On trust and bears and men…

[IrisAlthea]

I’m going to ramble a bit here:
Came home to find that youngest Miss Althea had gathered a little study group. They said it was too hot in the dining room and that they couldn’t open the windows, so I opened a window for them and they were all: ”How did you do that?”.
I jokingly struck a pose and said ”I work out.” and one of the guys laughingly clutched his chest and mimed being deadly wounded.

Later in the evening, the other kids had left and youngest Miss Althea asked if I couldn’t see why they all think he’s a charmer.
I said that I absolutely can see it, but that I still don’t think he is a trustworthy partner. (There is history, with both youngest Miss and other girls)

She asked if I wasn’t worried then when she was out late with him or alone with him and
I explained that I’m fairly certain that he would do his best to protect her if they are out together and that he would take no for an answer etc.
I wouldn’t trust him though, to be a good partner, not to manipulate her if possible and exploit weak points etc, because I believe what people show me.
I do think it is something he can work on and get past - operative word being he.
I also said that she is the one who ultimately has to make the call about trusting.

Here is the thing:
She looks at me and says: ”So you mean there are different kinds of trustworthy and like…different kinds of toxic?”

And I think and hope I managed a better answer than ”Well, duh!” and we had a good conversation about that.

It did make me think though, about some of the discussions about trust and toxic behaviour and toxic relationships and masculinity that I hear going on and recently the ”would you rather meet a bear or a man in the woods”.


So (tl;dr): Have we lost the nuances, to the point where people see trust as an either on or off thing, rather than being contextual?
Or has it perhaps always been black or white for a lot of people?
Is there a difference between generations, over time, between groups etc and if so, how does it impact partner search, relationships?

Especially in BDSM, but to a certain extent with any relationship, I personally think that the nuances concerning trust make a huge difference, so though I’m not doing a good job with turning this into ”a question” I’d love to hear how others see it.

 

[twister947]

The answer is subjective, and getting it right can be critical...I lean toward black/white.

 

[IrisAlthea]

The answer is subjective, and getting it right can be critical...I lean toward black/white.

So either trust and then with everything or no trust at all?

 

[twister947]

Oh, I could entertain an argument that context matters, but that takes me back to no trust at all. "It depends on how high the stakes are..."

 

[Goldenfinger]

So either trust and then with everything or no trust at all?

You trust people to be themselves. And in that context you figure their part in your life.

 

[IrisAlthea]

You trust people to be themselves. And in that context you figure their part in your life.

Yup, I think that’s pretty much what I meant by ”I believe what people show me”.

 

[seela]

So (tl;dr): Have we lost the nuances, to the point where people see trust as an either on or off thing, rather than being contextual?
Or has it perhaps always been black or white for a lot of people?
Is there a difference between generations, over time, between groups etc and if so, how does it impact partner search, relationships?

Especially in BDSM, but to a certain extent with any relationship, I personally think that the nuances concerning trust make a huge difference, so though I’m not doing a good job with turning this into ”a question” I’d love to hear how others see it.

I think the world in general has lost a lot of nuance, regardless of what topic we’re talking about. I’m very black-and-white-averse, so trust is all about gray scales to me, but I also generally tend to be quite trusting in the sense that I believe most people are not out to get me.

What it means to me is that I approach people thinking they’re decent and that’s my stance until something changes it more toward the darker end of the spectrum. That change still doesn’t mean I don’t trust them with anything or in any situation. And just because my default setting is that most people are perfectly decent and fine, it doesn’t mean I won’t stick to my boundaries with them, too. General trust doesn’t mean no boundaries.

To answer a bit more in line with the topic of our board… In BDSM dynamics, I’ve played with people I didn’t trust 100%. That has impacted what I do with them and how, but it hasn’t stopped me from having lots of fun with them doing things I’ve deemed less risky and safe to do with them.

I’ve also played with people that I kind of despised and knew they kind of despised me, but that was still some of the very best experiences I’ve ever had. I had a thread about that too. I trusted them to be a decent enough person and not harm me even if I wouldn’t have trusted them enough to have an open conversation about certain topics with them and I for sure wouldn’t have told them my deepest hopes and dreams. They did a great job messing with my head with the trust thing in play setting.

So to me trust is definitely a nuanced gray scale.

Thanks for starting this topic! Nice to see things like this still discussed here.

 

[Purple_Fronds]

I’m going to ramble a bit here:
Came home to find that youngest Miss Althea had gathered a little study group. They said it was too hot in the dining room and that they couldn’t open the windows, so I opened a window for them and they were all: ”How did you do that?”.
I jokingly struck a pose and said ”I work out.” and one of the guys laughingly clutched his chest and mimed being deadly wounded.

Later in the evening, the other kids had left and youngest Miss Althea asked if I couldn’t see why they all think he’s a charmer.
I said that I absolutely can see it, but that I still don’t think he is a trustworthy partner. (There is history, with both youngest Miss and other girls)

She asked if I wasn’t worried then when she was out late with him or alone with him and
I explained that I’m fairly certain that he would do his best to protect her if they are out together and that he would take no for an answer etc.
I wouldn’t trust him though, to be a good partner, not to manipulate her if possible and exploit weak points etc, because I believe what people show me.
I do think it is something he can work on and get past - operative word being he.
I also said that she is the one who ultimately has to make the call about trusting.

Here is the thing:
She looks at me and says: ”So you mean there are different kinds of trustworthy and like…different kinds of toxic?”

And I think and hope I managed a better answer than ”Well, duh!” and we had a good conversation about that.

It did make me think though, about some of the discussions about trust and toxic behaviour and toxic relationships and masculinity that I hear going on and recently the ”would you rather meet a bear or a man in the woods”.


So (tl;dr): Have we lost the nuances, to the point where people see trust as an either on or off thing, rather than being contextual?
Or has it perhaps always been black or white for a lot of people?
Is there a difference between generations, over time, between groups etc and if so, how does it impact partner search, relationships?

Especially in BDSM, but to a certain extent with any relationship, I personally think that the nuances concerning trust make a huge difference, so though I’m not doing a good job with turning this into ”a question” I’d love to hear how others see it.

Really interesting take, I would add that trust worthiness can change based on time and circumstance, which is confusing for people that are more black and white. After all it’s relatively easy to be trust worthy when things are going your way, but when that changes it’s interesting to see people shift the boundaries. I’m a big believer in instinct which is hard to explain and even harder to prove.

 

[darkride]

My wife and I have talked (again, after more than 15 years) about the idea of looking for a Dom... and her main issue, understandably, is the fear of the guy being toxic.

On the subject in general... I think it's great that we as a society (Western) are becoming more aware of toxic masculinity... and not tolerating it... But it's still a major issue and going to take a few generations at least to really deal with it. I don't know if toxic masculinity is nature or nurture...

 

[IrisAlthea]

I think the world in general has lost a lot of nuance, regardless of what topic we’re talking about. I’m very black-and-white-averse, so trust is all about gray scales to me

That’s pretty much my view too.

In BDSM dynamics, I’ve played with people I didn’t trust 100%. That has impacted what I do with them and how, but it hasn’t stopped me from having lots of fun with them doing things I’ve deemed less risky and safe to do with them.

Yes.
I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone that I would have given total Carte Blanche to, as in total trust to do whatever they decide.
I’ve trusted people not to go beyond what was discussed/to stop when told to.

I’ve also played with people that I kind of despised and knew they kind of despised me, but that was still some of the very best experiences I’ve ever had. I had a thread about that too

I was actually thinking of that thread when I posted and even when talking to Miss Althea about it.

Thanks for starting this topic! Nice to see things like this still discussed here.

Thank you!
I thought a lot about it before posting.

Has the man/bear thing taken ridiculous dimensions over there too?

 

[IrisAlthea]

Really interesting take, I would add that trust worthiness can change based on time and circumstance, which is confusing for people that are more black and white. After all it’s relatively easy to be trust worthy when things are going your way, but when that changes it’s interesting to see people shift the boundaries. I’m a big believer in instinct which is hard to explain and even harder to prove.

Yes.

One of the hardest lessons I’ve had to learn, is that people do choose themselves and theirs over you when. the going gets tough.

It will hurt them too and they are not ”evil”, but do not count on fair play or any godwill it it is a choice between you or them/theirs.

 

[IrisAlthea]

My wife and I have talked (again, after more than 15 years) about the idea of looking for a Dom... and her main issue, understandably, is the fear of the guy being toxic.

I’m guessing you mean that she is afraid that you will run into someone who is into this kind of thing because they are actually of the opinion that she is ”less than”, as a woman?

I think it's great that we as a society (Western) are becoming more aware of toxic masculinity... and not tolerating it...

I sadly think people are less prone to speaking up against all kinds of toxic behaviour these days.

 

[darkride]

I’m guessing you mean that she is afraid that you will run into someone who is into this kind of thing because they are actually of the opinion that she is ”less than”, as a woman?


I sadly think people are less prone to speaking up against all kinds of toxic behaviour these days.

My wife's biggest concern is that we will actually end up meeting with a guy she knows from her work. We would need to insist on seeing a photo of anyone before we met in person in order to cover that concern, which hopefully most people would be ok with. Aside from that, for me it's just the concern that yes - there are very likely a lot of guys out there who consider themselves 'dominant', and would seek out sub women, but in reality he would have no respect for her, or her submission.

Regarding the current state of affairs... Historically you would occasional see a movie or tv show that depicted toxic men (in a bad light). But, it was just that - occasional. I'm sure there's a lot more toxicity in reality than as portrayed by media. But, well - here in Australia in recent years for example the government have made ads showing toxic men treating their partners badly, and their friends calling the toxic male out on their behaviour.

Do I think that happens a lot in reality? No (that's why we need the ads...) But, the fact that we have made those ads, that they are out there in the public forum, it helps bring awareness, and maybe after seeing the good behaviour modeled on the tv/digital device, more men may start to not just turn a blind eye.

It's not something that is going to change overnight. I know there are "men's behavioural classes" out there to try to teach men about their toxicity - but generally I am sure those classes do very little to change the men who most need it - they are most likely forced into the classes with very closed minds by courts etc after committing acts of domestic violence. We need to get a jump on that curve - such as the above ads, to address the problem before it can turn violent.

As a side note - because I can hear certain people's voices responding already - YES, sometimes it is the woman who is toxic. Absolutely. No disagreement. Woman can be nasty, too. But statistically, men are much much much more likely to be the problem, especially when it comes to escalation into violence. I'm sure once we as a society have addressed the issue of men's violence to women, we can then also address the lesser issue of women's violence against men. But we tackle the big problems first, and men are the bigger problem.

Where was I...

Like I said above, I don't know whether toxic behaviour is learned from parents, or if it's possibly genetic. Not sure on the current understanding, but I know there was talk of possible links between genetics and the likelihood of committing violent crime. So, maybe some men are literally hardwired to be toxic, and for them, it's really going to be a matter of trying hard to go against their "nature" to be good men. (Probably a big element of narcissism involved here, and studies certainly suggest that narcissism could have genetic ties.)

 

[seela]

Has the man/bear thing taken ridiculous dimensions over there too?

I don’t do social media, and the odd times I swing by twitter these days, I don’t see any local content because I’ve used twitter for a very specific, non-local purpose, so I’m not entirely sure what goes on here.

A girl was killed at the end of May, and that’s when the man-bear thing pinged on my radar, when it was mentioned in a newspaper after local UN Women chapter brought it up.

I live in a hole, so I can’t really answer what goes on in normal people’s social media life, sorry.

 

[AndersonsBiographer]

I had already forgotten about the bear thing. I initially read this as "On trust and beers and men…" and was wondering if someone had slipped a mickey on OP.

 

[barefootgirl69]

I tend to roll my eyes at the bear and men thing that's going around, mostly because I don't like generalizing a group of people based on their gender or religion or anything else.

Trusting someone, though, is something I do - but, carefully. Or, maybe, watchfully l, because of past experience. I pay attention to what they say as we get to know each other, watch for patterns. I may not say anything right away, because it want to be sure, but I tuck that information away. Trust is built.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I don’t do social media, and the odd times I swing by twitter these days, I don’t see any local content because I’ve used twitter for a very specific, non-local purpose, so I’m not entirely sure what goes on here.

A girl was killed at the end of May, and that’s when the man-bear thing pinged on my radar, when it was mentioned in a newspaper after local UN Women chapter brought it up.

I live in a hole, so I can’t really answer what goes on in normal people’s social media life, sorry.

Was just wondering because I believe you do have bear in the woods, in most parts of the country?
Around here I would be either shocked out of my mind or like ”Poor lost soul, how did you get here?”, if I met a bear.

When I’m hiking alone, I’m most afraid of getting in between Mama Boar and her stripey little piglets.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I had already forgotten about the bear thing. I initially read this as "On trust and beers and men…" and was wondering if someone had slipped a mickey on OP.

No, in beer we trust, unless it’s sour ale. Sour ale gives me stomach ache.

When reading your post, I did muse that it’s not often you hear about drinks getting spiked around here. Considering what we pay for drinks, we don’t leave drinks unattended, ever.

 

[seela]

Was just wondering because I believe you do have bear in the woods, in most parts of the country?
Around here I would be either shocked out of my mind or like ”Poor lost soul, how did you get here?”, if I met a bear.

When I’m hiking alone, I’m most afraid of getting in between Mama Boar and her stripey little piglets.

There are bears all over the country, but few in the south and west where most people live. It’s not really that common to see a bear. I checked the stats, in 2024 roughly 2100 bears. So that’s about 1 bear per 160 sq km (62 sq miles).

Your boars are way scarier than our bears, simply based on how common they are in comparison.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I tend to roll my eyes at the bear and men thing that's going around, mostly because I don't like generalizing a group of people based on their gender or religion or anything else.

Yes, I get what they wanted to say when it first came up, but I think some of what came after is very ignorant about bears, men and most of all, statistics.

Like you, I really dislike generalizations but when it comes to risk assessment and situational awareness, I freely admit that I can’t se a way around it.
When I get some extra time driving between job meetings, I do like to stop for a walk when the weather allows for office clothes in the great outdoors.
I sometimes meet a man out on an otherwise deserted trail and we are usually both more uncomfortable than just dealing with strangers while being Swedish would warrant, because there is a slight chance he might mean trouble.
That’s it though - slight chance and a bit uncomfortable.
If the woods were crawling with non-Yogi Bear bears, I don’t think I’d still be happily traipsing around the countryside unattended.

And yes, paying attention, looking for inconsistencies…

 

[IrisAlthea]

We would need to insist on seeing a photo of anyone before we met in person in order to cover that concern, which hopefully most people would be ok with.

The ”What if you are someone I know?”, does go both ways, so it is a tricky worry to deal with, I guess.

for me it's just the concern that yes - there are very likely a lot of guys out there who consider themselves 'dominant', and would seek out sub women, but in reality he would have no respect for her, or her submission.

It’s really hard to know how and what a new partner really feels about you and the things that we do.
The fact that he may well be thinking ”I can’t believe what this stupid bitch is letting me get away with!”, is not something I’ve found a way past… You get to know people with time.

But, well - here in Australia in recent years for example the government have made ads showing toxic men treating their partners badly, and their friends calling the toxic male out on their behaviour.

Do I think that happens a lot in reality? No (that's why we need the ads...) But, the fact that we have made those ads, that they are out there in the public forum, it helps bring awareness, and maybe after seeing the good behaviour modeled on the tv/digital device, more men may start to not just turn a blind eye.

I think people mean a lot of different things when they discuss what is toxic and even more so in relation to masculinity - there have been threads so I don’t particularly want to open that can of worms again.
Still what I meant with being less hopeful about people speaking up, is that some of what it takes to stand up to asshat behaviour in any setting and by any kind of person, is also the very type of behaviour that is sometimes, by some people considered to be toxic.
When speaking up, not in general, but spcifically against Bill being an asshole to his wife, or making racist jokes or whatever, you have to put your own judgement over others who are sitting quietly and nicely and not rocking the boat and you are going to have to make everyone uncomfortable and it might also involve risktaking depending on how Bill takes it.

Like I said above, I don't know whether toxic behaviour is learned from parents, or if it's possibly genetic. Not sure on the current understanding

I think most of our behaviour is a little bit of both.

 

[nakedmanmeat]

I think there are two things going on here: 1) people are insanely bad at predicting risk and acting on it appropriately. If you were to ask people to rate animals by chance of injuring a human being and give them a list of shark, deer and cow, they'd probably put the shark on top. However, sharks just aren't that dangerous to people - even when people are encountering them. But they ARE scary! This is also true for the bear/man debate. When you consider the number of interactions with men the typical woman has, and then also control and weigh for the outcomes of encounters with bears, you're far more likely to get mauled/killed by a bear vs raped/killed by a man. 2) It's all a symptom of a breakdown in trust in society, historically, the man/bear debate is obviously men because men and women working together conquered the natural world. We're objectively not bear kibble. However, when societies reach a certain point, trust breaks down and this is just one example of that. We're turning looking outwards for threats to inward for threats - and we'll always find threats. It's sad. War and Peace and War covered this really well.