. It is interesting to note that there was a group amongst democrats called the copperheads that were working feverishly to produce a compromise, and get the situation to simmer down. A very large number of those copperheads were arrested by the Union army during martial law, and tried and convicted by military tribunals. One case saw the defendant (Merryman, a Maryland secessionist) petition the SCOTUS for habeas corpus, alleging (rightly so) that the proceedings were Unconstitutional. SCOTUS agreed, and declared martial law, as Lincoln did it (ie Executive Order, not per order of Congress) Unconstitutional. Lincoln ignored the Supreme Court.

Regardless, at its' core, patriotism refers to the country, and treason the government. They are not quite the same entity. This is why I see treason as sometimes the only path acceptable to a patriot.

I love my nation, but I fear my government.

-

Note: I am not crucifying Lincoln. He did some horrid, abusive things, and made George Bush, the lesser, look like a piker when it came to illegally extending the power of the Executive Branch. He did, however, manage to keep the Union together, a laudable goal. And freed more men, women, and children from shackles of unjust slavery than any man before or after.

Lincoln is a complex figure, larger than life, but still painted in shades of grey. Too often he is the great crusader freeing the slaves, but rarely do you see the dastardly things he did to get to that point. I prefer to see him as the total package, flawed, human, and real.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't understand it either. *shrug* I'm not one of them.

I will, however, disagree with that treason is automatically the antithesis of patriotism. Patriotism, simply defined, is love of one's country (Merriam-Webster). Love of government is not explicitly contained in that definition, and the govt is most assuredly not the country. Far from it, especially given the structure of the nation as intended.

Treason, simply defined (Merriam-Webster again), is either a betrayal of trust, in the small scale, or an act to attempt to overthrow the govt of one's nation (in the grand scale). If one were of the strongly held opinion that one's govt had swayed heavily from its' founding principles, treason and patriotism are not mutually exclusive. Not at all. Treason, in fact, becomes the duty of the patriot in such conditions.

The nation, as intended, was a collection of states, each of which had powers to enforce its' own laws within its' own borders, so long as it did not go against the limited powers of the fed, or impinge on its' neighbors. The fed accreted power steadily, and the war was a concrete challenge to that, as well as a blow, though an extreme one, struck to return power to the states.

I am with you when you talk about working within the system to solve the problem. That was tried. As a history buff, I would assume that you are aware of this, but many, many parties tried for a very long time to come to accord, to find compromise (from before this nation was born actually), and to defuse the situation. In the end, Mr Lincoln was not having it.

It is not popular to bring up, but he showed plainly the abuses of the fed by instituting martial law not once, but twice, and suspending habea corpus. It is interesting to note that there was a group amongst democrats called the copperheads that were working feverishly to produce a compromise, and get the situation to simmer down. A very large number of those copperheads were arrested by the Union army during martial law, and tried and convicted by military tribunals. One case saw the defendant (Merryman, a Maryland secessionist) petition the SCOTUS for habeas corpus, alleging (rightly so) that the proceedings were Unconstitutional. SCOTUS agreed, and declared martial law, as Lincoln did it (ie Executive Order, not per order of Congress) Unconstitutional. Lincoln ignored the Supreme Court.

Regardless, at its' core, patriotism refers to the country, and treason the government. They are not quite the same entity. This is why I see treason as sometimes the only path acceptable to a patriot.

I love my nation, but I fear my government.

-

Note: I am not crucifying Lincoln. He did some horrid, abusive things, and made George Bush, the lesser, look like a piker when it came to illegally extending the power of the Executive Branch. He did, however, manage to keep the Union together, a laudable goal. And freed more men, women, and children from shackles of unjust slavery than any man before or after.

Lincoln is a complex figure, larger than life, but still painted in shades of grey. Too often he is the great crusader freeing the slaves, but rarely do you see the dastardly things he did to get to that point. I prefer to see him as the total package, flawed, human, and real.

The Founding Fathers had had enough of dissidence slammed as "treason" by the King. Therefore our Constitution defines it, very specifically, in Article 3 Section 3.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Davis and Lee were indicted for treason; President Johnson wisely granted them amnesty.


I'm heading to bed, and out to Richmond in the morning. Thanks to all for the travel tips! I'll report on the trip when I get back.

 

[WriterDom]

You mean southern *white* culture. Right?

Why are you proud of those symbols of the Confederacy? That's what I don't understand. What aspects of the Old South do you revere or wish to celebrate? That's what I'm asking here.



Damn Yankees

Talk to the black Boston pro basketball players in the 50s and 60s. Talk to Rodney King. Talk to the Cincinnati police. Talk to Homburg about his racist buddies in Pennsylvania who beat blacks for sport. Or channel up some of your northern ancestors who were probably just as likely to own a slave as mine. Or talk to your own government who rounded up every native American in the southeast and made them all, young and old, march to Oklahoma in the fucking snow.

Just get off my ass because I've never owned a slave. Never harmed a black person or treated them with disrespect.

 

[Netzach]

I was asked to do a "southern gothic" themed show for my accessories this year, and found myself totally nonplussed about what to do. Then I thought, duh, New Orleans.

Now THAT I can get romantic and hyped up about. Whenever people get snotty about the south, I do like to remind them that one of the most sophisticated melting pots on the entire planet is right there. No New Orleans, no soul of America.

 

[Netzach]

Talk to the black Boston pro basketball players in the 50s and 60s. Talk to Rodney King. Talk to the Cincinnati police. Talk to Homburg about his racist buddies in Pennsylvania who beat blacks for sport. Or channel up some of your northern ancestors who were probably just as likely to own a slave as mine. Or talk to your own government who rounded up every native American in the southeast and made them all, young and old, march to Oklahoma in the fucking snow.

Just get off my ass because I've never owned a slave. Never harmed a black person or treated them with disrespect.

Meh, I still think there's a difference between de-facto versus written voted on policy.

 

[JMohegan]

Talk to the black Boston pro basketball players in the 50s and 60s. Talk to Rodney King. Talk to the Cincinnati police. Talk to Homburg about his racist buddies in Pennsylvania who beat blacks for sport. Or channel up some of your northern ancestors who were probably just as likely to own a slave as mine. Or talk to your own government who rounded up every native American in the southeast and made them all, young and old, march to Oklahoma in the fucking snow.

Just get off my ass because I've never owned a slave. Never harmed a black person or treated them with disrespect.

What the fuck, WD. I didn't call you a racist, I asked you a question.

Why are you proud of those symbols of the Confederacy? If you are unable or unwilling to respond, just say so.

 

[intothewoods]

Soooo, how's Richmond?

 

[JMohegan]

glad to be of help! the grounds, fountains, wildlife, beautiful old trees...are all amazing. and it very easy to find little hidden, out of the way spots where you can just BE. Daddy and i have some very precious memories tied to that park.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Even without leaves on the deciduous trees, Maymont is gorgeous. And a great place for running! It was cool and sunny today, and I ran up and down and all over those hills - genuinely surprised at the amount of land set aside as a nature preserve, right there in Richmond.

One of the most beautiful trees I've ever seen was standing between the parking lot and the barn in the children's farm section. An evergreen with a massive trunk and gnarled, extraordinarily thick branches - spreading horizontally to an incredible width. Just breathtaking.

I never would have gone there, if you hadn't told me about it, osg. Thanks again.

 

[JMohegan]

Soooo, how's Richmond?

It was partly fascinating (the museum), partly gorgeous (the park), partly amusing (Monument Ave), and partly a trip to a sloooow motion alternate universe.

These are not people in a hurry! Not the waiters, not the drivers, not the people selling tickets to anything, not the folks you meet on the street.

 

[intothewoods]

It was partly fascinating (the museum), partly gorgeous (the park), partly amusing (Monument Ave), and partly a trip to a sloooow motion alternate universe.

These are not people in a hurry! Not the waiters, not the drivers, not the people selling tickets to anything, not the folks you meet on the street.

Ha. I used to think that about people in DC. I'm not sure if I got used to it or what.

It seemed really empty to me when I was there, and I guess it was just the time of year. But that was odd.