Richmond

[Netzach]

That was part of it, yes, but also the Republicans were moving to lock the freedmen in as a perpetual constituency that would essentially destroy the Democratic party and establish the Republicans as a permanent power. There was a self-defense aspect to Jim Crow that is typically overlooked, abhorrent as the laws were.

Would this be an enforced Tammany-like "lock" or just the likely probable outcome if you simply let people vote though?

I don't think they'd have to have built a very sophisticated "machine" for those votes.

And for some reason "we had to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of people to keep things fair" is a kind of joke punchline isn't it?

 

[Netzach]

The Irish just aren't mediagenic enough apparently. White people are allowed to abuse other white people, enslave them, oppress them, etc and it is okay. It's when y'all do it to people with different coloured skin that it starts to show up well in etchings and on camera.

I call horse dookie.

Zagreb vs. Darfur.

 

[rosco rathbone]

The Irish just aren't mediagenic enough apparently. White people are allowed to abuse other white people, enslave them, oppress them, etc and it is okay. It's when y'all do it to people with different coloured skin that it starts to show up well in etchings and on camera.



My maternal grandfather was a polish immigrant coal miner. You want to talk about hearing some Polack jokes...

Have you read Born Fighting?

Jim Goad's redneck book is good too.

 

[JMohegan]

4 of the first 5 presidents and 12 of the first 18 were slave owners. I don't see you throwing them under the bus with the South.

In what way am I throwing the South under the bus? Please quote the post in which I do so.

I'm asking you a question, WD. You keep refusing to answer, which is your prerogative, of course. But please note that I don't consider an attempt to change the subject to be an answer.

 

[ZRT]

The Irish just aren't mediagenic enough apparently. White people are allowed to abuse other white people, enslave them, oppress them, etc and it is okay. It's when y'all do it to people with different coloured skin that it starts to show up well in etchings and on camera.

Well...

 

[ZRT]

Would this be an enforced Tammany-like "lock" or just the likely probable outcome if you simply let people vote though?

I don't think they'd have to have built a very sophisticated "machine" for those votes.

And for some reason "we had to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of people to keep things fair" is a kind of joke punchline isn't it?

Obviously the freedmen were largely going to be a Republican constituency to begin with, but the Republicans were also very keen on using them to build perpetual power without any particular regard or concern for the freedmen themselves.

I'm not justifying Jim Crow. I'm pointing out that it wasn't purely a matter of malice and racist ideology for those who enacted it.

And after it came to being, the Republicans pretty much just abandoned the freedmen, and what little power they had left was basically to be a bloc in the presidential primaries. The former slaves got fucked by one side and abandoned by the other because their welfare was never anybody's primary concern. They were just pawns in the power game.

 

[Netzach]

Obviously the freedmen were largely going to be a Republican constituency to begin with, but the Republicans were also very keen on using them to build perpetual power without any particular regard or concern for the freedmen themselves.

I'm not justifying Jim Crow. I'm pointing out that it wasn't purely a matter of malice and racist ideology for those who enacted it.

And after it came to being, the Republicans pretty much just abandoned the freedmen, and what little power they had left was basically to be a bloc in the presidential primaries. The former slaves got fucked by one side and abandoned by the other because their welfare was never anybody's primary concern. They were just pawns in the power game.

They absolutely did get ditched on. But for a brief second there was a door open and swiftly shut on what could have, and should have happened.

Simply put, the "Great Migration" wasn't to Richmond, was it? Seems a fairly clear verdict.

 

[ZRT]

They absolutely did get ditched on. But for a brief second there was a door open and swiftly shut on what could have, and should have happened.

Simply put, the "Great Migration" wasn't to Richmond, was it? Seems a fairly clear verdict.

Because justice demanded the creation of a new permanent underclass, which is what the Republicans were attempting?

There was no justice to be had in the situation. The southern politicians were fighting to retain what vestiges of power the postwar equation left them with, and the Republicans wanted the 'servile negroes' in place to allow them to further put the screws to the south and sustain their monopoly on power. They certainly didn't want the freedmen moving into their bastions, and shoveled them into the dankest corners they could cram them into.

This was a power game, and power games ignore petty concerns such as human rights and individual satisfaction. Remember, Lincoln was prepared to guarantee slavery in perpetuity in order to preserve the Union.

 

[Netzach]

Because justice demanded the creation of a new permanent underclass, which is what the Republicans were attempting?

There was no justice to be had in the situation. The southern politicians were fighting to retain what vestiges of power the postwar equation left them with, and the Republicans wanted the 'servile negroes' in place to allow them to further put the screws to the south and sustain their monopoly on power. They certainly didn't want the freedmen moving into their bastions, and shoveled them into the dankest corners they could cram them into.

This was a power game, and power games ignore petty concerns such as human rights and individual satisfaction. Remember, Lincoln was prepared to guarantee slavery in perpetuity in order to preserve the Union.

This version of the story is too macro for me.

The people in "dank corners" are more resilient, complex, and interesting than that.

 

[ZRT]

The people in "dank corners" are more resilient, complex, and interesting than that.

They were trying to find a better place and a better life for themselves, entirely normal and worthy aspirations. I'm not dismissing them at all, on the contrary I'm condemning the Northern power elite for regarding them as expendable pawns. Again, context of the times- very few white folk had any notion of black equality. Politicians are far more likely to parrot words of concern for the plight of constituencies than to actually care about their situation, because successful politicians tend to be cynics.

 

[Netzach]

They were trying to find a better place and a better life for themselves, entirely normal and worthy aspirations. I'm not dismissing them at all, on the contrary I'm condemning the Northern power elite for regarding them as expendable pawns. Again, context of the times- very few white folk had any notion of black equality. Politicians are far more likely to parrot words of concern for the plight of constituencies than to actually care about their situation, because successful politicians tend to be cynics.

Definitely - the people who "got it" were largely outside the sphere of national political influence, or they were only comfortable getting so close to the people they were purporting to help.

It's not simple by any means. And frankly, I live in a city I find disturbingly segregated, while Richmond is actually pretty diverse in terms of people coexisting. If the south is so crappy, why are there major black middle classes in its cities and not mine?

 

[ZRT]

It's not simple by any means. And frankly, I live in a city I find disturbingly segregated, while Richmond is actually pretty diverse in terms of people coexisting. If the south is so crappy, why are there major black middle classes in its cities and not mine?

Funny thing, that. I work on a completely integrated crew, and ethnicity is more of a grounds for light humor than a serious issue. The day after the last election, I told my boss that I didn't feel comfortable wearing a white protective suit on such an auspicious occasion since coworker X's 'homie' (finger quotes used in the statement) just got elected president. Coworker X told me he was going to call the White House and get my ass taxed into the ground over that shit. And he was going to kick my ass, to boot.

We've learned to live together a lot better than we're given credit for. There was an active klansman who worked at the plant, and he didn't last long.

When I was in high school, the interracial dating taboo just kind of blew up and faded away all at once. There was a realization that it opened up a whole new field of available mates, and man, we partook.

There's still issues. There's still idiots, even whole communities of them. But times have changed, and that's why we get cranky when we get hit with the same old stereotypes.

 

[Netzach]

Funny thing, that. I work on a completely integrated crew, and ethnicity is more of a grounds for light humor than a serious issue. The day after the last election, I told my boss that I didn't feel comfortable wearing a white protective suit on such an auspicious occasion since coworker X's 'homie' (finger quotes used in the statement) just got elected president. Coworker X told me he was going to call the White House and get my ass taxed into the ground over that shit. And he was going to kick my ass, to boot.

We've learned to live together a lot better than we're given credit for. There was an active klansman who worked at the plant, and he didn't last long.

When I was in high school, the interracial dating taboo just kind of blew up and faded away all at once. There was a realization that it opened up a whole new field of available mates, and man, we partook.

There's still issues. There's still idiots, even whole communities of them. But times have changed, and that's why we get cranky when we get hit with the same old stereotypes.

Sounds like healthy interaction to me, the kind I'm used to in NYC and miss here. Shit out in the open. Good stuff.

I went to school with a very ritzy set, many of whom had domestic help. The only family that had a black woman in their house every day, entrusted with the kids, feeding them, and treated much more warmly than any other domestic I saw - was a family with Delaware/Baltimore roots, and WASP not Jewish. Not exactly deep southern, but the comfort zones tend to up as you move south.

Definitely it's good to challenge stereotypes. I think people are beginning to get the complexity - but that also means letting the nastier side of reality be - where I see a lot of people eager to whitewash, in their versions forgive the pun.

 

[ZRT]

Sounds like healthy interaction to me, the kind I'm used to in NYC and miss here. Shit out in the open. Good stuff.

I went to school with a very ritzy set, many of whom had domestic help. The only family that had a black woman in their house every day, entrusted with the kids, feeding them, and treated much more warmly than any other domestic I saw - was a family with Delaware/Baltimore roots, and WASP not Jewish. Not exactly deep southern, but the comfort zones tend to up as you move south.

Definitely it's good to challenge stereotypes. I think people are beginning to get the complexity - but that also means letting the nastier side of reality be - where I see a lot of people eager to whitewash, in their versions forgive the pun.

I look forward to the time when we're so racially muddied up that we'll have very little left to argue about on that point. Of course, then the shade of color will become a point of contention, I suppose. But a man can dream, can't he?

 

[Netzach]

I look forward to the time when we're so racially muddied up that we'll have very little left to argue about on that point. Of course, then the shade of color will become a point of contention, I suppose. But a man can dream, can't he?

We'll have fashion wars or something equally as arbitrary and stupid to keep us busy.

 

[ZRT]

We'll have fashion wars or something equally as arbitrary and stupid to keep us busy.

We're a violent, cantankerous and argumentative species. In the absence of outside threat, we turn on each other. Every society has its acceptable scapegoat that it's considered righteous to condemn.

That's how we hairless monkeys roll.

 

[rosco rathbone]

We'll have fashion wars or something equally as arbitrary and stupid to keep us busy.

Even I, a male supremacist, have to admit that the world would be better under female control.

 

[Netzach]

Even I, a male supremacist, have to admit that the world would be better under female control.

Margaret Thatcher. Golda.

Nope, not so sure.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Margaret Thatcher. Golda.

Nope, not so sure.

Well, that's two women out of several billion....

Those two had to be hard to survive politically.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Ozma.

 

[Homburg]

If there's no difference between the men who had one personal retainer (who they may have treated well or terribly or both at varying times) and 300 people living like animals in your moral compass, then yes, the North has no business discussing the question.

*blink*

I am more confused. If we are judging relative treatments, why are the railroads not vilified for how they treated workers in the push West? Why isn't the Union more the target of hatred for what was done to the Natives on the Trail of Tears and other forced migrations? It's the south again and again and again. That's what confuses me.

(Nonconsensual) Slavery is either wrong, or not. If you base judgement on how the slave is treated, why is an entire region of the country being damned when many were not so vicious towards their slaves? There are numerous accounts of the differences between the "border states" and the "ddep south" at the time of the conflict. Why are we not just seeing the deep south vilified alone?

This is not dithering?

--

I call horse dookie.

Zagreb vs. Darfur.

Okay, I'm lost. Help me out on this.

Zagreb was, from memory, motivated along ethno-religious lines, no? I'm not sure how this is relevant to my tongue-in-cheek comment about whites abusing whites.

Honestly, I'm just confused by this response, probably due to lack of specific perspective on the referenced areas.

--

Have you read Born Fighting?

Jim Goad's redneck book is good too.

Haven't read it. Good stuff I'm assuming?

--

Well...

While I can't say it tastes better *in* Ireland, Guinnes *from* Ireland sure as hell tastes better. A Londoner friend of mine used a goodly portion of his carry-on luggage to bring me some Irish Guinness the last time he visited.

--

It's not simple by any means. And frankly, I live in a city I find disturbingly segregated, while Richmond is actually pretty diverse in terms of people coexisting. If the south is so crappy, why are there major black middle classes in its cities and not mine?

Something I've noted before.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Haven't read it. Good stuff I'm assuming?

I think you'd dig it.

wiki:

Books

Webb's successful first novel, Fields of Fire (1978), drawn from personal experience, tells the story of a platoon of US Marines in late 1960s Vietnam. Reviewers hailed its pull-no-punches descriptions of infantry life and combat.[55]

After five more novels, he wrote a work of nonfiction, Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America, tracing the role people of Scots-Irish ancestry have played in American history and culture. Webb argues that, contrary to the "cracker" and "redneck" stereotypes often applied to the Scots-Irish, many of whom settled in Appalachia, the American Midwest and the American South, the Scots-Irish were central to defining American working class values and culture. He lauds the fiercely independent streak and individualism of the Scots-Irish, and explains how their political pragmatism has often led them to play the role of swing voters in elections, for example as Reagan Democrats, and as voters for Ross Perot and Reform Party.

 

[the_pet]

...speaking of Richmond, i'm going to the hockey game tonight

GO GADES!!!!!

 

[WriterDom]

...speaking of Richmond, i'm going to the hockey game tonight

GO GADES!!!!!

Wish I could go!

 

[Homburg]

I think you'd dig it.

wiki:

Books

Webb's successful first novel, Fields of Fire (1978), drawn from personal experience, tells the story of a platoon of US Marines in late 1960s Vietnam. Reviewers hailed its pull-no-punches descriptions of infantry life and combat.[55]

After five more novels, he wrote a work of nonfiction, Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America, tracing the role people of Scots-Irish ancestry have played in American history and culture. Webb argues that, contrary to the "cracker" and "redneck" stereotypes often applied to the Scots-Irish, many of whom settled in Appalachia, the American Midwest and the American South, the Scots-Irish were central to defining American working class values and culture. He lauds the fiercely independent streak and individualism of the Scots-Irish, and explains how their political pragmatism has often led them to play the role of swing voters in elections, for example as Reagan Democrats, and as voters for Ross Perot and Reform Party.

I've heard of this book! It's one I've actually wanted to read.

Honestly, that description could be used to describe my paternal grandfather, his brother, and ever-damned-body on that side of my very Scottish family in NC.

And, yes, the proper pronunciation of that actual is "ever-damned-body." There is no "y" if you are in the south.

--

...speaking of Richmond, i'm going to the hockey game tonight

GO GADES!!!!!

Ahem.

Admirals.
Admirals.
ADMIRALS.

I just wish I'd bought a jersey before they changed them. Boooo.

 

[intothewoods]

The Irish just aren't mediagenic enough apparently. White people are allowed to abuse other white people, enslave them, oppress them, etc and it is okay. It's when y'all do it to people with different coloured skin that it starts to show up well in etchings and on camera.

*blink*

I am more confused. If we are judging relative treatments, why are the railroads not vilified for how they treated workers in the push West? Why isn't the Union more the target of hatred for what was done to the Natives on the Trail of Tears and other forced migrations? It's the south again and again and again. That's what confuses me.

(Nonconsensual) Slavery is either wrong, or not. If you base judgement on how the slave is treated, why is an entire region of the country being damned when many were not so vicious towards their slaves? There are numerous accounts of the differences between the "border states" and the "ddep south" at the time of the conflict. Why are we not just seeing the deep south vilified alone?

This is not dithering?

I don't think the South is more villified exactly. The experience of white ethnics is not remembered as vividly because of assimilation. Views have changed. Jew was an ethnic checkbox at one time, but it's not anymore. But I didn't learn that the Trail of Tears was justifiable or somehow a better deal than slavery. We Americans probably do, collectively, conveniently distance ourselves from the actions of our government. I wasn't personally responsible for the Trail of Tears. Or the internment camps during WWII. And there's a bit of bullshit to that, but I also don't display symbols from either of those times on my lawn.

Haha. We have some kick ass gardeners at our fetlife group don't we?

Totally. That's the most I've posted in a group on Fetlife ever I think.

Even I, a male supremacist, have to admit that the world would be better under female control.

I once was seated between a pro domme and a sub guy. She asked him if he thought women were the superior gender. And he said yes, of course. It was sort of like hanging out with an 11 year old chauvinist pig but in reverse.