Queer assumptions

[RisiaSkye]

So, we've talked at various times about the assumptions that people face based on their looks. We've talked about the false assumptions that inform our understanding of each others' sexuality. But, one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the "queer assumptions" that gay men and lesbians face.

Here's an example:
I used to work with a woman named Lisa. She was smart, sarcastically funny, and incredibly good at her job; she trained me, and eventually, I took over her job when she left a year and a half later. From the first time I met her, I *knew* she was a lesbian, the way you can just tell sometimes. This knowledge had no bearing on my thoughts or feelings about her, it was just part of the standard package of information you get whenever you meet someone (Good haircut. Lousy fashion sense. Firm handshake. Whatever.). Or, so I thought.

Over the course of the nearly 2 years that we worked together, I got to know her pretty well. We saw each other socially, sometimes as a foursome--me, her, my husband, and her girlfriend. We all got along well, and had some laughs. I thought things were completely cool between us all, and felt completely nonchalant about her sexuality. "I'm a San Francisco girl," I told myself, and secretly congratulated myself for not making the kind of comments that I attribute to ugly ignorance (that four letter "D" word being a prime example). Believe me, I am not proud of this, it's just the reality & I want to give the whole picture.

One afternoon on a lunch break, she told a story about a car accident she had been in several years before. I was listening, enjoying her dry delivery of a pretty funny story. Right up until the point when she mentioned her *boyfriend* being in the car with her. My surprise must have been painfully evident, as she stopped her narration and just looked at me. Thinking back on it, she looked a little sad. I don't know if that's my imagination, or guilty feelings, or if it was real. All she said was, "Everybody's got a past." I didn't know what to say or how to respond. It was, to date, the only truly awkward moment in a lengthy and generally very easy casual friendship.

It wasn't until that moment that I realized how many completely bullshit assumptions I had attached to her--as though her sexuality was a given, as though I had any right to make assumptions or be surprised that she'd dated men. I have rarely felt as stupid, as thoroughly misguided, as I felt right then.

Why was I surprised?
Why would it matter to me at all whether she had dated men or not?

Has anyone else has an experience like this--where you think you're coming into a situation without unfair baggage, only to learn later that you are (or were) kidding yourself? What did you do? How did it affect your relationship?

For the gay/bi/les/pan/trans crowd--have you faced these kinds of assumptions? How do you feel about them? Did it/does it change how you feel about the person who holds them?


edited for typing

 

[Weird Harold]

I've had those moments of "readjustment" about what I "knew" about someone several times. Never anything regarding the person's sexuality in my case, but it can be disconcerting for a bit as the mind rearranges the assumptions we'eve made about someone.

 

[Laurel]

I've found myself goosestepping around people who I suspect (but don't know for sure) of being gay/les. Instead of talking about "boyfriends" or "girlfriends", I'll use the deliberately vague "significant other". There's nothing wrong with that, really, except that they could (if they knew me enough) pick up the difference in my speech and know that I'm making assumptions about something that I know nothing about. Even if they don't know, I know. It makes me uncomfortable somehow. It's a lot easier knowing a person's orientation than not, but at the same time...is it any of my business who they choose to sleep with? It really isn't, unless they choose to share that with me - and even then it's not really my business.

 

[seXieleXie]

being bisexual and having a lesbian girlfriend made for a lot of moments like the kind you mentioned risia. if i made a comment about a boyfriend or that i thought a man was attractive it made many of her friends who didn't know me uncomfortable.
the thing is, everyone has prejudices. everyone makes assumptions and falls prey to stereotypes. i'm a lot less likely to do that in regards to sexuality, but i still do it in many other areas. when i get smacked in the face with an example of my own narrow mindedness i try to learn from it. don't be too hard on yourself for being human, it's a common failing just try to learn from this and keep it in mind for the future.
as for your friendship with this woman, i'm sure this isn't the first time she's experianced that kind of reaction. my suggestion is to be honest, apologize and move on. if she's any kind of a friend she won't hold it against you.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Harold, I definitely know what you mean...I have those readjusts too, obviously. Usually, though, it doesn't cross over into feeling like part of the "problem." If that makes any sense.

Laurel's comment is more what I meant--that weird little tapdance we do around relationships and sexuality, and all the baggage that comes with that.

Lexie--thanks for you comments. She is a real friend, and this is so much water under the bridge at this point. But, I've never forgotten it, and I doubt if I will. I'm just not sure *what* I've learned from this--and what I should have or could have done differently. Any thoughts?

 

[seXieleXie]

well risia it sounds to me like you learned something about yourself. you realized you aren't quite as open minded (or non judgemental or however you want to lable it) as you would like to be. this post is evidence to me that you will think twice before making such assumptions again.
as for what you should/could have done differently... of course hindsight is 20/20 and you could have hidden your shock from your friend, but i don't think you necessarily should have. just being yourself, "bad" reactions and all, is always the best way to go in relationships

 

[Never]

RisiaSkye:
"Has anyone else has an experience like this--where you think you're coming into a situation without unfair baggage, only to learn later that you are (or were) kidding yourself?"

Errrmm. Nope.
Score one for the Neverkins.

"For the gay/bi/les/pan/trans crowd--have you faced these kinds of assumptions? How do you feel about them? Did it/does it change how you feel about the person who holds them?"

bilespantran ? Sounds like a mechanic's tool.
I'm certain I have faced incorrect assumptions but I can't think of anything.. though some are surprised I enjoy gay male erotica. Most of the false assumptions people have about me are based on my image as a somewhat soft-spoken, quiet, plain dressing young woman.

 

[RisiaSkye]

RisiaSkye:
"Has anyone else has an experience like this--where you think you're coming into a situation without unfair baggage, only to learn later that you are (or were) kidding yourself?"

Errrmm. Nope.
Score one for the Neverkins.

So you've never realized you harbored assumptions you weren't previously aware of? Or you don't kid yourself--and you're fully aware that you hold unfair assumptions, thus negating the "kidding yourself" angle? Clarification, please.

 

[Debbie]

I try to think of myself as broadminded. It doesn't matter to me what a person's so called sexual orientation is. BUT it doesn't mean that I can't be caught unaware's and have the expression of , "Are you really?" Surprise, we aren't always as broadminded as we think we are.
IMHO. Honesty is the best policy. Telling that person," Damn for some reason I thought you were... such and such."
We can all make assumptions. Whether it be the colour of someone's hair, their body shape, the way their voice will sound. their sexual orientation, (bi, straight, into BDSM, gay, trans gender, transexual, beliefs... whatever. )
I used to work with a lady who was bi, I assumed she was a "butch" lesbian. She was a very nice person, funny, articulate and damn fine company. We had a conversation after work one day where she told me that she found me sexually attractive but that I wasn't 'open' to her at all. After a long chat I listened to her telling me her assumptions of who I was and what I was about. I then told her my version. We ended up great friends till she left work and we lost contact.
Nothing matters more to me than who a person is.

 

[Bigdog]

Risia, I guess I don't see where you come up with the notion of unfair assumptions. Knowing that a person who is currently living the lesbian life wasn't always doing so is beyond the scope of the average human. Sometimes assumtions are a way of filling in the dead spaces in history. What your friend did before you met her has no bearing on anything, unless she decides to share personal facts with you. The assumptions are then replaced with the real story and you adapt. There is nothing unfair about it, so don't beat yourself up. You accepted your friend for who she is now, and frankly that is more than a lot of people can do these days.

 

[Camille]

Risia,
As someone who has frequently been on the other side of the assumptions I tell you I don’t pay attention. At my job most women and men assume I am bi or a “lipstick lesbian” The women don’t treat me any differently and the men still flirt. I take some comfort in their attempt to be PC. I really don’t discuss my private life in the office. My sister is gay, and I hang with her and her friends so I guess I sorta picked up the rep. But that is only because many of them are militant gay. You know T-shirts that say “Dyke” and such.

During a gay pride parade my boss a dear woman asked me if I wanted to leave early that day. I said no. I could tell she wanted to say something else but I just smiled. I tell you relax your torturing yourself for nothing.

 

[Black_Bird]

My Best Friend...

My best friend is one of those situations... He was one of those shy guys that never thought they would lose their virginity - and the day he told me he lost it to another man was quite a suprise to me, particularly because homosexuality has always ran opposite of his spirituality (He's actively Christian). I think our friendship actually deepened that day, he knows he can confide anything to me and I will accept him for who he is and I know he would do the same for me. That's what true brotherhood is about, isn't it?

He is now happily in a relationship with a girl that treats him decently - but when ever he and I are out alone, I still catch him eyeing up other guys. Hey - we all have to be ourselves, right?

 

[Lost Cause]

Labels are a part of life, that is the tribal marking we've done for thousands of years. As long as you use the "live and let live" philosophy, nothing will be an awkward situation. As long as noone threatens my way of life by force, I don't care what they percieve themselves to be, you simply are being you. I worked with a guy that showed me how to do my job, and is an excellent worker. I had no assumptions toward him, other than he was fun to work with. One day, we were talking about the military where he said he was kicked out for being gay. I said that was such bullshit for the government to waste all that training and money to throw out an obviously superb person for off duty lifestyles. I would fight back to back with this guy, the sidebar that he's gay means nothing.
Being in the biker lifestyle teaches alot about perceptions, I still have people lock their car doors when I come up to a stoplight. It doesn't matter that I'm smiling and clowning with their kids in back, with the kids laughing back. I'm just trying to plant a seed in their young minds that bikers laugh and play, besides tearing car doors off! (not to mention that a great deal of bikers look like one of the village people....perception?)
Have a great holiday!
Don't drink and drive, you might hit a bump and spill your drink!

 

[fgarvb1]

people are people,

thats the beginning and the end of it all.

this may sound strange coming from someone in the land of rednecks; maybe it's the way i was brought up...who knows.

i just hope that my friends choices are HUMAN male or female!

Trust me on this i have met some weird ones!

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Strange this may seem to say but Nessus was surpried pleasantly when I asked about the other half, and not worried whether it was male, female or French!

I dont tapdance around or get worried or afraid about things, to the best of my knowledge I dont stereotype and dont box people into things they aren't.

I permanentally face incorrect assumptions about every single thing about me:
My hair - It supposedly means I'm a drunken layabout pot smoking hippy
My walk - I'm gay
My flirtiness - I'm not to be trusted

Water under the bridge, I am who I am not who you make me out to be, and I can take anything that anyone thinks.

Its life, we all get through it somehow

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Re: people are people,

i just hope that my friends choices are HUMAN male or female!

Juspar, TELL me that sheep was human in disguise please!

 

[Gingersnap]

I think most of my assumptions are not about people's sexual orientation. I assume everyone is sexual and since most people have some same sex experience it is not a niche I use to classify people.

I find myself making more assumptions about the way someone dresses although I have gotten better. LOL it was proably going to catholic school that made me think the world would dress in a uniform. Now being in the medical profession dress is often a code for your work role. It sometimes takes a concious effort on my part not to use that same means of classification away from work.

It is funny but the longer I work in the field the more aware I am of nonverbal conversation and clues. Just as I am scarely aware of observing physical signs of disease states as I walk along a street. I have to constantly challenge myself on the role of these observations in how I interact with people.

I know this much from my work. You will always be surprized at what you find in people.

 

[alltherage]

I think my love of women puts me at some risk for making false assumptions. I am very aware about keeping my assumptions in check. I learned a long time ago that my biases could keep me from some very special things.

I met a woman a long time ago and assumed that I had no chance with her. She was from India and I just assumed that she would have no interest in a relationship with another woman. We became friends spent a great deal of time together. Sexual discussions did not happen. I think we both felt something beyond friendship early on but there were few signals given by either of us. I am certain i contained mine and equally certain i misread hers.

The relationship became intimate almost accidentally. When I think about it now it is almost dreamlike but what i know for certain is it was wonderful. I also know I came close to never having that experience because of my assumptions.

I agree with Laurel. A persons sexual prefference is none of my business. I live in a rural area that is very traditional. I have rarely met people in this area who appear to have my interests. I do know that appearences mean little. I try to live my life in an open manner so that I do not miss the next one. I really don't think I have ever been afraid to ask someone about there significant other. If I am at all interested i put the question simply. "Are you involved?" works for me.

 

[Juspar Emvan]

Re: Re: people are people,

Juspar, TELL me that sheep was human in disguise please!

I tell ya no-one ever saw me with the sheep, and she seems to be missing, unavailable for comment. I did not have sexual relations with that ewe!


As to assumptions, hell yeah I make them. When faced with incomplete information, we need to fill in the blanks with assumptions so we can fully interact with a person. But even when my assumptions turn out wrong, and I am surprised, I move on, in the end it's not really a big deal one way or another.

 

[paganangel]

risia

don't beat yourself up kitten. there's only one thing you could have done differently; when she mentionoed her boyfriend you could have said, "Hold the phone! boyfriend?!" it would have led to a conversation and she couldn't have been upset by an assumption. there's nothing wrong with them. people very often assume i'm gay. doesn't bother me. if it did then there'd be something wrong with ME.

 

[Never]

RisiaSkye:
"So you've never realized you harbored assumptions you weren't previously aware of? Or you don't kid yourself--and you're fully aware that you hold unfair assumptions, thus negating the "kidding yourself" angle? Clarification, please."

In the original question you used the term 'unfair baggage' and now you're changing it to 'assumptions'. You can't escape assumptions, if I toss an apple into the air I assume that it will come back down and I'll only be aware of my assumption if that apple instead hovers in mid air. Yet, I wouldn't consider that 'unfair baggage' - even though I know that gravity is still called a theory in scientific circles.

Likewise, when I submitted my post I conjectured that you would question it. I was responding to your question in your thread, I realize that my wording was vague, and in the past you've requested I clarify my meanings. That's five reasons that supported my conjecture; if all five weren't there I wouldn't have made that conjecture at all. Did I assume that you would question me further though? Not hardly - though I could have and it wouldn't have been 'unfair baggage'.

I know that I'm arguing over schematics but I believe that if I don't you'll simply think I don't know what I'm talking about. Human relations are a messy science and it's easy to get confused when the words we use have sweeping definitions.

The terms 'assumption' and 'unfair baggage' are too open to definition for me so I'm going to introduce my Hierarchy of Belief. (You know it's important because it's capitalized)


Guess: You've heard of or observed someone briefly and you're making a guess about them. You know that you're only guessing, you know that there's a high probability that you're wrong but it's also possible that you're right.

Conjecture: You've learned more, or at least you think you have. You're making what you consider to be an 'educated' guess. I think of this as a spider's web, your starting points are the information you've gained and your conjectures are where two strands meet.

Assumption: As human being we like to consider one another as a whole, we're not always logical when we do this but with enough information (biased or unbiased) we start making assumptions on how another is going to act, assumptions on what this person it like. Using what we've learned (conjectures) and what we think (our own personal map of the universe) we create assumptions about the 'blank' areas a person presents us.

Conclusion: This is when you turn your assumption into a fact. A person is this is your mind. Period. Think no more about it.

There's also a level before guess that I would call indefinite or unknown, but I couldn't find a word that meant that and fit grammatically into the same niche as the other words.

I'd like to stress that no matter what level you're at, you could be right or wrong. There are many times when your conclusions about another person are wrong and your conjectures are dead on. Risia Skye, your 'unfair baggage' has nothing to do with making the conclusion that she was a lesbian instead of bisexual, it has to do with the fact that you made the wrong conclusion. You ran, face first, into the wall of your own invalid conclusion and you're now wiser for it.

I still haven't answered your question yet. Sorry.

I rarely reach an invalid conclusion or assumption because I don't make that many conclusions or assumptions about people. It's not because I'm wiser or I have great observational skills or that I'm open minded; it's because I'm indifferent to most of the people around me. Lavender has made the comment, several times, that while she occasionally walks six feet off the ground I'm always flying miles above reality.

I find people interesting. I also find goldfish and crickets interesting. I've come to the conclusion that I can never really know a person, not only that but I never feel as though I understand others at all.

I suppose I'm trying to say that I have assumptions about my self that make it almost impossible to make conclusions about others.

 

[sexy-girl]

i just would like to say that i found never's post amazingly beautiful and open you probably revealed more about your character in that post then you meant too but its nice to read

i found myself agreeing with a lot of things you said in your post

i myself dont make many assumptions about people ... however i seem to be a fairly good judge of character and i can quite safely say that person is good or bad ... but im poor and working out the rest of the stuff im not good about making assumptions about people so i just mostly take people at face value and go on my gut feeling of if i feel they are good or bad ... trustworthy or not


as about the question of what happened between you and your friend risia skye i wouldnt worry about it ... a lot of times when people discover they are gay/lesbians its not something they automatically accept or automatically go's "bing" in their heads ... maybe she is a lesbian maybe she's bisexual but that shouldnt effect how you think of her ... being gay is kind of complicated and most people will have storys to tell of how they discovered for themselves that they were gay .... perhaps your friend revealed parts of her life that she didnt mean too


i dont think what i just said makes much sense sorry

 

[YogiBare]

Hi Risia

I too agree with those who say that you are being too hard on yourself. The fundamental problem here is that sexuality - and sexual choices - are so damn complicated. Few of us are purely hetero or homosexual, I believe, from a biological standpoint. there's usually some element of choice involved, and with it the supression or repression of one orientation or the other. I believe that I could live as a bisexual if I chose to do so, but have made a different choice. I have a male friend in his late 50s who has lived, at different times, gay and hetero lifestyles, and has also applied for the priesthood on two occasions. How would a person seeing any one side of him guess that the others were there too?

I think that your assumption had less to do with sexual pigeonholing than with the natural human tendency to assume that what exists today has always existed. Sexuality (and humanity!) is so damned complicated.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I know that I'm arguing over schematics but I believe that if I don't you'll simply think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Technically, you're arguing semantics, not schematics, but I'll let you off the hook this time.

I suppose I'm trying to say that I have assumptions about my self that make it almost impossible to make conclusions about others.

Now this is about as concise and eloquent a response to a question as I've ever seen. Now I understand. Thanks for explaining.

Yogi, pagan, and others: thanks for your comments.
I'm really not being hard on myself. I'm not *upset* or anything, and this incident was more than 2 years ago. I was just looking at some threads about avatars & assumptions, and Cath!'s thing about daughter being intimidating, and it got me thinking about assumptions and how well we hide them, even from ourselves.

I think Never & Yogi are both right--I came to the wrong conclusion about Lisa: in my mind, because she's a lesbian now, she always saw herself as a lesbian. Live & learn, right?

 

[Never]

I was reading your other thread when I remembered that I never responded to this thread.

I know it's out of date but thank you.