Partial Birth Abortion

[Johnny Mayberry]

I've noticed that the politicians who are anti-abortion also tend to support the death penalty, even for minors and the mentally retarded. The same ones who want to cut funding for school lunches for these same kids, who do nothing to alleviate the poverty of children. The same ones who don't care if a child dies because his parents can't afford both doctors and food, because they have no insurance. Compassion and love for the unborn, but once you're born...you're fucked!

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Partial Birth Abortion

I'm not talking about for the inconvenience of the mother - I'm talking about avoiding the immoral inflection of pain and suffering on a baby.

I'd like to see you find a doctor who would perform a partial birth abortion in order to avoid 'inconveniencing' a mother!

Taking my child off life support because it's existence is nothing but unending and untreatable pain and suffering, is not killing it for my 'convenience' - it's killing it because it would be wrong to keep someone alive in that state.

The suffering of others does not 'inconvenience' me - I help people who are suffering because I know that it's the right thing to do. If killing someone is the only way I can help them - then I won't enjoy doing it, I won't do it lightly, it will not be 'convenient' for me to have to do it, but if there's no other option you can bet that I will do it.

Then basically we're in agreement. The mother's life is paramount and a legitimate excuse. As is the case of an unviable fetus.

Ishmael

 

[RawHumor]

I've noticed that the politicians who are anti-abortion also tend to support the death penalty, even for minors and the mentally retarded. The same ones who want to cut funding for school lunches for these same kids, who do nothing to alleviate the poverty of children. The same ones who don't care if a child dies because his parents can't afford both doctors and food, because they have no insurance. Compassion and love for the unborn, but once you're born...you're fucked!

When did REDWAVE create a second username?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

When did REDWAVE create a second username?

Fuck you Cartman, you stupid fat fuck!

Great minds think alike...and so do me and redwave, apparently.

 

[Freya]

I'd be less concerned with the 30% that Ish says are done to avoid inconveniencing the mother (which I find very hard to believe), than the fact that this could be the foot in the door that pro-lifers have been looking for. They'll pass these seemingly insignificant, easily defendable laws one at a time, until one day, that freedom of choice that women rely on, will be eventually taken away.

God, I hope I didn't sound like Redwave with that comment.

 

[RawHumor]

God, I hope I didn't sound like Redwave with that comment.

No, pookums.

There's a difference between being concerned about your "rights" than painting all right-wingers with the same broad brush.

 

[Freya]

No, pookums.

There's a difference between being concerned about your "rights" than painting all right-wingers with the same broad brush.

[hijack]

Welcome back sweetcheeks! How was your Christmas and New Years?

[/hijack]

 

[crysede]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Partial Birth Abortion

Then basically we're in agreement. The mother's life is paramount and a legitimate excuse. As is the case of an unviable fetus.

No we aren't - not even close!

An unviable fetus is a fetus that cannot be kept alive.

I maintain that there are times when a viable fetus should not be kept alive.

Thus we are in disagreement about your claim that those 30% of PBA's that you feel are done for the sake of not 'inconveniencing' the mother - I say that's a ridiculous attitude to take to those cases.

Withdrawing life support from someone whose life is, and will remain, nothing but a painful burden, is not something people do for 'convenience'. We do it because we feel compassion for the suffering of others, because we think it would be wrong for us to force them to continue to live under those circumstances.

 

[miles]

I've noticed that the politicians who are anti-abortion also tend to support the death penalty, even for minors and the mentally retarded. The same ones who want to cut funding for school lunches for these same kids, who do nothing to alleviate the poverty of children. The same ones who don't care if a child dies because his parents can't afford both doctors and food, because they have no insurance. Compassion and love for the unborn, but once you're born...you're fucked!

I've noticed that the politicians who favor abortion are soft on crime. The same ones who want to take money from one group and give it to another. The same party who wants to raise taxes. The same ones whose party was so vehemently in favor of segregation. The same party that ruled the South for almost 100 years, ignoring the rights of blacks and often murdering them. The same party whose President was impeached. The same party of outstanding citizens like Jesse Jackson. The party of Representative Trafacant, who is now somebody's bitch in the joint.

I've also noticed you're a dildo.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Gotta love those right-wingers...when they don't have a leg to stand on, out come the personal insults. Cute...

 

[RhumbRunner13]

A partial birth abortion is a late-term abortion.

I could be wrong here, but not every late term abortion is a partial birth abortion.

The PBA's that conservatives are upset about is a procedure that manipulates the "child" into a breech birth position inside the mother’s womb. Delivery is then induced or forced until only the head remains in the birth canal. Scissors or another sharp object punctures the base of the skull and a suction device then suctions out the brain of the child. The resultant death then qualifies to be labeled an "abortion" because birth doesn’t occur until the entire baby is born.

Will someone knowledgeable please describe the condition of the mother that would necessitate this procedure? It would seem that manipulating the child to a breech birth position would be far more stressful than a cesarean delivery or saline injection into the child and suctioning it out.

Rhumb

 

[Freya]

I don't know about the rest of it, but I wouldn't say moving a child into a breech position is any more or less stressful than moving a child out of one - and that is done all the time before regular deliveries.

 

[miles]

Fuck you Cartman, you stupid fat fuck!

Great minds think alike...and so do me and redwave, apparently.

When did you join the right wing? You better change your posts before someone else reads them.

 

[crysede]

I could be wrong here, but not every late term abortion is a partial birth abortion.

The PBA's that conservatives are upset about is a procedure that manipulates the "child" into a breach birth position inside the mother?s womb. Delivery is then induced or forced until only the head remains in the birth canal. Scissors or another sharp object punctures the base of the skull and a suction device then suctions out the brain of the child. The resultant death then qualifies to be labeled an "abortion" because birth doesn?t occur until the entire baby is born.

Will someone knowledgeable please describe the condition of the mother that would necessitate this procedure? It would seem that manipulating the child to a breach birth position would be far more stressful than a cesarean delivery or saline injection into the child and suctioning it out.

Rhumb

PBA's are performed because:

• The fetus is dead.
• The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
• The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
• The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed hydrocephalus.

Once it has been decided that a PBA is necessary, the physician and patient have only two reasonable medical options:

• D&X abortions (what are usually referred to PBA's): The cervix is dilated. The fetus is delivered feet-first. Its brain is removed. This shrinks the fetal head, and kills the fetus. The fetus can then be removed with less damage to the woman. About 0.04% of all abortions involve a D&X procedure.
• Hysterotomy (sometimes also grouped in under the PBA heading): This is major surgery, essentially identical to a Caesarian Section. It involves a much higher risk to a woman than a D&X.

[edited to add: a PBA may also occasionally be permitted in a few other circumstances - such as a pregnancy which resulted from rape or incest, when the victim was too afraid to tell anyone that she was pregnant while a regular abortion was still an alternative]

 

[weed]

Remember, PBAs only make up some tiny fraction of all abortions, they are usually done to remove stillborn or brain damaged fetuses, or those which are so disfigured taht their lifespan would probably be measured in hours or days at most. Children born with their spines outside their body, without brains, that sort of thing. It is a purely political issue, used in order to control a woman's body.
I want to control a woman's body too, but in a much nicer way...back rubs, for instance.

That's my kind of control freak.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

I don't know about the rest of it, but I wouldn't say moving a child into a breech position is any more or less stressful than moving a child out of one - and that is done all the time before regular deliveries.

From the Web MD Health website:

The key drawbacks to this procedure are the fact that the procedure can be painful, it can be unsuccessful, and -- even if it is successful -- your baby may revert to the breech presentation between the time when the version is performed and labor commences. There's also an element of risk -- which is why the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists states that caregivers must be prepared to do an immediate cesarean section if complications arise during a version.

Doesn't seem so common, Freya. And aren't we doing this procedure because the mother is in such dire stress that a "normal" delivery would be life threatening?

Rhumb

 

[crysede]

Doesn't seem so common, Freya. And aren't we doing this procedure because the mother is in such dire stress that a "normal" delivery would be life threatening?

No, because normal delivery is not possible - the choice is between C-section and D&X (see my above post).

 

[JazzManJim]

Gotta love those right-wingers...when they don't have a leg to stand on, out come the personal insults. Cute...

Wow...way to dive on that grenade...

Fuck you Cartman, you stupid fat fuck!

 

[weed]

I'd be less concerned with the 30% that Ish says are done to avoid inconveniencing the mother (which I find very hard to believe), than the fact that this could be the foot in the door that pro-lifers have been looking for. They'll pass these seemingly insignificant, easily defendable laws one at a time, until one day, that freedom of choice that women rely on, will be eventually taken away.

God, I hope I didn't sound like Redwave with that comment.

That's why they use it. It's sensational propaganda.


And as far as those 30% (@200) knowing their pregnant by 22 weeks....Ish, honey, much stranger things have happened than a woman not knowing she's pregnant by her 2nd trimester.

I'm not making an excuse but it is a fact.


For the record, since I take care of those 23 and 24 week premies that we so ethically? save....many do not survive, many survive after months of life support, and many survive with questionable quality of life. Some do grow up normal but in my experience that is not the norm.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

No, because normal delivery is not possible - the choice is between C-section and D&X (see my above post).

Crysde, if a normal birth is "not possible" how is it that the child can be delivered past the shoulders and allow the brain to be suctioned out? I thought the hips and shoulders were the "stiking" points during birth?

Rhumb

 

[crysede]

Crysde, if a normal birth is "not possible" how is it that the child can be deliverd past the shoulders and allow the brain to be suctioned out? I thought the hips and shoulders were the "stiking" points during birth?

Rhumb

The skull is the 'sticking' point - the rest of the baby is quite small compared to the head. That's why the baby must delivered feet-first for a D&X.

 

[Freya]

From the Web MD Health website:

The key drawbacks to this procedure are the fact that the procedure can be painful, it can be unsuccessful, and -- even if it is successful -- your baby may revert to the breech presentation between the time when the version is performed and labor commences. There's also an element of risk -- which is why the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists states that caregivers must be prepared to do an immediate cesarean section if complications arise during a version.

Doesn't seem so common, Freya. And aren't we doing this procedure because the mother is in such dire stress that a "normal" delivery would be life threatening?

Rhumb

It's done anytime a baby is in breech position, which is fairly common in regular deliveries, because it's less stressful and dangerous than a C-section, which is usually the only other alternative.

I think I overstated this. When a baby is in a breech position, the ultimate hope is that it will turn on its own - barring that, they may try to turn it into normal position, and barring that will most likely choose a C-section delivery as it is safer than a breech position birth.

 

[weed]

Fetal heads grow fastest, ahead of the body. In a 22 weeker it is proportionally much bigger than at term.

That's why a version would be advantageous. The biggest part comes first.

That's why a breech delivery is always riskier.

 

[teddybear4play]

I've noticed that the politicians who are anti-abortion also tend to support the death penalty, even for minors and the mentally retarded. The same ones who want to cut funding for school lunches for these same kids, who do nothing to alleviate the poverty of children. The same ones who don't care if a child dies because his parents can't afford both doctors and food, because they have no insurance. Compassion and love for the unborn, but once you're born...you're fucked!

Mayberry? This guy sounds like Barney Fife.

Probably looks like Don Knotts, too.

TB4p

 

[crysede]

LOL @ three nearly simultaneous answers to Rhumb's question

Well, no one will be able to complain that their questions went unanswered in this thread