Naivete

[Ishmael]

I think one of the things that causes some older conservatives to see younger liberals as naive is that many were liberals at that age also. And I don't mean they were "un-knowledgable" liberals.

Shit, I voted for Humphrey and Carter. Couldn't quite get the old stomach up for McGovern.

Evolution.

Ishmael

 

[sunstruck]

Lance, you couldn't dicipline me with a stun gun and a pack of wild dogs.

You're weak, and in an attempt to make yourself feel strong, you try to make women feel weaker. It's sad really, how little control you must have in your life to feel the need to demean others so.

You came to this board with the idea that you could pat people on the head and seem superior. That doesn't work around here. You may have fooled some, but not me.

 

[Lancecastor]

Lance, you couldn't dicipline me with a stun gun and a pack of wild dogs.

Okay, I'll keep that in mind.

Did you sit on a pickle recently?

 

[Pyper]

I tend to believe that people do not necessarily become more conservative as they grow older, but that the environment becomes more liberal. Since the Victorian era, Western society has been becoming gradually more permissive. People stay more or less the same, but they react to their changing environment by digging in on their stances on life, and are thus seen as turning conservative.

I personally, after living abroad for one year, which could be consider a Major Life Experience, have become much more liberal, more than I was in my teens.

 

[Cheyenne]

Age has nothing to do with it, Lavey.
I get the same thing and I am a bit older than you are.

Sometimes, I think strong, intelligent women are not well recieved in today's society. This statement has nothing to do with whether we are right or wrong...just not well recieved. Placing us in our proverbial place, helps to keep the piece in the eyes of many.

Age has everything to do with it.

I was naive when I was younger, too. I haven't had that problem lately. At least, no one has pointed it out to me in years.

 

[Weird Harold]

Harold,

Why do you think a young, female liberal is any more naive than a young male liberal?

I don't. They're not, as a group, any more naive than young or female or whatever, conservatives or moderates. Although I sometimes think they're a tiny bit more vocal about their naivete, and therefore more visible.

The operative function here is that the slashes in the original quote are OR operators, and not additive operators. Any one of the cited groups OR combination of those groups (originally cited by diablogrl) IMHO tend to be more naive than older posters. Note, I said tend to be not ARE more naive.

 

[Siren]

 

[lavender]

 

[miles]

Shit, I voted for Humphrey and Carter. Couldn't quite get the old stomach up for McGovern.

Evolution.

Ishmael

I voted for McGovern because I was sick of the war, not because I was naive.

I was naive in '76 when I voted for Carter.

 

[Ishmael]

I tend to believe that people do not necessarily become more conservative as they grow older, but that the environment becomes more liberal. Since the Victorian era, Western society has been becoming gradually more permissive. People stay more or less the same, but they react to their changing environment by digging in on their stances on life, and are thus seen as turning conservative.

I personally, after living abroad for one year, which could be consider a Major Life Experience, have become much more liberal, more than I was in my teens.

I have to disagree. There are many ideas out there. On all sorts of subjects.

The advantage that age has is the benefit of seeing the consequences of the implementation of those ideas. To use an extreme board example, REDWAVE to be precise, some continually argue that the failures were due to the fact that they weren't implemented properly. The failure of the idea was due to the fact that it was not done as they imagine it should be done. OK But to do that is to imply that the 'idea' person is an autocrat. That extension leads us to Dictatorship.

We really do learn Pyper. In the last few years I've changed views on drugs, abortion, and the death penalty. Some of those changes were due to vigorous debate by board members. While my views were not altered to coincide with theirs exactly, they were modified. And in some cases I was met in the middle.

By equating age with stasis, you have exhibited the arrogance of youth.

Ishmael

 

[Texan]

I just took the time to read the first half of the infamous "Mink" thread. I had avoided it until this thead got may curiosity going. Now, I can go to sleep satisified.

And Lavender, the opinions you expressed in your first post in that thread were EXTREMELY naive.......

I didn't read far enought to see who called you naive for your opinions, but I can understand why that happened. Now, please print out that thread and save it for about 20 years.

 

[Siren]

 

[Cheyenne]

My opinions on animal rights and women's rights have evolved and changed from my teens into my thirties.

And they are likely to keep changing in your future decades, too.

One of the best things I ever learned in a high school class came from a cynical old man, who we all loved dearly. We were all 17 or 18 in that class. He asked us to consider how much we had matured between ages 15 and 18. Everyone noded their heads knowingly. Then he told us we'd change the same amount or more in our thinking and maturity between ages 18 and 21. I remembered that statement when I reached age 21, and realized how very correct he was. I've also remembered that statement many times since then, as the decades go by. It still holds true. You may think your ideas in your 20s are carved in stone and will never change. I'm here at 44 to tell you that they will. You just don't know it yet. Not all of them, of course. But very likely something very significant to you, personally, will change in your opinion in the future. If not, you maybe don't have such an open mind after all. How boring it would be to have all such important decisions/opinions decided for us so early in life with no growth as we age. I really don't wish that on anyone.

 

[Ishmael]

I voted for McGovern because I was sick of the war, not because I was naive.

I was naive in '76 when I voted for Carter.

Stupid is as stupid does. (Not excluding ANYONE. )

Ishmael

 

[Problem Child]

naivete has to do with not having knowledge of something........

That's not naivete, it's ignorance.

 

[Texan]

Cheyenne, that was very well said.

And Siren, a person can be just as "right" or "wrong" with a few words as with a lot of words.

 

[Ishmael]

That's not naivete, it's ignorance.

Well put, got the dictionary out again I see.

 

[Weird Harold]

you just don't get it because you grew up in a different age?

It wasn't you, but I have had that charge leveled at me, and in almost exactly those words.

 

[Problem Child]

Well put, got the dictionary out again I see.

Yeah Ish, thank God I looked it up...otherwise I never would have known difference.

 

[miles]

know I will continue to learn and grow. But, at some point, you have to give credit where credit is due. I imagine many of you realize that at age 26, I've given a lot more thought to these issues than many of your peers or contemporaries.



"Many" of us realize that you've given more thought to these issues than "many" of our peers...? Are you serious? I doubt if ANYONE realizes or cares how much thought you or anyone else put into cetain issues.

How nebulous can you get?

 

[Rubyfruit]

Excellent response, Chey.

Lav, and I mean this without malice, I get the feeling from your last post that you are more vested in defending your position on this topic than listening to what others are saying on this thread.

 

[Problem Child]

Wow, that's an obscenely huge diddle-dillio.

Carry on.

 

[Ishmael]

Yeah Ish, thank God I looked it up...otherwise I never would have known difference.

Know what you mean. It can be a bitch without a thesaurus though. Some many words to read through.

 

[Lancecastor]

Uh, Lav.....this is one of those posts you might want to print out and put in your Mystery Machine locking diary for future reference.

(You're not really enrolled in law school...are you?....is this in Costa Rica or something?)

Here is my take on this whole topic. First, I would like to concur with Pyper. She makes very valid points.

I thought for ages that I would become more conservative after college. I thought that my opinions and beliefs would, as everyone told me, be changed by more real world experience. I got out of college and worked for 2 years. My opinions actually became more liberal. I came to law school, where most people become more conservative, and am surrounded by conservatives, and yet, I have become more liberal.

I know that my views and values will evolve. I know this. But, I do not believe they will change to the extreme level, that the arguments I make to support my position can simply be discredited as naive.

Let's think about this age thing. To be honest, I think it is ageist to just refer to naivete and experience. Do you see Spinaroonie, or me or any other people younger than 30, telling those who are over 40 or over 50, or even older - you just don't get it because you grew up in a different age?

Think about this. When discussing gay rights issues on this board, many of us could discredit an older viewpoint, because the social climate that you grew up in had many different views on homosexuality. The fact that you didn't grow up around AIDs or gay rights activism, does in fact shape your ideas. But, we don't say, go away, you just are out of touch with society.

Likewise, many of the older "non naive" posters, grew up with very different values and beliefs regarding women. Many of your mothers didn't work, many of your mothers didn't attend college. Most people in my generation were raised by women with college education and jobs - not only out of necessity but also out of desire. But, when discussing gender issues, do we discredit you for not understanding the social climate? No.

On other topics, such as racial issues, many older individuals went to school prior to or right after desegregation. Neighborhoods were still very segregated. Many of you may not have had as many experiences in an equal and diverse culture. But, do we shun your beliefs and views on issues regarding race and ethnicity saying that we think you just were raised in an incorrect climate?

Do you understand that we who are "naive" look at your posts and try to attack the arguments. We try to use our own knowledge and our own perspective to argue on the issues and the points rather than pointing to age.

But, the converse is not true. Instead of looking at the arguments and trying to say, well this is valid, but this isn't and here is why, you simply chuckle and say, "what a naive little cruscader." I feel like I'm being treated like scrappy-fucking doo. (that's a cartoon character for those of you who never saw it as a child )

I have a great deal of respect for my elders. I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge and the wisdom that I can gain from them. I do not believe I have ever treated someone disrespectfully due to age on this board.

I know I will continue to learn and grow. But, at some point, you have to give credit where credit is due. I imagine many of you realize that at age 26, I've given a lot more thought to these issues than many of your peers or contemporaries.

So please, consider this the next time you just want to discredit the view of a moderately intelligent woman, who happens to not have had two decades worth of work experience under their belt.

Respect is reciprocal. You earn it, you don't automatically receive it. This is regardless of age.

 

[Siren]