Multi-culturalism - by Walter Williams

[LovetoGiveRoses]

What do you think about what he says?

The multiculturists are right in saying that in a just society, people of all races and cultures should be equal in the eyes of the law. But their argument borders on idiocy when they argue that one culture cannot be judged superior to another and to do so is Eurocentrism. For them, different cultural values are morally equivalent. That's unbridled nonsense. Ask your multiculturalist friends: Is forcible female genital mutilation, as practiced in nearly 30 sub-Saharan African and Middle Eastern countries, a morally equivalent cultural value? Slavery is practiced in Northern Sudan; is it morally equivalent? In most of the Middle East, there are numerous limits placed on women such as prohibitions on driving, employment and education. Under Islamic law, in some countries, women adulterers face death by stoning, and thieves face the punishment of having their hand severed. Are these cultural values morally equivalent, superior or inferior to ours?

Western values are superior to all others. Why? The indispensable achievement of the West was the concept of individual rights. It's the idea that individuals have certain inalienable rights, and individuals do not exist to serve government but governments exist to protect these inalienable rights. It took until the 17th century for that idea to arrive on the scene and mostly through the works of British philosophers such as John Locke and David Hume.

While Western values are superior to all others, one need not be a Westerner to hold Western values. A person can be Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, African or Arab and hold Western values. It's no accident that Western values of reason and individual rights have produced unprecedented health, life expectancy, wealth and comfort for the ordinary person. There's an indisputable positive relationship between liberty and standards of living.

 

[busybody..]

Hey isnt that the same shit I say?

and called a RACIST because of it?

Since Im not black, I cant say it.........

 

[medjay]

It's bullshit.

You can't use a moral barometer to judge one culture superior to another. Yes they're different and behave in different ways but once you start to point the finger and say I'm better than you because of so-and-so it just sounds like arrogance.

I disagree with mutilating women's genitals but I also disagree with wasting tons of food and driving gas guzzling cars and so forth.

Glass houses . . . stones. You know the saying.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Can I say that I prefer the culture that I live in (shared by the Western Countries), warts and all? I think it's vastly superior, for me anyway. I prefer not to live in a culture where there is massive starvation because of failed policies or lunatic leaders. I prefer not to live in a country where there is genital mutilation. I prefer not to live in a country where people are put to death for adultery. Is this "preference" for my culture over another a "moral" choice? I'm not sure if it's a "moral" choice or not, but I am sure that the culture that I live in (Western European) is superior as far as I'm concerned. It provides more freedom, more choices, better health, more food and a higher standard of living. I'm making a choice. Who is saying that I can't make a choice that I prefer this culture?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

When confronted with term papers from a class of students, I'll bet I can make a choice about which is better. When given choices for players to pick in a draft, I can make a choice which is better. Why can't I make a choice about which culture I like better?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Sure, we waste a lot of gas in SUVs (I don't have an SUV, I have a small sports car) but is that "equal" to genital mutilation...so that both are "equal"?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I'm on a roll.

I usually get on rolls when there's something else I'm supposed to be doing. I'm trying to figure out how to make DVD-R from a DVD+RW. Thats esoteric electronics fiddling I think.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Walter "No-neck" Williams should have stuck to baseball. He was pretty good at that at one time.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Don't get me wrong, my "message" is one that includes the US, Canada, Oz, Australia, Europe and parts of Asia as "Western" Culture...and it clearly includes everyone in our "family" of the US irregardless of race, creed or toe size.

 

[medjay]

Can I say that I prefer the culture that I live in (shared by the Western Countries), warts and all? I think it's vastly superior, for me anyway. I prefer not to live in a culture where there is massive starvation because of failed policies or lunatic leaders. I prefer not to live in a country where there is genital mutilation. I prefer not to live in a country where people are put to death for adultery. Is this "preference" for my culture over another a "moral" choice? I'm not sure if it's a "moral" choice or not, but I am sure that the culture that I live in (Western European) is superior as far as I'm concerned. It provides more freedom, more choices, better health, more food and a higher standard of living. I'm making a choice. Who is saying that I can't make a choice that I prefer this culture?

I also prefer to live in the U.S. It has a lot of perks (most of which are listed in your post). But I also realize that there are a lot of fucked up things that go on here too. We aren't some perfect untopian society. Our tendencies toward waste and pollution are outrageous. We routinely throw away enough food to feed everyone in those countries that we love to point fingers at, which I find rather sickening.

The U.S. is probably the best country to live in and the "western" way of thinking can be applauded in many aspects. But we still haven't earned the right to be judgmental.

 

[medjay]

I think the main problelm I have with the above essay is this:

"Western values are superior to all others."

Blanket statements like this are foolish and ignorant and take away from any good ideas that might be contained in the writing. He makes a lot of good points but then comes off like a high schooler by making sweeping statements about large groups of people. It's not a wise way present ideas.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

... But their argument borders on idiocy when they argue that one culture cannot be judged superior to another and to do so is Eurocentrism.

That statement is also foolish.

Where did he get this idea? From a "multiculturalism for dummies" book?

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

The "western" way of thinking can be applauded in many aspects. But we still haven't earned the right to be judgmental.

Overall, I agree with most of your points. However, as a mnor point of disagreement, I don't think we need to "earn" the ability to be judgemental and I think we can be judgemental. Maybe we can't be judgemental in the "world court" kind of way, but a preference is a judgement in and of itself. "I prefer freedom", for example is a judgement, and, in fact, I do prefer freedom.

Just because I prefer freedom, doesn't mean that I have the right to "force" freedom on someone else in another country or have the "right" or the "moral imperitive" to tell them what to do. But it does give me the right to ignore them if they try to impose their will on us or to harm us in any way.

I don't have to "earn" the ability to be judgemental. In fact, to restrain myself would be to artificially styfle my own voice.

 

[medjay]

Overall, I agree with most of your points. However, as a mnor point of disagreement, I don't think we need to "earn" the ability to be judgemental and I think we can be judgemental. Maybe we can't be judgemental in the "world court" kind of way, but a preference is a judgement in and of itself. "I prefer freedom", for example is a judgement, and, in fact, I do prefer freedom.

Just because I prefer freedom, doesn't mean that I have the right to "force" freedom on someone else in another country or have the "right" or the "moral imperitive" to tell them what to do. But it does give me the right to ignore them if they try to impose their will on us or to harm us in any way.

I don't have to "earn" the ability to be judgemental. In fact, to restrain myself would be to artificially styfle my own voice.

I see where you're coming from. The difference for me is my thought process tends to be, Whew! I'm glad I don't live over there! as opposed to, Those bassackwards people need to be more like us. (Not to imply this is your feeling on the matter).

That's how I make my "choice" without passing judgment on a culture that's been around for thousands of years.

Straying for a bit, I think it's really important that people travel abroad in order to make these kinds of decisions for themselves. It's only after you've visited another country that you're really able to see the pros and cons of your own homeland.

To be able to make that comparison yourself, without the help of the media or biased essays like the one above, is of the utmost importance. After I left the U.S. and came back I had a totally different (and less naive) outlook on world affairs.

 

[busybody..]

The fact that the Western culture has

some warts.......doesnt mean that iit is not superior to others.

There is no question whatsoever that the Western culture is FAR SUPERIOR to the:

African/Muslim/Arab culture........

 

[busybody..]

These days it has become TABOO to be

"judgemental" lest we "offend" someone.....therefore we are forced to endure the stupid notion that "All are the same and equal" and that "They are just as good as us, though a bit different"

That type of sick thinking has led to all sorts of horrors, and denies the REALITY on the ground!

There is in fact a huge difference between cutures.....and so many of those that LIVE in INFERIOR cultures.....either come to LIVE WITH US......or if they can afford to, LIVE IN THE SAME LIFESTYLE AS WE DO!

 

[peachykeen]

Straying for a bit, I think it's really important that people travel abroad in order to make these kinds of decisions for themselves. It's only after you've visited another country that you're really able to see the pros and cons of your own homeland.

To be able to make that comparison yourself, without the help of the media or biased essays like the one above, is of the utmost importance. After I left the U.S. and came back I had a totally different (and less naive) outlook on world affairs.

I couldn't agree more. One of the things I most wanted to get out of living over here in the UK was a better understanding for myself of what it meant to be an American. And I sure am getting it. Actually I am starting to think that living abroad for a few years should be a prerequisite for running for office at anything above the state level.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I see where you're coming from. The difference for me is my thought process tends to be, Whew! I'm glad I don't live over there! as opposed to, Those bassackwards people need to be more like us. (Not to imply this is your feeling on the matter).

That's how I make my "choice" without passing judgment on a culture that's been around for thousands of years.

Straying for a bit, I think it's really important that people travel abroad in order to make these kinds of decisions for themselves. It's only after you've visited another country that you're really able to see the pros and cons of your own homeland.

To be able to make that comparison yourself, without the help of the media or biased essays like the one above, is of the utmost importance. After I left the U.S. and came back I had a totally different (and less naive) outlook on world affairs.

I go to lots of different places. The problems in South America are making me very sad, there's malnutrition and starvation in Argentina now, a country that had a thriving economy a decade ago.

My computer is giving me lots of problems and keeps interrupting me telling me something is screwy with the DVD writer. Catch you later.

 

[medjay]

Re: The fact that the Western culture has

There is no question whatsoever that the Western culture is FAR SUPERIOR to the:

African/Muslim/Arab culture........

Have you gone to buy your dashiki yet? I've got some nice beads for you to put in your hair, too. Mastering the drum rhythms might be a little tricky for you at first but you'll get the hang of it. The motherland is calling you, brother!

 

[busybody..]

South Africa and Rhodesia had thriving economies during

white rule.....Their surrounding countries lived in SHIT.....Now that the blacks have taken over.....These two once SOUND, AFE, ECONOMICALLY STRONG countries have turned into SHIT as their neughbors.......Even their black citizens are WORSE off under the black rule.......WHY?

The Jews took dessert in Israel and turned it into a thriving economy.....the Arabs/Muslims that have so much more money still live in squalor........WHY??????

 

[busybody..]

DocJay

You can BS all you want......

FACTS are FACTS......as a whole BLACK/MUSLIMS/ARABS.......are backwards as compared to US!........

 

[SINthysist]

The weakness of moral relativism, it is wrong to pass judgment.

I can and do judge cultures that are thousands of years old because they refuse to redress the problems of escalating population and dwindling resources causing their venerable asses to starve.

It’s okay to feel superior to that and adjudge such a system as “failed.” Like REDWAVE’s fabled Trotskyism. Some things in this world have inherent flaws which doom them to extinction.

That’s where the real argument here is with medjay LTGR, you let him argue as a moral relativist instead of calling him on it…

 

[busybody..]

DocJay

Why arent you banging the drums when the Sudan enslave BLACKS????

Why arent you banging the drums when BALCKS in Zimbabwa are DELIBERATLY STARVING THEIR OWN BLACK PEOPLE??????

You scream your black head off because we use 16 more gallons of gas.......and say THAT EQUAL!!!!!

You people are pathetic........

Stick your hand out....Ill drop a nickel bag by you when I pass.

 

[medjay]

Re: DocJay

Stick your hand out....Ill drop a nickel bag by you when I pass.

Thanks! I'll go back to your neighborhood and sell it then take the money to put more gas in my big pimp ass Caddy.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

The weakness of moral relativism, it is wrong to pass judgment....

Damn, and all this time I thought it was Jesus Christ who said it was wrong to pass judgment. Thanks for enlightening me.

Western European Civilization owes such a tremendous debt to the Muslim/Arab world from the Middle Ages, that it's just so much "presentism" to say that it is superior. Sort of like getting mad at your grandparents who are such dopes b/c they don't know how to operate a computer as well as you do.

And since the US was built by the labor of slaves and immigrants from all over the world, condemning multiculturalism is like pissing in the wind.