Question for Swing community: double standard on Bisexuality?

[Biorgium]

Despite my AV, I've never tried the Lifestyle and I doubt I'll ever - I just enjoy the fantasy a lot. My wife and I have a "never say never" openness about Polyamory, but that's quite different from swinging really.

Many things I've read about Swing/Group sex mention that female bisexual behaviour is highly appreciated by the community, but male bisexuality is generally unwelcome.

Even the women seem to back this, which I find a bit surprising.

Isn't this a double standard?

This makes it appear that most people - both women and men -find female bisexualty to be arousing but male bisexuality is a turn-off. Why would this be?

 

[Vixandra]

Because socially its okay for a woman to find another woman attractive but its not for a man to find a man attractive.

Why?

I think its because we have a mostly male oriented society, though that's changing, and its okay for men to like women so it must be okay for women to do so as well.

I don't agree with it- I find men attractive so it doesn't bother me when another man finds them attractive too. 'Course I'm bisexual, so am a bit more open minded then a majority of my fellow Americans.

 

[obstinate fawn]

I also have been wondering about that same thing lately. I agree that it seems to be a double standard. I am a swinger, and am a bifem. My current SO is also bi, actually bicurious. I love seeing him with another man. I admit, maybe part of it is because it is so taboo. (My rebel side coming out?) I also think it is so courageous of the biguys to say that they are bi, since it is so frowned upon in the swing lifestyle. Somehow, biguys know other biguys without asking if they are or not, so we have had some pretty GOOD (wild) biparties.

As to why the biguys are frowned unwelcome, I really believe there are many people who say they are against male bisexuality that only say it is because they would be frowned upon if they said anything otherwise.

JMHO

 

[Eilan]

I find same-sex encounters to be erotic regardless of the sex of the participants.

I think porn's to blame for some of the attitudes that you've mentioned, Biorgium, and I'm saying that only half-jokingly. I mean, think about how common girl-girl action is in a lot of "mainstream" porn. It's almost like it's trendy for women to be bi.

I know that having two women at once seems to be the Ultimate Male Fantasy, but my husband is one of the few men out there who isn't a big fan of this. If another woman offered to join us, I don't think he'd turn it down, but it's not something that we're actively seeking (of course, we're not actively seeking anything at the moment).

I think a guy who decides to participate in threesome/foursome/moresome involving one or more men had better be pretty darn secure in his sexuality, regardless of his sexual orientation. Not every guy's cut out to handle incidental contact that group situations might offer. If your cock turns inside-out at the thought of brushing up against another man's genitals, then DP isn't for you.

 

[Biorgium]

It's almost like it's trendy for women to be bi.

Is that why girl-girl seems more acceptable - even among women - than guy-guy is?

I can easily understand why men would prefer to see girl-girl. I'm just mystified that apparently even many women would rather see girl-girl than see guy-guy.

 

[silverwhisper]

biorgium: i agree that it's completely a double-standard, but its own screwed up logic is sadly consistent. it's basically a fear of gay (male) sex, IMHO.

as already noted, girl-girl action is considered mainstream, and i'll go farther than eilan: i think it is hip for women to be bi nowadays.

but man-man? out come all the stereotypes and homophobia. i really believe that's at the heart of it.

ed

 

[bisexplicit]

Is that why girl-girl seems more acceptable - even among women - than guy-guy is?

I can easily understand why men would prefer to see girl-girl. I'm just mystified that apparently even many women would rather see girl-girl than see guy-guy.

It turns guys on for girls to be bisexual - so some of them do it for just that reason.

As for women not liking gay sex, I'm really not sure that thats true. It'd be an interesting poll.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

A VERY interesting poll. I'm a swinger, and I have no problem with bisexuality of either kind. I love it, as a matter of fact. Of course, I AM a bisexual man.

 

[Cockyfox]

As a straight chick, I find the idea of two guys gettin' it on erotic. I think more people like it, but are unwilling to admit it.

 

[silverwhisper]

so how many times have you seen brokeback mountain anyway, CF?

ed

 

[Cockyfox]

Would you believe me if I said none?
*wink*

 

[silverwhisper]

no

not given what you've said elsewhere about the idea.

ed

 

[Cockyfox]

waiting for the DVD

 

[silverwhisper]

mm-hm.

and i believe you.

[/straightface]



ed

 

[Guest]

 

[silverwhisper]

bi: as the good book says, ask and ye shall receive. here you go. :>

ed

 

[bisexplicit]

bi: as the good book says, ask and ye shall receive. here you go. :>

ed

I knew if I mentioned making a poll, that you would do it.

 

[Rick Forbes]

I mean this in all respect, so please, whatever your political or philosophical orientation, know that I am not namecalling, dismissing, or condescending here.

It has been my experience that swingers are, in general, a bit more conservative in their orientation and beliefs than the general population. From our conversations, I have gathered that the recreational sex many married swingers couples enjoy works best for them against a backdrop of an otherwise fairly conventional, restrained, and measured life, and that traditional masculinity is very important to large numbers of both men and women in the lifestyle. This is not to say that women and their needs are marginalized in this world - far from it. Courtesy, even gallantry toward women and respect for their choices seems to be a crucial part of many swinging husbands' outlook on life. But I just don't see the swinging community as being on the forefront of some kind of revolution in traditional gender roles or sexuality. These wonderful people are, quite literally, doing their own thing and working hard at making it work for them. And God bless them all.

 

[bisexplicit]

It has been my experience that swingers are, in general, a bit more conservative in their orientation and beliefs than the general population.

This surprises me.

I can't say I know anyone who is a swinger, or that I know much about the lifestyle, but I just assumed, that since the whole point is fucking people aside from your spouse, that the community, as a whole, would be more liberal.

 

[Norajane]

Despite my AV, I've never tried the Lifestyle and I doubt I'll ever - I just enjoy the fantasy a lot. My wife and I have a "never say never" openness about Polyamory, but that's quite different from swinging really.

Many things I've read about Swing/Group sex mention that female bisexual behaviour is highly appreciated by the community, but male bisexuality is generally unwelcome.

Even the women seem to back this, which I find a bit surprising.

Isn't this a double standard?

This makes it appear that most people - both women and men -find female bisexualty to be arousing but male bisexuality is a turn-off. Why would this be?

Cause straight guys like watching women together, but not men, and they sure as hell don't want some guy touching their dicks - they're not "homos"!

As to why the women might not be into it, it could be threatening to them - what if her husband starts to prefer men? While guys aren't threatened by women together - that just means they're horny sluts, or so they prefer to think.

 

[Mr. Mann]

I tend to look at this issue like this...

From what I have experienced in life... most women seem to be able to find other women physically attractive. They notice pretty women more so than guys notice handsome men, you know?

It makes sense in my male mind because women are sensuous and curvy and beautiful... like a sports car.

Men are ... utilitarian and rough, like a work truck.

OTOH, women generally *tend* to require a mental and/or emotional connection to find other people sexually attractive. (There are LOTS of exceptions to all of this, I'm just speaking very generally for the sake of discussion.) For women, there tends to be a larger mental/emotional component to attraction than with men, who tend to be predominantly visual, physical, and emotional/mental connections are not as large of a component.

So... you've got gals who appreciate the physical beauty of other women and also may find them mentall/emotionally attractive.

And you've got guys who don't usually find other men particularly physcally attractive and don't often become attracted to a guy because of a mental/emotional connection.

I can't look at a guy and think/feel "cute". It just doesn't occur to me any more than being able to distinguish between 134 different shades of blue.

However, if I am in the moment, I can certianly appreciate and enjoy the eroticism of another guy being there and participating. I'll also admit to being a little bi-curious, but for every thing I can think of that I may be curious about, I can think of two things about sex with another guy that would be about as sexually exciting to me as re-roofing the house. I just don't find guys as sexually attractive and as women. Whereas I think alot of women are able to more easily appreciate other women as well as men.

Why I certainly am not a swinging veteran, or anything... but I'd have to agree with Rick Forbes, too based on my experiences.

[Edited to add: So... I don't think it is so much a double standard as it is simply a reflection of the reality that men and women are different.]

Anyway... just some thougts.

 

[wicked woman]

<snip>

It makes sense in my male mind because women are sensuous and curvy and beautiful... like a sports car.

Men are ... utilitarian and rough, like a work truck.

<snip>

*Please excuse this high jack*

Mr. Mann, please don't take my comments personally...and btw welcome to Lit. Hope you enjoy. I only quote you because you're the most recent man to comment on this and personally it bothers me when I hear it...unfortunately you are definitely not alone in having these thoughts.

I can understand that a man, who is only/predominately attracted to women might think this way. What bothers me is that as a woman, who finds some men particularly attractive...dare I say at times has been almost in a state of worship over a man's body...I find comments like this such a put down of both the male anatomy and the opinion of women who 'worship' the male body.

I don't think at all that a man's body is "utilitarian and rough". It can be smooth as silk....and utterly exquisite. It may not have the same curves as a woman...but trust me it has curves...as any butt loving woman will tell you.

Frankly I'm more inclined to think that comments such as yours are just a result of a particular man's attraction to women and not men. I'm not sure a man who is attracted primarily or solely to men would think the same way.

ok just had to rant for a minute. While I agree that some women are snesuous and have exquisite curves...you'll never get me to agree that a man's body is utilitarian and rough.

*this thread may now return to its regular swinging*

 

[Mr. Mann]

No offense at all.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Frankly, I have rarely heard a woman (or a gay, or bi man, for that matter) speak of the male form in such a glowing way.

It's actually really nice to hear from someone who thinks men look sexy. I guess I've failed to appreciate this point of view.

 

[wicked woman]

No offense at all.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Frankly, I have rarely heard a woman (or a gay, or bi man, for that matter) speak of the male form in such a glowing way.

It's actually really nice to hear from someone who thinks men look sexy. I guess I've failed to appreciate this point of view.

Well I can't believe I'm the only woman who feels this way. After all the guys posting on Am Pics Forum have an audience.

I think it's a case of vive la difference although I could speak as glowingly about a few women too

 

[Guest]

Just 2 more cents

I'm making a wild guess that few people here have ever heard of "slash" fiction. This particular outcropping of the fanfiction usually seen in SF and fantasy tv/book/movie fandoms. It came originally out of (mostly women) writing erotic/romantic stories about Star Trek's Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock. (Kirk/Spock or K/S -- that's where the "slash" comes from).

Now, pretty much any movie or TV show that has two male characters in it can be slashed. Some slash stories are about the actors rather than the characters. There's a niche for just boy bands, for pete's sake. There are hundreds of thousands of such stories on line with all kind s of pairings and groupings. It's been going on for a good 40 years (I first became aware of it in the mid 70's, and it was a few years old then). There are websites, 'zines, even tracks at SF/F conventions and groups devoted to slash fiction. (Go type "slash fiction" into a search engine and see what comes up.)

My point? These pairings are almost exclusively male/male, (female/female is now a separate segment) and are predominately written by women. The stories tend to concentrate more on the romance and emotion, although the sex is usually graphic. There's a fairly recognizeable segment of women who find two men having sex VERY erotic.

Another segment of this market is in manga comics (Japanese comics). Yaoi is a growing market segment and deals exclusively with romance and sex between male characters and is marketed almost entirely to women.

The interesting part of this is that this fiction isn't all THAT popular among gay men (at least, they don't make up a visible portion of the slash audience), and that the larger portion of readers and writers are women. The focus is different from porn in that there is a lot of concentration on feelings, romance, relationships, and all that stuff women tend to like, as well as the sex (which in some cases is pretty skimpy because many women just don't know how men actually HAVE sex with each other).

Whenever I hear someone talk about how men find girl/girl action hot but women don't like male/male action, I laugh. Many women don't get all that turned on by the simply "tab A into slot B" stuff of average porn, and gay porn in general is still marketed toward the visually stimulated male (with a load of cliches that don't interest many women." But slash fiction? It's another subculture that aims at women and what women like.

From what I've gathered over the years of watching slash grow and change, I've always had the idea that it was a "Secret", tied in a lot to cultural "rules" about women and sexuality.

On a slightly different note, what I've seen (and it isn't all that extensive) of girl/girl porn scenes are that they are more like what MEN would do with a woman. The porn I've seen from lesbian producers tends to be different, with more emphasis on the relationships and so forth (in a relative sense).

So maybe there is just a huge female market for male/male or bi-male erotica that is untapped because most erotica/porn is made for men along male oriented guidelines. The idea of erotica/porn marketed to women is pretty recent and "revolutionary", so it might even be considered "conservative" at this point. Male oriented erotica/porn is THOUSANDS of years old. Give it time

.