Richmond

[JMohegan]

I live in Richmond. It's a great city. The recommendations are right on the mark. Momument Avenue is awesome with all it's statues. The Museum of the Confederacy and the Confederate White House are not to be missed. I certainly don't agree with their viewpoint, but historically they are significant. I would also encourage you to stop by and see Hollywood Cemetery. If cemeteries don't creep you out - this one is awesome. Beautiful monuments. Full of the famous dead.

I went to the cemetery, and was glad I did. Very pretty setting, lots of interesting markers and monuments, as you say.

The woman in the administrative office was very friendly, giving me a thorough heads up as to highlights to look for when she gave me the cemetery map. After I was done, I popped in to thank her and tell her how beautiful it was. Clearly pleased, she smiled and said, "We still have plots for sale, if you're interested." I almost burst out laughing, thinking about WD's damn yankee comment.

 

[JMohegan]

Ha. I used to think that about people in DC. I'm not sure if I got used to it or what.

It seemed really empty to me when I was there, and I guess it was just the time of year. But that was odd.

It's definitely not a bustling downtown.

 

[WriterDom]

What the fuck, WD. I didn't call you a racist, I asked you a question.

Why are you proud of those symbols of the Confederacy? If you are unable or unwilling to respond, just say so.

Yeah we are your little warrior cousins to the south. But Homburg gets it. And SW. And I wore the blue and spent my time on the cutting edge of the sword of freedom. And my brother went to Vietnam. My father in the merchant marines. He wasn't even a vet. Even though they had the highest death rate in WWII among any service.

My only regret is that my ancestor wasn't a better shot.

 

[JMohegan]

Yeah we are your little warrior cousins to the south. But Homburg gets it. And SW. And I wore the blue and spent my time on the cutting edge of the sword of freedom. And my brother went to Vietnam. My father in the merchant marines. He wasn't even a vet. Even though they had the highest death rate in WWII among any service.

My only regret is that my ancestor wasn't a better shot.

You're right, I don't get it. I have no idea what the Dixie song and the Confederate battle flag have to do with Vietnam and WWII.

I also have no idea as to the point of the "little warrior cousins" remark.

 

[WriterDom]

You're right, I don't get it. I have no idea what the Dixie song and the Confederate battle flag have to do with Vietnam and WWII.

I also have no idea as to the point of the "little warrior cousins" remark.

It realiy isn't get over it

 

[JMohegan]

It realiy isn't get over it

WD, this makes no sense.

 

[ZRT]

JM, it's this:

You mean southern *white* culture. Right?

There is a very common tendency to paint the south (and to a lesser extent the west) with a broad brush of 'racist rednecks'. People get touchy about the characterization, especially when we're treated as being the backwards barbarians in comparison to great and enlightened Northern/Hollywood values. Given how the Klan was reborn in northern states like Ohio, and the examples WD listed, there's a lot of hypocrisy afoot. Not saying that you're part of it, but that's why we get pissed about that sort of thing.

 

[ZRT]

Also, on the matter of Southern CSA 'nationalism', there's a division there. For the spiritual descendants of the planter class, those were the good old days when they were in charge. For the rest, it's a sense of familial unity. The Scots Irish basically got kicked out into the frontiers ahead of civilization wherever they went, and the mindset puts kith and kin over trifles like governments, because the powers that be used our ancestors and then pushed us out the door time and again. The CSA is romanticized as a place where 'we' had a nation where 'we' had a voice, and so on. It's bullshit, mind, because that was the plantation owners running the show, but the feeling is that we just wanted to be left alone and the Yankees came and kicked in the door.

 

[intothewoods]

I still find Southern culture to be a great mystery. It's hard to really get what some of these symbols mean to an outsider. Just speaking for myself of course.

Here's a bit of my own experience. I'm Jewish and I've never been to Israel, and yet I've found that certain symbols and other representations of Israel occasionally appeal to me on a really deep level. Just sometimes. And it's weird. I find many of the Israeli government's actions to be appalling! I don't consider myself Israeli, and I'm not moving to Israel. All that is just to say that I understand if it's complicated.

 

[Netzach]

You're right, I don't get it. I have no idea what the Dixie song and the Confederate battle flag have to do with Vietnam and WWII.

I also have no idea as to the point of the "little warrior cousins" remark.

My Grandfather spent a *lot* of time in Biloxi.

That might make sense to those so enlightened, just what the fuck he was doing in Biloxi.

In between bouts of being called kike he used to sneak food out of cafes to black guys. My grandfather is hardly someone I will remember for enlightened racial attitudes but I do remember him saying "it wasn't right."

There's plenty of racism to go around, there's plenty of hypocritical everything. But no food had to be snuck anywhere in NYC. Howard beach notwithstanding, there may be a slight superiority complex on the part of the regions that didn't, I don't know, actively have Jim Crow laws. Because we didn't actively have Jim Crow laws. While my grandfather was food-sneaking there are historical photographs of North Platte ND civilian canteen moms who have never likely seen black people in their entire ND lives hugging and giving birthday cakes to black troop trains as well as white.

So yes, I do not understand.

 

[JMohegan]

JM, it's this:



There is a very common tendency to paint the south (and to a lesser extent the west) with a broad brush of 'racist rednecks'. People get touchy about the characterization, especially when we're treated as being the backwards barbarians in comparison to great and enlightened Northern/Hollywood values. Given how the Klan was reborn in northern states like Ohio, and the examples WD listed, there's a lot of hypocrisy afoot. Not saying that you're part of it, but that's why we get pissed about that sort of thing.

Thank you, I appreciate you trying to explain.

That comment was written in direct response to something that WD wrote:

Southern culture has been under attack for years. It used to be the Georgia Dixie Redcoat Band. The Dixie was dropped. My flag has been changed twice. I don't think any school outside of Ole Miss can play Dixie. And not even sure if they still do. South Carolina can't fly the battle flag. Schools have been renamed.

In that post, HE is the one who equated "southern culture" with reverence for the confederate anthem and battle flag. Not me.

My response was, first, to point out that IF that is "southern culture," then it's surely the culture of white southerners ONLY.

There are African Americans living in the South, and therefore they are part of "southern culture" too. Yet surely they don't consider Dixie and the battle flag to be part of THEIR culture. That's why my immediate response to his post was to say: "You mean southern *white* culture." The point of my comment was to say: let's not forget that non-whites exist and have a valid place in that region.

The second part of my response to his post was to start asking why he considers those symbols to be part of his culture. Again, HE is the one who equated southern culture with appreciation for Dixie and the Confederate flag.

 

[LilyBart]

Yeah we are your little warrior cousins to the south. But Homburg gets it. And SW. And I wore the blue and spent my time on the cutting edge of the sword of freedom. And my brother went to Vietnam. My father in the merchant marines. He wasn't even a vet. Even though they had the highest death rate in WWII among any service.

My only regret is that my ancestor wasn't a better shot.

WD, I'm with JM here...what are you saying?

~LB

 

[ZRT]

There's plenty of racism to go around, there's plenty of hypocritical everything. But no food had to be snuck anywhere in NYC. Howard beach notwithstanding, there may be a slight superiority complex on the part of the regions that didn't, I don't know, actively have Jim Crow laws. Because we didn't actively have Jim Crow laws.

In American history, those considered to be part of 'lesser races' have been equated with primates, specifically apes. Blacks, of course, got this treatment. What's commonly overlooked is that Irish immigrants also got that same artistic degradation, and that was NYC and the Northeast. Immigrants in general were treated as subhumans and placed into horrid conditions in the factories of the northeast and had to fight their own war to get some measure of equality and human rights.

It's not just a southern thing. Heard any good polack jokes lately?

Thank you, I appreciate you trying to explain.

That comment was written in direct response to something that WD wrote:In that post, HE is the one who equated "southern culture" with reverence for the confederate anthem and battle flag. Not me.

My response was, first, to point out that IF that is "southern culture," then it's surely the culture of white southerners ONLY.

There are African Americans living in the South, and therefore they are part of "southern culture" too. Yet surely they don't consider Dixie and the battle flag to be part of THEIR culture. That's why my immediate response to his post was to say: "You mean southern *white* culture." The point of my comment was to say: let's not forget that non-whites exist and have a valid place in that region.

The second part of my response to his post was to start asking why he considers those symbols to be part of his culture. Again, HE is the one who equated southern culture with appreciation for Dixie and the Confederate flag.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, man. I got what you were saying and why, and was just trying to lay out for you why he blew up.

 

[WriterDom]

The second part of my response to his post was to start asking why he considers those symbols to be part of his culture. Again, HE is the one who equated southern culture with appreciation for Dixie and the Confederate flag.

Must be hard to wrap your mind around the fact that "your" most beloved general of the war and 18th president of the US was a slave owner.

It's a little like saying you hate gays while having your cock up Boy George's ass isn't it?

 

[intothewoods]

Must be hard to wrap your mind around the fact that "your" most beloved general of the war and 18th president of the US was a slave owner.

It's a little like saying you hate gays while having your cock up Boy George's ass isn't it?

Nah, I've said I hate gays while I had my cock up Boy George's ass and it wasn't the same thing at all.

 

[WriterDom]

Nah, I've said I hate gays while I had my cock up Boy George's ass and it wasn't the same thing at all.

Haha. We have some kick ass gardeners at our fetlife group don't we?

 

[JMohegan]

Must be hard to wrap your mind around the fact that "your" most beloved general of the war and 18th president of the US was a slave owner.

It's a little like saying you hate gays while having your cock up Boy George's ass isn't it?

Grant owned one slave, whom he set free in 1859. What this has to do with the confederate anthem and battle flag being part of "southern culture" today, I have no idea.

You keep ducking my question with nonsensical replies, WD.

 

[WriterDom]

Grant owned one slave, whom he set free in 1859. What this has to do with the confederate anthem and battle flag being part of "southern culture" today, I have no idea.

You keep ducking my question with nonsensical replies, WD.

4 of the first 5 presidents and 12 of the first 18 were slave owners. I don't see you throwing them under the bus with the South.

 

[WriterDom]

Grant owned one slave, whom he set free in 1859. What this has to do with the confederate anthem and battle flag being part of "southern culture" today, I have no idea.

You keep ducking my question with nonsensical replies, WD.

LOL So he only owned one slave? Isn't that like saying you only threw one baby off a cliff? Or you only lynched one black?

 

[Netzach]

In American history, those considered to be part of 'lesser races' have been equated with primates, specifically apes. Blacks, of course, got this treatment. What's commonly overlooked is that Irish immigrants also got that same artistic degradation, and that was NYC and the Northeast. Immigrants in general were treated as subhumans and placed into horrid conditions in the factories of the northeast and had to fight their own war to get some measure of equality and human rights.

It's not just a southern thing. Heard any good polack jokes lately?

Yes, I know. Free blacks in early NYC would actually leave neighborhoods when Irish moved in, not merely in self-preservation but because it was a literal tossup in the race to the bottom of the social ladder between the two groups.

The same grandfather who was sneaking food in Biloxi to the people he saw as fellow soldiers maybe, or maybe just people (even if he didn't especially want to live next door to them) grew up in a cold water flat on the LES. And he still came up with the conclusion "That ain't right." The message still managed to carry through all their paranoid pro-Israel-no-matter-what Rush listening mania that there's something fundamentally insane about a whole region of the country not allowing black men *in the service no less* to eat at the same counter.

 

[ZRT]

Yes, I know. Free blacks in early NYC would actually leave neighborhoods when Irish moved in, not merely in self-preservation but because it was a literal tossup in the race to the bottom of the social ladder between the two groups.

The same grandfather who was sneaking food in Biloxi to the people he saw as fellow soldiers maybe, or maybe just people (even if he didn't especially want to live next door to them) grew up in a cold water flat on the LES. And he still came up with the conclusion "That ain't right." The message still managed to carry through all their paranoid pro-Israel-no-matter-what Rush listening mania that there's something fundamentally insane about a whole region of the country not allowing black men *in the service no less* to eat at the same counter.

My father had a piece of that fight as well. When he came back from Vietnam, a bar owner in Virginia tried to kick out a couple of guys in his unit while they were playing pool. Their gunny had to come haul the entire outfit out of jail afterward, and I understand the property damage was pretty extensive.

Also, do you know the root of the Jim Crow laws?

 

[Netzach]

LOL So he only owned one slave? Isn't that like saying you only threw one baby off a cliff? Or you only lynched one black?

I think you have to take people with the grain of salt of their times. John Brown was one of the only white people to interact with black people as fellow human beings with their own desires, struggles and aspirations, to sit down and eat with them. Sure there were abolitionists, but the majority of them, Northern and Southern tended to see the people they were helping as a kind of childlike charge, not as endowed as they are but deserving of basic rights.

And he was by all accounts and standards, violently mentally ill. Even Douglas thought Harper's Ferry ill advised.

If you want to apply a modern standard to race relations in the 1860's maybe 1-6 white people might have been part of the solution, and Brown is arguable at that.

If there's no difference between the men who had one personal retainer (who they may have treated well or terribly or both at varying times) and 300 people living like animals in your moral compass, then yes, the North has no business discussing the question.

 

[Netzach]

Also, do you know the root of the Jim Crow laws?

Kind of a complicated question. Weren't they enacted immediately lest reconstruction actually enable blacks to move up the social ladder from slavery?

 

[ZRT]

Kind of a complicated question. Weren't they enacted immediately lest reconstruction actually enable blacks to move up the social ladder from slavery?

That was part of it, yes, but also the Republicans were moving to lock the freedmen in as a perpetual constituency that would essentially destroy the Democratic party and establish the Republicans as a permanent power. There was a self-defense aspect to Jim Crow that is typically overlooked, abhorrent as the laws were.

 

[Homburg]

In American history, those considered to be part of 'lesser races' have been equated with primates, specifically apes. Blacks, of course, got this treatment. What's commonly overlooked is that Irish immigrants also got that same artistic degradation, and that was NYC and the Northeast. Immigrants in general were treated as subhumans and placed into horrid conditions in the factories of the northeast and had to fight their own war to get some measure of equality and human rights.

The Irish just aren't mediagenic enough apparently. White people are allowed to abuse other white people, enslave them, oppress them, etc and it is okay. It's when y'all do it to people with different coloured skin that it starts to show up well in etchings and on camera.

It's not just a southern thing. Heard any good polack jokes lately?

My maternal grandfather was a polish immigrant coal miner. You want to talk about hearing some Polack jokes...