Richmond

[Homburg]

I don't think the South is more villified exactly. The experience of white ethnics is not remembered as vividly because of assimilation. Views have changed. Jew was an ethnic checkbox at one time, but it's not anymore. But I didn't learn that the Trail of Tears was justifiable or somehow a better deal than slavery. We Americans probably do, collectively, conveniently distance ourselves from the actions of our government. I wasn't personally responsible for the Trail of Tears. Or the internment camps during WWII. And there's a bit of bullshit to that, but I also don't display symbols from either of those times on my lawn.

I've said this before - the American flag has been associated with more villainy and horror in its' two plus centuries than the rebel was in its' short few years. So, yeah, we do fly symbols of those times.

And that is the core of the point. If you or I don't fly our American flag thinking "Yeah, this was the symbol of a slave-owning nation" then why is it so insane to think that some of those poor deluded hicks flying their evil rebel flag might just be not having those thoughts too?

How many symbols have ugly histories? St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland was the Church destroying every scrap of druidic culture it could find. "Ring around the rosie" was a rhyme about the Plague. The Christian cross was a Roman implement of execution. C'mon, lots of symbols have ugly pasts and have been re-imaged or flat reclaimed.

 

[intothewoods]

I've said this before - the American flag has been associated with more villainy and horror in its' two plus centuries than the rebel was in its' short few years. So, yeah, we do fly symbols of those times.

And that is the core of the point. If you or I don't fly our American flag thinking "Yeah, this was the symbol of a slave-owning nation" then why is it so insane to think that some of those poor deluded hicks flying their evil rebel flag might just be not having those thoughts too?

How many symbols have ugly histories? St Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland was the Church destroying every scrap of druidic culture it could find. "Ring around the rosie" was a rhyme about the Plague. The Christian cross was a Roman implement of execution. C'mon, lots of symbols have ugly pasts and have been re-imaged or flat reclaimed.

Well the original question was what has the confederate flag been reimaged to mean?

I personally find the mindless plastering of American flags on everything to be absolutely indicative of an inability or refusal to look critically at the totality of what the flag represents. It is complicated and dark and has been ugly. I can't imagine looking at an American flag and not thinking about all of that.

 

[Homburg]

Well the original question was what has the confederate flag been reimaged to mean?

And various parties have answered that question numerous times, only to find JM or others finding fault with the explanation, or just casting aspersions on it.

I personally find the mindless plastering of American flags on everything to be absolutely indicative of an inability or refusal to look critically at the totality of what the flag represents. It is complicated and dark and has been ugly. I can't imagine looking at an American flag and not thinking about all of that.

Okay, you're weird. I can respect that.

 

[WriterDom]

"Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late... It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision... It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties."
--- Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

 

[JMohegan]

And various parties have answered that question numerous times, only to find JM or others finding fault with the explanation, or just casting aspersions on it.

Please quote the post in which I find fault with an explanation, or cast aspersions on anyone's explanation of the meaning of the confederate flag.

 

[JMohegan]

"Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late... It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision... It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties."
--- Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

I have never met a single northerner who spoke of southern Civil War veterans or deceased soldiers with derision. Not in the classroom, and not anywhere else.

Respect for the military prowess of southern generals is central to the Civil War education I received. Outside the classroom, key places such as Gettysburg contain monuments honoring generals and soldiers on both sides of the conflict.

Nor was I taught that slavery is all the south was fighting for. Only an uneducated buffoon has never heard of the complicated history preceding the war, and the concept of state's rights.

Plantation elite are dead and gone. So too is Sherman. You're not the former, and I'm not the latter. There are unfair stereotypes on both sides.

 

[JMohegan]

I personally find the mindless plastering of American flags on everything to be absolutely indicative of an inability or refusal to look critically at the totality of what the flag represents. It is complicated and dark and has been ugly. I can't imagine looking at an American flag and not thinking about all of that.

With regard to USA flags, I've noticed that those who do the most flag waving and bellowing about patriotism seem to be the least patriotic. The first to urinate on the Constitution when it suits their purposes, and the last to honor the concept of equal rights for all.

 

[ZRT]

What really pissed me off, JM, is when you jacked off over over Lee's grave.

Don't even deny it. I saw you do it, fucker.

Even humping Stonewall's statue was mild in comparison.

(This is sarcasm, for those wondering.)

 

[WriterDom]

With regard to USA flags, I've noticed that those who do the most flag waving and bellowing about patriotism seem to be the least patriotic. The first to urinate on the Constitution when it suits their purposes, and the last to honor the concept of equal rights for all.

I've never seen anyone surround himself with more flags than Obama. Once he got elected.

 

[andrewgoogle]

To change the subject a bit, when I first moved to Richmond, I thought that I might be unhappy living here. Images of families of southern gentry, exclusivity, and snobbiness filled my mind. But the reality is far from my preconceptions. This has been such a great place to live. Everyone is so warm and friendly. I couldn't ask for better friends that the ones I have found here.

Just wanted to put in a positive word for the city in which I reside.

 

[JMohegan]

What really pissed me off, JM, is when you jacked off over over Lee's grave.

Don't even deny it. I saw you do it, fucker.

Even humping Stonewall's statue was mild in comparison.

(This is sarcasm, for those wondering.)

Ha!

I've never been to W&L, but would like to go.

 

[JMohegan]

To change the subject a bit, when I first moved to Richmond, I thought that I might be unhappy living here. Images of families of southern gentry, exclusivity, and snobbiness filled my mind. But the reality is far from my preconceptions. This has been such a great place to live. Everyone is so warm and friendly. I couldn't ask for better friends that the ones I have found here.

Just wanted to put in a positive word for the city in which I reside.

Everyone was warm and welcoming to me when I was in Richmond. I didn't have the chance to spend much time there, but from my brief experience I'd describe the people as very friendly indeed.

 

[ownedsubgal]

And various parties have answered that question numerous times, only to find JM or others finding fault with the explanation, or just casting aspersions on it.



Okay, you're weird. I can respect that.

i must be weird too, because i've always had conflicting feelings about the american flag and have never viewed it as a symbol of pride and patriotism. up to 6th grade every morning before classes started we would have to all stand, place the hand over the heart and recite the pledge of allegiance. when i was in second grade i was educated enough to know that this country has an ugly history particularly of racial persecution, oppression, annihilation. i had recently learned about the slavery of my ancestors in a way that made it real to me...old family pictures and locks of hair. i was also totally obsessed with native american culture and had read many children's and young adult books on the subject.

so, that year, second grade, i stopped reciting the pledge of allegiance. i refused to even stand during the assembly each morning. i was not alone, there were 2 or 3 Jehovah's Witness kids who had never stood. still, folks made a big deal of it and teachers tried to reprimand me for it...i didn't care, i had made a decision not to salute or pledge allegiance to a flag/nation with such a history, and i have not saluted, said the pledge or acknowledged the flag in any way since. i also do not acknowledge the star spangled banner when it is sung in public.

 

[JMohegan]

I've never seen anyone surround himself with more flags than Obama. Once he got elected.

This started way back in the primaries.

I respected his "I don't need a flag pin to prove I'm a patriot" stance, but understood why he gave in.

 

[Netzach]

I've never seen anyone surround himself with more flags than Obama. Once he got elected.

Gee I wonder why?

Not the legions of FOX addled still waiting for him to don a turban and start the jihad.

 

[Homburg]

Please quote the post in which I find fault with an explanation, or cast aspersions on anyone's explanation of the meaning of the confederate flag.

It ain't worth it, JM. I learned a long time ago that you do you best work with implications, and can thus deny, deny, and deny as it suits you. I could spend forty minutes looking up posts and giving complex explanations as to what this post implied or who this was really a pointed jab at, but it would waste my time, and anyone else's that read it.

If it is any consolation, I do respect your abilities as a... Well, I would say debater, but this is more of a cross between debate and conversation. Not sure where to class that. Frikken internet rewriting the dialectical map.

--

i must be weird too

So you know, I did not mean that in a derogatory way. I consider a lot of people, including myself, weird, and do not see it as a negative in any way.

 

[Netzach]

Put me in the "really weird" column. I never felt anything when the anthem was being sung but a sick kind of discomfort. Like if someone whizzed on my leg. Huge groups of people getting really emotional must have some bad genetic memory juju for me.

 

[Homburg]

Put me in the "really weird" column.

I was pretty unhappy with the Pledge actually. Still am. I dislike the concept quite a bit, and just didn't say it when we were called on to do so. I'd stand, because that was showing to the flag, but the Pledge, not so much.

I've also had teachers question me on it. My explanation was that I had philosophical differences with it, but was not disrupting, so did it matter?

 

[Netzach]

I was pretty unhappy with the Pledge actually. Still am. I dislike the concept quite a bit, and just didn't say it when we were called on to do so. I'd stand, because that was showing to the flag, but the Pledge, not so much.

I've also had teachers question me on it. My explanation was that I had philosophical differences with it, but was not disrupting, so did it matter?

We didn't do the pledge and were liable to learn history from the perspective of those pissed upon.

The Betsey Ross story's kind of great. Other than that, no major emotions one way or another.

 

[ownedsubgal]

--



So you know, I did not mean that in a derogatory way. I consider a lot of people, including myself, weird, and do not see it as a negative in any way.

oh understood, totally. i consider "really weird" to be quite the compliment as some of the best examples of humanity do tend to fall under that category.

 

[WriterDom]

Gee I wonder why?

Not the legions of FOX addled still waiting for him to don a turban and start the jihad.

I can see one flag. Or framing yourself in two. But it's a flag carnival with this guy. I would say it's a flag stimulus plan but they are all probably from China.

I'm ready for an Appomattox moment here. I don't think bickering on two threads about pretty much the same thing is fun for many.

 

[Homburg]

We didn't do the pledge and were liable to learn history from the perspective of those pissed upon.

The Betsey Ross story's kind of great. Other than that, no major emotions one way or another.

The Pledge bothered me in two ways. First, it struck me as awful Orwellian to stand up and declare allegiance every day. I'm an American. I shouldn't have to make such public declarations. And I was just flat uncomfortable with the Eisenhower era add-on to the Pledge, and very much uncomfortable with the reasoning behind it.

--

oh understood, totally. i consider "really weird" to be quite the compliment as some of the best examples of humanity do tend to fall under that category.

Okay, cool. Didn't want people thinking that I was deriding them for something I do. That's not my thing.

--

I'm ready for an Appomattox moment here. I don't think bickering on two threads about pretty much the same thing is fun for many.

Came to that realisation too.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I put out our American flag every morning on our front porch. As I raise it up I think about our American service men and women deployed. I continued this while my husband was in Iraq, when he came home and then again when he was in Afghanistan. I especially remember as I raise the flag 2 very good friends of ours who were not able to return home. One who left a wife and 5 young children at home.

I raise our flag because even with all our imperfections and elements in our history that I am not proud of, I am proud to be an American and I am proud to be a member of our military family.

 

[JMohegan]

It ain't worth it, JM. I learned a long time ago that you do you best work with implications, and can thus deny, deny, and deny as it suits you. I could spend forty minutes looking up posts and giving complex explanations as to what this post implied or who this was really a pointed jab at, but it would waste my time, and anyone else's that read it.

If it is any consolation, I do respect your abilities as a... Well, I would say debater, but this is more of a cross between debate and conversation. Not sure where to class that. Frikken internet rewriting the dialectical map.

Calling me disingenuous and then saying you respect my skills is not "consolation," no.

Insulting me is not something I appreciate, and refusing to back up your assertion is not something I respect.

 

[intothewoods]

And various parties have answered that question numerous times, only to find JM or others finding fault with the explanation, or just casting aspersions on it.



Okay, you're weird. I can respect that.

But I'm not weird. Lots of people are uncomfortable with displaying a symbol that has some negative association with it without any hint of reflection.

With regard to USA flags, I've noticed that those who do the most flag waving and bellowing about patriotism seem to be the least patriotic. The first to urinate on the Constitution when it suits their purposes, and the last to honor the concept of equal rights for all.

Pretty much.

I've never seen anyone surround himself with more flags than Obama. Once he got elected.

Oh please.

I put out our American flag every morning on our front porch. As I raise it up I think about our American service men and women deployed. I continued this while my husband was in Iraq, when he came home and then again when he was in Afghanistan. I especially remember as I raise the flag 2 very good friends of ours who were not able to return home. One who left a wife and 5 young children at home.

I raise our flag because even with all our imperfections and elements in our history that I am not proud of, I am proud to be an American and I am proud to be a member of our military family.

I respect this, ecstaticsub, and I respect the sacrifice military families have made and make for our country.