Professional Male Role Models Needed

[Sandy_Fox]

A long time friend of mine and I were sitting out on my patio this afternoon and he asked me how my lesbian buddies were doing. While we were talking about them he made the comment that he didn't have a problem with them being married, it was just that he thought kids needed a male role model.

I thought for a minute , then I asked him, "Skippy, what exactly is a good male role model? What does a man bring to the table that a good, strong woman doesn't?" Before I let him answer, I reminded him that both he and I had spend over half our careers away from our families and our kids turned out just fine. Neither one of us could come up with a good answer to that question.

I keep hearing "a lack of male role models" is one of the reasons that people were pro Prop 8. I'd like somebody to explain to me just what wonderful, special, EXCLUSIVELY male "role model" things a guy can provide that a mature, responsible woman can not.

I'm all ears...

 

[dr_mabeuse]

How to pee standing up.

If you have to ask, I can't tell you.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm all ears...

Why, yes . . . yes, you are. Only have to look at your avatar to see that.

 

[R. Richard]

To answer your question would take a very thick book. The process of being a man [or a woman] is developed over years and specific experiences. Men tend to have one set of male experiences, women tend to have one set of female experiences and both males and females tend to have many of the same experiences.

One, perhaps silly, example is that many men have had 'the wind knocked out of them.' Relatively few women have. I know how to deal with the situation and how to tell someone to deal with the situation. You probably don't.

I know how to type. You probably do too.

There are any number of situations that a boy goes through that are a key part of making him into a man. If he has guidance from a true adult male, the way is much clearer. The same sort of path is trod by a girl on the way to becoming a woman. She needs to talk to adult women to avoid potentially disastrous mistakes.

One specific thing I taught the son of a lady friend of mine might well illustrate the point. The kid was being beat up by a bully. I showed the kid how to increase the power of his punch by some 50%, just by improving technique. So, tell me, if an adult woman punches someone, what's the orientation of her fist at the moment of impact and how does it get to that orientation?

 

[jomar]

Then there's spitting, farting, burping and blowing one's nose without a hankie, but even then.

 

[sr71plt]

Then there's spitting, farting, burping and blowing one's nose without a hankie, but even then.

Conversely, not nearly as much whining and manipulation.

 

[starrkers]

The reverse question also applies - I know a couple of gay couples (male) with children. There is some outcry about lack of a female in the house.

Plenty of hetero couples with kids couldn't provide a decent role model if they were offered a king's ransom to do it.

Why are gay/lesbian couples automatically considered to be lacking?

 

[cloudy]

I think that children do need a male (or female) role model in their lives, but that doesn't have to be a parent. It could be an aunt/uncle, a family friend, or whatever.

Each gender has something to offer a child.

 

[Sandy_Fox]

To answer your question would take a very thick book. The process of being a man [or a woman] is developed over years and specific experiences. Men tend to have one set of male experiences, women tend to have one set of female experiences and both males and females tend to have many of the same experiences.

One, perhaps silly, example is that many men have had 'the wind knocked out of them.' Relatively few women have. I know how to deal with the situation and how to tell someone to deal with the situation. You probably don't.

I know how to type. You probably do too.

There are any number of situations that a boy goes through that are a key part of making him into a man. If he has guidance from a true adult male, the way is much clearer. The same sort of path is trod by a girl on the way to becoming a woman. She needs to talk to adult women to avoid potentially disastrous mistakes.

One specific thing I taught the son of a lady friend of mine might well illustrate the point. The kid was being beat up by a bully. I showed the kid how to increase the power of his punch by some 50%, just by improving technique. So, tell me, if an adult woman punches someone, what's the orientation of her fist at the moment of impact and how does it get to that orientation?

In other words you got nothing...

Your one specific example is how to punch. One of the women we were discussing is a 4th Dan Black belt and could possibly kick both of out asses. She KNOWS how to punch. She has also taught her kids how to walk away graceful. My wife, while not as skilled as the other woman, taught both of my daughters basic self defense skills that are VERY similar to Marine Corps hand ot hand combat skills. = balls, eyes, nose.

Next...

 

[Sandy_Fox]

I think that children do need a male (or female) role model in their lives, but that doesn't have to be a parent. It could be an aunt/uncle, a family friend, or whatever.

Each gender has something to offer a child.

Such as?

 

[rgraham666]

Don't ask me. I was asked to hand in my 'guy card' years ago.

 

[3113]

I keep hearing "a lack of male role models" is one of the reasons that people were pro Prop 8.

Does that include kids with 2 dads? Why doesn't anyone ever worry about them lacking female role models? And you wait, Sandy. Those kids of yours are gonna turn out to be sissies! All 'cause you weren't there to play catch with 'em or teach 'em how to fire a gun

Honestly, I was raised in a nuclear family and while I won't say my dad was the worst male role model, I will say that he, well, wasn't much of a model. He taught us a few good things, the best being fidelity to his wife, but it was my mother who taught us to stand up for what's right, keep your word, be brave, all those things that male role models are supposed to pass on down to their kids. My dad taught us...very little of use. My brother made a point of not being like my dad and I married a man who is nearly the opposite of my father (marry someone like my dad? Gawd no!).

Interesting thing is: I actually know quite a few men that I really admire and think of as good, male role models: honest, smart, brave, honorable, trustworthy, generous and empathetic men. And the most interesting thing is...a lot of them had rotten dads. Dads who either weren't there or were so outrageously unreliable that they might as well have not been there. Some had great moms, some not. But here's the thing that I've found in almost all cases with these guys: They usually found their own role models along the way. And I don't even mean real men. A few of them latched onto superheroes or a famous/historical figures as their role models. Obviously, these were guys with good/vivid imaginations. Others found someone else in their lives who fulfilled the role--an uncle or teacher.

That's always what seems to be forgotten in this argument. Most families do not live in a vacuum with just parent/parents. There are teachers, friends, relatives, neighbors. Not to mention heroes and national figures. Role models abound. And the one important job is to make sure that the kid has found a good one. But that's the thing also--kids need to find their right role models. The sports' lovin' dad may be a good dad and role model on one level, but his nerd kid is going to need to put up that picture of Einstein and have that role model, yes? Likewise, the sports' lovin' kid is going to need more than his nerd dad and might get a lot out of his little league coach. Why only one role model? And why only the parent?

In the end, a male role model needs to be, at the core (IMHO) an honest man, who does the best he can for his family, and, if possible, is there for his kids when they need him--and that's for everything from changing a diaper to helping with the homework to teaching them manners or being disappointed in them for being dishonest. A male role model, like a female role model, is anyone who tries to make a kids into a good human being, and directs them to other good role modes to help them be their own best, individual self--whatever that individual self may be.

As for needing a male (or female) role model: I'd rather a kid had one good parent of either sex, and found their own role model for the other sex--fictional or otherwise--than have a bad role model of either sex who only leaves them with one good lesson: "I don't ever want to be like him/her!"

 

[Salvor-Hardon]

As a male raised by a single female, this question strikes home with me. Granted, I have had to form my concepts of masculinity and femininity, and my concepts are not the norm for western society. A solid consistent male role model may have helped bring my ideas more in line with the norm. That is not to say my concept is inferior, I think it is actually better, but it is not widely held.

I had to find male friends of my mom to learn things like how to shave, how to match my tie to my suit, how to tie a tie (yes those can be taught by a woman, but men know the inner secrets like how to adjust the tie so you can still breathe, why a power tie influences and how it makes you feel when people respond, why a clean shave is so important) and how to treat a woman. Woman can tell you how they like to be treated, and I would highly recommend that young men listen to a woman on that count, but there is also the male perspective, what kind of woman to avoid and how to get out of a bad relationship.

Its as much about perspective as it is about skills. I don't think there needs to be a live in 24 / 7 male in a child's life, but there does need to be that guy you can go to who will answer openly and honestly.

 

[Sandy_Fox]

...In the end, a male role model needs to be, at the core (IMHO) an honest man, who does the best he can for his family, and, if possible, is there for his kids when they need him--and that's for everything from changing a diaper to helping with the homework to teaching them manners or being disappointed in them for being dishonest. A male role model, like a female role model, is anyone who tries to make a kids into a good human being, and directs them to other good role modes to help them be their own best, individual self--whatever that individual self may be.

As for needing a male (or female) role model: I'd rather a kid had one good parent of either sex, and found their own role model for the other sex--fictional or otherwise--than have a bad role model of either sex who only leaves them with one good lesson: "I don't ever want to be like him/her!"

So I think we are in agreement. A child (male or female) doesn't need a good "male/female role model" they need a male/female "Good role model".

 

[dr_mabeuse]

So how come you spent half your career away from your kids if you're so concerned about role models?

 

[R. Richard]

In other words you got nothing...

Your one specific example is how to punch. One of the women we were discussing is a 4th Dan Black belt and could possibly kick both of out asses. She KNOWS how to punch. She has also taught her kids how to walk away graceful. My wife, while not as skilled as the other woman, taught both of my daughters basic self defense skills that are VERY similar to Marine Corps hand ot hand combat skills. = balls, eyes, nose.

Next...

You need to talk to your 4th Dan Black belt friend. The sequence you cite is sufficiently poor that it could lead to the death of someone who tries to use it.

Amateur self defense skills for a woman are completely different than those that work for a man. As an example, have your 4th Dan Black belt lady friend explain to you how to achieve a rooted stance while wearing high heels. Also have your 4th Dan Black belt friend explain how an amateur five foot tall woman, weighing 100 pounds deals with a six foot tall, 200 pound male attacker. [Don't bother to cite vital points, the average amateur can't really use vital point strikes, for a variety of reasons.]

[I taught kung-fu skills to women. Yes, a 4th Dan Black belt can deal with a much larger, heavier, stronger man. I'm talking amateur women.]

[I never had the opportunity to take Marine hand-to-hand. Taught the course, yes. Took it, no.]

I gave two specific examples. One was 'having the wind knocked out of you.'

 

[Sandy_Fox]

As a male raised by a single female, this question strikes home with me. Granted, I have had to form my concepts of masculinity and femininity, and my concepts are not the norm for western society. A solid consistent male role model may have helped bring my ideas more in line with the norm. That is not to say my concept is inferior, I think it is actually better, but it is not widely held.

I had to find male friends of my mom to learn things like how to shave, how to match my tie to my suit, how to tie a tie (yes those can be taught by a woman, but men know the inner secrets like how to adjust the tie so you can still breathe, why a power tie influences and how it makes you feel when people respond, why a clean shave is so important) and how to treat a woman. Woman can tell you how they like to be treated, and I would highly recommend that young men listen to a woman on that count, but there is also the male perspective, what kind of woman to avoid and how to get out of a bad relationship.

Its as much about perspective as it is about skills. I don't think there needs to be a live in 24 / 7 male in a child's life, but there does need to be that guy you can go to who will answer openly and honestly.

Those are all good points, but as you pointed out yourself there is nothing that is truly male/female exclusive.

 

[cloudy]

Such as?

Gender identity, for one - there is such a thing as Gender Identity Disorder.

Look, I could get into a lot of psychology gobbledegook, but I detect some hostility from you for the idea, so I won't elaborate.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was raised by a mommy and a daddy.

So don't go thinking that alone will guarantee gender stability!

 

[epiphany65]

America just elected a President raised mainly by a single mother and his grandmother. He seems to've done just fine without a (stable, constant) male role model.

 

[jomar]

hmmmm

 

[Sandy_Fox]

You need to talk to your 4th Dan Black belt friend. The sequence you cite is sufficiently poor that it could lead to the death of someone who tries to use it.

Amateur self defense skills for a woman are completely different than those that work for a man. As an example, have your 4th Dan Black belt lady friend explain to you how to achieve a rooted stance while wearing high heels. Also have your 4th Dan Black belt friend explain how an amateur five foot tall woman, weighing 100 pounds deals with a six foot tall, 200 pound male attacker. [Don't bother to cite vital points, the average amateur can't really use vital point strikes, for a variety of reasons.]

[I taught kung-fu skills to women. Yes, a 4th Dan Black belt can deal with a much larger, heavier, stronger man. I'm talking amateur women.]

[I never had the opportunity to take Marine hand-to-hand. Taught the course, yes. Took it, no.]

I gave two specific examples. One was 'having the wind knocked out of you.'

Oh really, taught it but never took it? Oh, when and where did you teach Marines HTH? (and please remember that I served 30 years in the Corps and I will know if you are fibbing )

 

[R. Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudy
I think that children do need a male (or female) role model in their lives, but that doesn't have to be a parent. It could be an aunt/uncle, a family friend, or whatever.

Each gender has something to offer a child.

Such as?

If you had a normal childhood, you grew up in a female centric world. You learned a lot of skills that a male child would not normally learn. The male child did the reverse.

I wouldn't have any idea how to tell a girl how to conduct herself in a beauty parlor. You have very little idea of how to tell a boy how to conduct himself at a playground with other boys.

The idea that a person of either sex can tell a child of the other sex about some of the detail situations the child will find him/herself in is naive.

 

[Sandy_Fox]

So how come you spent half your career away from your kids if you're so concerned about role models?

I was protecting your ass! What, should I appologize to you for serving my country?

(and if you READ what I said, I said my kids turned out just fine.)

 

[3113]

So I think we are in agreement. A child (male or female) doesn't need a good "male/female role model" they need a male/female "Good role model".

At least one to raise them, certainly. I think my husband turned out as amazing as he is thanks to his wonderful mother. His dad certainly didn't contribute much. But that's the thing, if the kid has just one such model, I *think* that they can find the other on their own if need be. That is, the boy can find a man to teach him to shave, wear a tie and punch 50% better. The girl can find a woman to teach her how to deal with her period and wear a bra and such.

And, contrariwise, a girl can find a man to help her understand what boys are after and how to say "no" to them and hold off until she finds someone worthy of her. And, as Salvor pointed out, a boy can find a woman who can give him the inside dope on what girls really want from a man and how to be that man.

I mean, what we're talking about here, ultimately, is the "best of all possible worlds" scenario. In the best of all possible worlds, all children would be born to parents where they would have not only 24/7 male and female role models, but exactly the right type of male/female they, personally, needed. But genetics is a crap-shoot and kids don't get a catalogue of parents to pick from--there is no best-of-all-possible-worlds here. All we can hope to be for kids, ours or any kids, is a good human being role models.

My argument would be that any other argument is bogus not only because we don't have the best-of-all-possible-worlds, but also because human beings were never meant to be nuclear families with just two parents. We were meant to be small tribes, extended families. And in such a scenario, it doesn't matter if the kid knows who their father or even mother is. They find the right role models that they need when they need them to teach them whatever is they need to learn or want to be. If they want to be the artist of the tribe, that's their role model. If they want to be the great hunter/huntress of the tribe, that's their role model.

The whole discussion is bogus because it presumes that the best and only family arrangement is two parent and kids and that the parents are all the kids will have or ever use for role models. Bogus all the way around.