Punishment or Discipline. Is there a difference??? If so, .... How??

[Mr. Bootie]

This thread was inspired by the " Preferred forms of punishment" thread. In reading, I saw the two ideals of "punishment" and "discipline" brought up. So it had me thinking is there a difference?? If so, what is the difference. The question is posed to both Dom/me's and subs.


For the Dom/me's .... Do you punish or discipline your subs?? How are they different?? Do you prefer to punish or discipline your subs??


To the subs. Are you punished or disciplined?? Do you prefer to be punished or disciplined??



( I would think I would rather discipline my sub than to punish her. For to punish her, would mean that I am also punishing myself. If I'm punishing myself, how would that make my sub feel?? Isn't that punishing her more?? What are your thoughts?? )



Thank you for reading and responding.




kgboot
aka "Mr. Bootie"

 

[~Dream~]

Punishment vs.Discipline

In my honest opinion.Discipline is used to "correct' bad behaviour or "unacceptable behaviour' and punishment demeans a person by tromping all over their"self-worth through humilihation for example.

My Master chose and still chooses at times to use deprivation of online messaging as a ways of discipling me.. At first it hurt terribly and still does,(so I considered it punishment)however, I have had time to reconsider it and I know He is doing it not because He doesnt love me,but insread to give me time to THINK about my mistakes,calm down and see the "TRUTH" for myself..

 

[MissTaken]

To assist someone to learn to change their behavior in a positive manner is discipline. Both parties feel better for an act of discipline.

To show someone they have made a mistake without the benefit of assisting with change is punishment. Maybe one of the two parties feels better for punishment.

I am not into punishment.
I believe it is meaningless and not beneficial to anyone.

Now, I try to readily accept discipline. If I never needed it and always accepted it, I would be a boring submissive.



We all hve room to grow.
Discipline helps us do that, whether it by engaging in acts of self discipline or a Dom is responsible for disciplining the sub.

 

[Soron]

Discipline and Training

I abhor punishment. It hurts me emotionally to have to do it.

From my experience, discipline is about focus. If a slave is focused, then there will be very few, if any punishments.

 

[artful]

I don't DO punishment!

It's just not my cup of tea!

 

[serijules]

This topic is highly fascinating to me since my own view is drastically different from most that I've read here.

The difference between punishment and discipline for me is intent and timing.

A punishment is for something immediate, and the intent is to correct a behavior. If I get mouthy or cranky with Sir and he sends me to bed early...his intent is to correct my attitude (which would be well deserved IMO) and the timing is immediate. Once the punishment is done (which would be when my attitude improved) all is forgiven and forgotten. I choose to behave in a way that I knew would result in a punishment, and he choose to correct me for making this choice. If I get punished for a behavior, it doesn't necessarily mean that I will never repeat that behavior (such as get cranky with him at another time when I am overtired).

Discipline, for me, is to prevent or modify a behavior, and the timing may not necessarily coincide with the behavior in question. An example of discipline may be say, a bedtime. I stay up too late too many nights, end up spending my days cranky and bitchy, the discipline for that would be a permanent set bedtime. Breaking that discipline by not going to bed on time one night might result in an immediate punishment to correct the behavior of breaking a rule, or might result in a longer term discipline adjustment by making said bedtime even earlier. The intent of the discipline bedtime is to modify that behavior, which was an ongoing problem. If I get disciplined for something, usually at some point the behavior will no longer exist. The intentions are to modify it for good.


I think the two 'terms' feed off of each other depending on the relationship, the circumstances and the level of consent present.
I know that many people feel that both are demeaning, or abusive, or any other number for things....but for me, discipline and punishment are a permanent part of my relationships. I'm on a journey to learn and grow and become a stronger person through my submission, but I make mistakes, I test limits because my relationships are at stages where it is OK to test limits and discover boundaries.

I trust my partners so use their ability to punish or discipline me wisely, or I wouldn't be with them. I feel that having to face my mistakes and the consequences is a learning experience, for both my partner(s) and I, and it is a very secure feeling for me to be able to trust my partner to accept me no matter what my behavior, and to care enough about me to want to work with me to adjust it.

Just what works for me, I do understand that is not how everyone feels about those terms or how it works for everyone's relationships, but in my experience, for my personal needs and that of the people I have relationships with, discipline and punishment are more so positive growing experiences rather than negative ones.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Discipline

It is not necessary to punish, but it is necessary to take notice of the lapse and deal with it in some definite way. slaves need to feel the Master’s eye on them continually, until it is internalized. If He cannot or will not provide discipline, He has no business owning a slave, just as a parent who will not provide it for a child is unfit for that role.


To me this is the key to punishment.

In my opinion, punishment is NOT necessary. But discipline is. A Mistress/master has to deal with lapses in some definite manner. They must "take notice" and act in a way to let the slave/sub know that he or she have fallen short.

They are then compelled to give the proper direction so that further lapses are avoided.


Ebonyfire

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump?

 

[waynerobertson]

For me

Discipline is what some subs need on a regular basis and punishment is when they disobey (usually knowing they are doing so) and expect punishment rather than just discipline.

 

[leZilla]

Punishment is what a happens when a sub is unable to dicipline themselves enough to absolutely submit his or herself to a Domme or Dom's desires.

 

[Netzach]

I don't punish. I correct.

It's usually as simple as "please don't do that"
or "please do that this way."

although it can be worded in a very nasty way to my slave who responds really favorably to abusive language. A charming quirk I appreciate.

 

[lne_iii]

But that's generally what punishment is right?

Correction?

But punishment is generally far more brutal.

Which may flutter someone's proverbial putter more.


LNE

 

[Netzach]

But that's generally what punishment is right?

Correction?

But punishment is generally far more brutal.

Which may flutter someone's proverbial putter more.


LNE

It does cause correction, yes. Same result, different tactic.

But I find myself very put out when "forced" by the conventions of other people's expectations of D/s relationships based on collective fantasies to have to punish my adult partners like recalcitrant children I've chosen not to have.

I believe that by making my expectations clear, reasonable and doable, and giving my sub the tools needed to meet those expectations each and every time I can save the aggression for playtime.

 

[lne_iii]

It does cause correction, yes. Same result, different tactic.

But I find myself very put out when "forced" by the conventions of other people's expectations of D/s relationships based on collective fantasies to have to punish my adult partners like recalcitrant children I've chosen not to have.

I believe that by making my expectations clear, reasonable and doable, and giving my sub the tools needed to meet those expectations each and every time I can save the aggression for playtime.

Very well said.

But, there again, I think that it's a classic case of to-may-to, to-motto.

Or...

"Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?"



LNE

 

[Netzach]

Very well said.

But, there again, I think that it's a classic case of to-may-to, to-motto.

Or...

"Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?"



LNE

Yep, a lot of people would be bored silly if you framed it the way I do and really crave punishment as part of the dynamic.

 

[lne_iii]

The only thing that bothers me in the discipline/punishment wordings is that...

Sometimes one doesn't do enough
"wrong" to warrant a "punishment" ...

Discipline, I can envision, can be a deterrent rather than a reactionary.

To "discipline" can also be to "condition" as evident by many exercise programs...

And to "condition" one to your will....oh that's hot.

To be able to be in a situation, not be satisfied...and just give them "the look"...and they instantly snap to what it is they are doing wrong, if anything...and correct it without being verbally reprimanded...

Oh yes...I like that.


LNE

 

[FurryFury]

It does cause correction, yes. Same result, different tactic.

But I find myself very put out when "forced" by the conventions of other people's expectations of D/s relationships based on collective fantasies to have to punish my adult partners like recalcitrant children I've chosen not to have.

I believe that by making my expectations clear, reasonable and doable, and giving my sub the tools needed to meet those expectations each and every time I can save the aggression for playtime.

I love your POV.

*smiles*

Fury

 

[serijules]

Yep, a lot of people would be bored silly if you framed it the way I do and really crave punishment as part of the dynamic.

I'm one of those, I think. I don't CRAVE punishment, in fact, I really rather dislike it since it means I have acted in a way that displeases her and that is never a desireable thing, but...

punishment and discipline still works for us. It's always been a part of my relationship dynamics and for whatever reason, it works.

Since becoming her slave however, it has become much more of a rarity. I have a better understanding of what it means to serve by anticipating her needs and behaving in a manner that is becoming to her training.

 

[Netzach]

I'm one of those, I think. I don't CRAVE punishment, in fact, I really rather dislike it since it means I have acted in a way that displeases her and that is never a desireable thing, but...

punishment and discipline still works for us. It's always been a part of my relationship dynamics and for whatever reason, it works.

Since becoming her slave however, it has become much more of a rarity. I have a better understanding of what it means to serve by anticipating her needs and behaving in a manner that is becoming to her training.

I think that's one of the markers of slavery in my mind, in its strive towards usefulness and service it actually pushes outside the box of submission into something not quite as passive. "submission" is kind of a "make me" stance whereas slavery is more of a "I make myself useful" stance.

 

[SpectreT]

Ah, lexicology again...

Or is this semantics? Never took advanced English courses, certainly not at a collegiate level.

Discipline - Personality trait. The ability to do something regardless of having any desire of one's own to do that thing, or even in spite of one's own desire not to do that thing. It can be trained into people, either using rewards or -

Punishment - Undesired consequenses of one's actions or reactions, levied by an authority figure, occasioanlly according to some codified rules or other "justice" system.

-or both rewards and punishments.

 

[serijules]

I think that's one of the markers of slavery in my mind, in its strive towards usefulness and service it actually pushes outside the box of submission into something not quite as passive. "submission" is kind of a "make me" stance whereas slavery is more of a "I make myself useful" stance.

I agree, and the more I experience that and strive for that, the less often I fall into a trap of behaving in a way that needs to be "punished". Corrected, yes...no one is perfect, but not necessarily punished.

 

[Emma_Ray_Garrett]

I've been following this, trying to figure out if there is a distinction in my mind. To me, the words are somewhat synonymous, and its all about perception and semantics.

However, the more I think about it, the more I feel maybe their is a difference.

Discipline is something I give/provide to my children, hoping to correct poor behavior and teach them the 'right' way to act/respond.

Punishment is something I give to my sub. Sometimes for the above reason, and sometimes for my/our pleasure.

Then again, my children also receive punishment, like grounding or losing favorite toys, or standing in a corner as an immediate reprimand for behavior that requires both.

Well, shit, no how confusing is that, LOLOL!

 

[FurryFury]

In raising kids, I don't believe in punishment. I do believe in discipline and natural consequences.

In BDSM I'm pretty much the same way. Don't beat me because I've been "bad." Beat me because you fucking enjoy it and for that matter so do I. I promise if I'm hitting you, it's only because I want to and enjoy it, never because I'm pissed as hell. For heaven's sake don't set up a dynamic whereby I have to act badly to get what we both want. That is just a game I am NOT willing to ever play.

OTOH, if I fuck up or you fuck up there are some natural consequences in most cases and/or that may require some discipline.

Now some have said discipline comes from within. That is another definition. Yes, some of it does but if I had enough or you had enough, then we wouldn't needing any help with our goals or submission as the case may be, right? We wouldn't need anyone, cause we'd be all that. No, not really but I was just trying to make a point here.

For instance, I need to start working out again. I'm up to 134 pounds and I feel F-A-T. That's a self perception problem there, I know but it's how I feel about me right now. I need someone to look after me in this area or it simply won't happen. I recognize that I need this and that my own inner discipline won't be enough.

Some have said punishment is punitive and belittling. I am NOT into being punitive or anyone being punitive or treating me with little or no respect. Some are into it and I'm fine with that but - not - me. If you and I have no respect for each other and act that way, we won't be hanging very long.

And that is my two cents worth.

*HUGS*

Fury

 

[Netzach]

In BDSM I'm pretty much the same way. Don't beat me because I've been "bad." Beat me because you fucking enjoy it and for that matter so do I. I promise if I'm hitting you, it's only because I want to and enjoy it, never because I'm pissed as hell. For heaven's sake don't set up a dynamic whereby I have to act badly to get what we both want. That is just a game I am NOT willing to ever play.

OTOH, if I fuck up or you fuck up there are some natural consequences in most cases and/or that may require some discipline.

Yep, this is my philosophy in a nutshell on this one. I also find that if someone doesn't respect me enough to do things differently when it's discussed and agreed on, I don't *want* to expend energy "dominating" them in whatever way they are manipulating for.

 

[FurryFury]

Yep, this is my philosophy in a nutshell on this one. I also find that if someone doesn't respect me enough to do things differently when it's discussed and agreed on, I don't *want* to expend energy "dominating" them in whatever way they are manipulating for.

*purrs*

I love that we think alike in this because I admire you so much!

Fury