OK you laugh about the UK's quaint laws about...

[p_p_man]

And yet what happened yesterday a 13 year old kid was shot in the the stomach by some mad cunt with a gun...

Instead of listening to the Gun Lobby...

Instead of listening to the jewish lobby...

Can't you arseholes say to to your gu'nor "No more. We the people say NO MORE!"

But you won't because you're all fucking cowards...

You daren't shout against your country in case you're tarnished with the same brush as REDWAVE...

ppman

 

[Problem Child]

What could this topic possibly have to do with Jews?

Good Lord you're pathetic. This could have been a perfectly legitimate thread about gun control and you just have to go toss your anti-semitic spew in there.

No wonder no one takes you seriously.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Pretending the Second Amendment doesn't exist, and isn't important, is no way to argue a point. You're not thinking it through, and you're happy to have the attack of a child to inflame the board. You're obvious, silly, and hateful.

 

[Problem Child]

2nd amendment thread

There you stupid fuck, we've been discussing the issue. Where were you, off sleeping off a hangover?

We discussed it seriously for two days, and didn't need to mention the Jews even one time. See how it works when you actually want to have a discussion, instead of just spewing ignorance?

 

[p_p_man]

God you Americans are pathetic...

especially PC...

Why the fuck do you think that in the UK our killing cunts are few and far between...

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

Re: God you Americans are pathetic...

especially PC...

Why the fuck do you think that in the UK our killing cunts are few and far between...

ppman

I see that miles "who's lost his prick" has joined in the conversation...

The trouble with Americans is that they don't feel brave unless they're armed...

Personally I don't call that being a HERO...

ppman

 

[Guest]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

America: The Most Violent Nation?

David C. Stolinsky, MD


Is America the most violent nation on earth? Those who blame this country for most of the ills of the world would have us believe so. They frequently refer to high rates of homicide and suicide, though they rarely cite actual data. But before fear impels us to shred the Bill of Rights, we should determine whether our fear has a factual basis.

The accompanying table (Table 1) gives suicide and homicide rates for all 86 nations for which data are available. Rates are per 100,000 population and come from the United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook published in 1998.(1) Note that the latest U.S. suicide rate (for 1997) is 11.4, slightly below the 11.9 listed, while the 1997 U.S. homicide rate is 7.3, far below the 9.4 listed here. Figures exceeding published U.S. figures are starred, while those exceeding only the most recent (1997) U.S. figures are doubly starred. For a more contemporaneous comparison, the singly starred figures should be stressed.

Accuracy of the figures varies. Suicide may not be reported to spare the family. Thus Egypt claims a suicide rate of zero. On the other hand, Japan lists murder-suicides as suicides; if a man kills his family and himself, all are listed as suicides. The thousands of patients "euthanized" by doctors each year in the Netherlands are listed as dying from disease. There are 185 UN members, so over half of all nations, including the former Soviet Union and many African and Asian nations, reported no data at all.

Regarding suicide, the U.S. is in the middle of the pack, with 35 of the 86 nations having higher rates (38 using the most recent U.S. figure). Compared to the U.S. rate of 11.9, Russia has a rate of 41.2, Hungary 32.9, Denmark 22.3, Switzerland 21.4, France 20.8, and Japan 16.7. In general, Northern and Eastern European and Asian nations tend to have high suicide rates, while countries in Southern Europe and Latin America tend to have low rates.

Is there a relation between suicide and strictness of gun-control laws? Northern European and Asian nations tend to have high rates and strict laws, while Latin American nations tend to have low rates and more lax laws. Hence one could make a spurious claim that strict gun laws "cause" suicides. Such a claim would ignore many relevant facts. For example, Latin countries are mainly Catholic, with severe social pressures against suicide. Still, it makes as much (or as little) sense to say that gun laws "cause" suicides as that they "prevent" homicides.

The U.S. suicide rate has fluctuated between 10 and 17 for a century, with peaks in 1908 and 1932, and shows no relation to gun laws or gun availability. The current rate is below the midpoint and falling slightly. Recently suicides in the young increased. Advocates of gun laws blame the availability of guns. But suicides in older Americans decreased. The advocates ignore this fact. If something bad happens, they blame guns; if something good happens, they ignore it. And this is called "research."

Is there a correlation between suicide and homicide rates? Statistical analysis(2) shows none (r = 0.08). Nations with low suicide rates may have low (Greece) or high (Mexico) homicide rates. Nations with high suicide rates may have low (Switzerland) or high (Russia) homicide rates. Since suicide and homicide rates are not correlated, it is difficult to see how a single factor, such as gun laws, could cause major reductions in both of them.

Moving to the homicide data, we recall that America is often said to have the highest homicide rate of any "civilized," "Western," "industrialized," or "advanced" nation. Do those who make such claims believe that Mexico is uncivilized, Brazil is not in the Western Hemisphere, Russia is not industrialized, or Ukraine is retarded?

Looking at the homicide figures, we again wonder about accuracy. Are "political" killings (by the government or rebels) in Northern Ireland, Egypt, Israel, Guatemala, Peru, China, and elsewhere listed as homicides, listed separately, or concealed? We must admit that the U.S. has a higher homicide rate than any Western European nation. Still, 23 nations admit to higher rates: Armenia, Bahamas, Belarus, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Moldova, Paraguay, Philippines, Puerto Rico, Russia, Sao Tome, Tajikistan, Trinidad, Ukraine, and Venezuela. Using the 1997 U.S. homicide rate of 7.3, Azerbaijan and Cuba also have higher rates. Nine nations (ten using the 1997 figures) including Russia have both higher suicide and higher homicide rates.

There may be a lesson here. Perhaps the more we resemble Colombia with its drug wars, and Eastern Europe with its ethnic strife, the more our homicide rate will rise. In fact, homicide rates in some central cities, including Washington, D.C. with its "crack" wars, are already as high as that of Colombia. This is not an encouraging thought.

The changes in the U.S. homicide rate over time are interesting. In 1900 there were few gun laws. New York had no handgun law and California no waiting period. Guns of all types could be ordered by mail or bought anonymously. And the homicide rate was 1.2, about one-sixth of what it is today. The homicide rate peaked in 1933, during the Depression, and then fell. It was low during and after World War II, but began to rise in the 1960s and 1970s, and reached its high for this century, 10.7, in 1980. It then fell to 8.3 in 1985, a fall of 22 percent. This welcome news was virtually ignored by the media, which emphasize rises in violence but downplay decreases. Homicide rose again in the late 1980s, but not to its 1980 high. The homicide rate continued to rise following the Gun Control Act of 1968, while the fall in the early 1980s occurred when anti-crime laws but no new anti-gun laws were passed.

From 1991 to 1997 the U.S. homicide rate fell 30 percent. Liberals credit a strong economy and low unemployment; conservatives point to three-strikes laws and increasing use of the death penalty. We are uncertain which factors to credit. The portion of the population made up by males aged 15 to 24, the most crime-prone group, fell by 5 percent, so this can account for only a fraction of the 30 percent fall in homicide. In any case, the fall began in 1992, while the Brady Act (waiting period for handgun buyers) and the assault-weapons ban went into effect in 1994. Clearly, these laws cannot be credited for a fall in homicide that had begun two years earlier. Violence is often like an Rorschach test --- what we read into it depends more on us than on it. This subjectivity must be avoided.

Will extremely harsh anti-gun and anti-crime laws be more effective than conventional laws? Figures for East and West Germany, the last before the Wall came down, reveal a unique "experiment." In 1945 a uniform population was split in two. After four decades of dictatorial rule, the homicide rate in the Communist East was 0.7, hardly lower than that in the free West, 1.0. But the suicide rate in the East was 25.8, much higher than 15.8 in the West. That is, even the harshest regime prevented few homicides, but at the cost of many suicides --- hardly a fair exchange. Overly severe laws may be counterproductive as well as oppressive.

Israel and Switzerland, where most adult males keep military-type guns at home, have low homicide rates, so easy access to guns cannot be the key factor in homicide. Some nations with strict anti-gun laws also have low homicide rates, but is this cause and effect? The low homicide rate in the United Kingdom holds for both gun and non-gun homicides; strict gun laws cannot account for a low rate of fatal beatings. Japan has harsh anti-gun and anti-crime laws and a low homicide rate, but Japanese-Americans, who live under our laws and have access to guns, also have a low homicide rate. Japanese immigrants bring something with them that inhibits homicide and is transmitted to their children and grandchildren. It may be self-control or love of education, but it has nothing to do with laws. Cultural factors are clearly important. To study the effect of gun laws, statisticians would first have to correct for all the cultural differences between various nations. Not enough is known to do this. The best we can do is observing what happens when new gun laws are passed in the U.S. and Germany, or when Japanese live in the U.S. In these cases, little effect of gun laws is seen.

In telling Americans, especially young ones, that they live in the most violent nation on earth, we are slandering our country. In addition, we may be inadvertently increasing the violence. Studies reveal that children whose teachers believe they will do well actually do better in school. Children may sense their teachers' expectations and live up to them. It seems likely that children raised to believe that they come from the most violent people on earth will act accordingly. The violence-prone minority will be more violent, believing that they must strike before others attack them, while the nonviolent majority will lapse into hopeless passivity. This is not helpful to a free country.

It really comes down to what we prefer as a basis for our opinions --- facts or myths. Myths may be comforting, but they rarely lead to effective action. Myths tell us that nations with strict anti-gun laws have low rates of suicide and homicide, so the answer is easy --- pass more laws. And if the laws don't work, pass still more. Facts, on the other hand, may be disturbing. They rarely provide easy answers for complex problems.

Without the deceptive comfort of myths, we are forced to confront reality. Liberals must face the fact that despite billions spent on social programs, changes to make the justice system more "fair," and new gun-control laws, the homicide rate doubled since the 1960s. Conservatives must face the fact that despite continuing family breakup, fatherless boys, decaying schools, and loss of respect for human life, the homicide rate fell by one-third in the 1990s. Advocates of drug legalization must face the fact that this fall in homicide occurred as the "war" on drugs continued. Opponents of violent films and video games must face the fact that as these increased, homicide as well as school violence fell, despite highly publicized shootings. Conversely, liberals must admit that the recent fall in homicide was associated with three-strikes laws and increasing use of the death penalty, while conservatives must admit that the fall in homicide was associated with low unemployment and a strong economy.

In short, we all must admit that we have much to learn about the causes of violence. This requires more effort and intellectual honesty than looking to the government to pass yet another law. America is hardly the most violent nation, and our homicide rate has fallen recently, but we are more violent than we used to be --- and than we should be.

 

References


1. 1996 Demographic Yearbook. New York, United Nations, 1998.
2. Stolinsky SA, Stolinsky DC. Suicide and homicide rates do not covary. J Trauma 2000; 48:1168-1169.

http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html

 

[p_p_man]

PP man the thick cunt was confusing the Jewish lobby with the Charlton's mob.


He's been fed anti-Jew propaganda by the BBC & Channel4 who pump the "jewish conspiracy" theory out daily on their websites and various channels

No I'm not.

All I'm saying is that Americans are so fucking brainwashed by their system...

That they can't do anything unless their Administratin says OK.

Be it Gun Lobby...

Be it the jewish lobby...

Basically they're...

STOOPID!!...

ppman

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Above was posted in case you actually wanted to read something before your next hateful "America Stinky" rant.

If you don't think this stuff through, if you actually think 275 million people on a continent-sized nation with hundreds of languages are all brainwashed to think the same thing, they you will always only be a drunken lout who never changes anything.

 

[p_p_man]

America: The Most Violent Nation?

David C. Stolinsky, MD

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

And you think a quote from some obscure piece of writing gives the guy who shot the 13 year old kid permission to kill any sod he wants to...

Do me a favour...

ppman

 

[Guest]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

And you think a quote from some obscure piece of writing gives the guy who shot the 13 year old kid permission to kill any sod he wants to...

Is that what I said?

Or is that as far as you want to think about the issue?

 

[Guest]

 

[Ishmael]

Is that what I said?

Or is that as far as you want to think about the issue?

That's as far as he wants to think.

Apparently he believes that someone that would engage in the random murder of individuals (and murder is against the law isn't it/) would some how be restrained by gun bans isn't quite thinking it through.

Gun murders are up in the UK. And seem to be rising. Why? There's an out and out gun ban there.

When a government conspires to disarm it's citizenry only the law abiding are affected. Generally their status changes from citizen to 'victim'.

Ishmael

 

[Guest]

I seem to recall 16 children and a teacher being shot dead in 1996 in Scotland


It's only after that incident that the British brought in tougher gun laws


You also have to look at the population difference...more people = more nutters.


And London is officially more dangerous than New York...and thats fact

Shut the fuck up Weevil / Scruffy

 

[William7]

When a government conspires to disarm it's citizenry only the law abiding are affected. Generally their status changes from citizen to 'victim'.

Ishmael
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perfect example shown in South Africa.

 

[miles]

And yet what happened yesterday a 13 year old kid was shot in the the stomach by some mad cunt with a gun...

Instead of listening to the Gun Lobby...

Instead of listening to the jewish lobby...

Can't you arseholes say to to your gu'nor "No more. We the people say NO MORE!"

But you won't because you're all fucking cowards...

You daren't shout against your country in case you're tarnished with the same brush as REDWAVE...

ppman

Looks like someone fell off the wagon again. This is your mind on Guinness.

Hic.

 

[android1966]

Gun murders are up in the UK. And seem to be rising. Why? There's an out and out gun ban there.

Ishmael

True, we had around 35 last year. We don't actually have an out and out ban. Hunting weapons, I.E shotguns and bolt action rifles are legal.

 

[Cherry]

Re: God you Americans are pathetic...

especially PC...

Why the fuck do you think that in the UK our killing cunts are few and far between...

ppman

Why don't you try to explain THAT to Holly and Jessica's parents.

 

[Ishmael]

True, we had around 35 last year. We don't actually have an out and out ban. Hunting weapons, I.E shotguns and bolt action rifles are legal.

I believe that there are severe restrictions on those as well.

Both the UK and Oz have low numbers, that I grant you. But the trend is up, every year. The future does not bode well.

Ishmael

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yeah, London is such a safe place to live. You'd have to move to Johannesberg to find someplace with more violence per capita.

Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/03/20/ncrim20.xml

Police should emulate US tactics, says Letwin
By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor
(Filed: 20/03/2002)


NEW York City is now noticeably a safer and more pleasant place in which to live than London, according to Oliver Letwin, the shadow home secretary.

As Tony Blair prepared to chair a meeting of ministers today to discuss tackling street crime, Mr Letwin said Britain should emulate the police tactics that had transformed New York's reputation for violence and squalor.


"We need the same revolution in policing that American cities began to undergo a decade ago," he said last night following a recent visit to New York.

Even allowing for differences in collecting statistics, they support his contention that the streets of New York - especially Manhattan - are safer than London. The caveat that has to be entered, however, is that the murder rate remains much higher in the American city.

There were 171 murders in London alone, last year.

Gun control sure worked for you people. We must applaud how safe you're cities are compared to ours! No, really. You should look into Knife Control now because people are murdering each other with them. Don't forget Lorry Control because people murder each other with lorries, too. Oh, and you should get rid of alcohol. No one needs the ale, they just get drunk and kill others and do domestic violence. Imagine how gay and sunny life would be if there were no more drunken fathers beating their children and drunken mothers neglecting their babies!

You should start a petition p_p_hypocrite.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Armed patrols after shootings

An East Midlands city is putting more armed officers on the streets following a series of shootings.
Police said the increased presence was necessary after shots were fired in three parts of Nottingham in the past week.
Nottinghamshire Police has also sent out more armed vehicle patrols across the county as part of an on-going crackdown on gun crime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1578665.stm


Must be those damn gun tottin' Mericans commin' over and shootin' up the English countryside again!

Rhumb

 

[android1966]

I believe that there are severe restrictions on those as well.

Both the UK and Oz have low numbers, that I grant you. But the trend is up, every year. The future does not bode well.

Ishmael

If the future doesn't bode well for us with about 35 gun killings than the US present must be very bleak with 10,000. I'm not sure what you would term as severe. You need a secure cabinet to keep your weapons and ammunition in and will only be granted a license if you have no previous convictions for serious (felony) crimes.

 

[android1966]

Yeah, London is such a safe place to live. You'd have to move to Johannesberg to find someplace with more violence per capita.

The caveat that has to be entered, however, is that the murder rate remains much higher in the American city.

There were 171 murders in London alone, last year.

Yes and 900+ in New York. I don't think we'd really like to emulate that at all.