monogamy-why?

[Aaron Dazer]

I’d like to say I’m sorry for those who may have felt insulted or attacked by my posting. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between an intelligent Health Debate and Being Judgmental. I take it those who chose to state I’m being insulting and Judgmental can’t rebuttal my Statements. I didn’t just stand out and attack anyone and any aggression I imposed was in defense.

As far as being Judgmental I’m not so inclined. This is a Thread with a Moral and Personal topic. Joining in debating that isn’t Being Judgmental. If anything I’m passionate about Monogamy and believe Polyanything is against the good practice of Commitment and Loyalty by hiding behind a Verbal Commitment. When I feel with very very rare exception poloanything is just another form of waiting for something better to come along with out the tossing of the first asset. Yes as said before Commitment it self isn’t constrained to two persons. I’m using commitment in a different form here. One can commitment to not being committed which IMO isn’t commitment.

And I’m glade we got Definitions out, cleared some of my own ignorance as I’m sure it did many others. For this reason I’ll clarify some of my before mentioned points.

In using ReadyOne definitions

Polygamous/Polyandry: Being in a cultural or religion that accepts the practice of multiple wives/husbands isn’t what I considered in many of my arguments this is a wholly different topic. However I feel this is an ancient outdated from of culture that doesn’t have an acceptable place in a modern Developed world. Most if not all Developed nations have laws forbidding it.

Polyamory – IMO is an escape from true commitment. Entering a relationship and saying I’m going to have sex with others, swing etc.. lacks the Fundamental Values a Healthy good relationship needs. It’s a joining of sexual retaliations and not giving your self to one completely which IMO is a prerequisite for being in love. If a group of people have a strong friendship along with a sexual attraction it’s not being In Love. It’s loving each other and having sex as well. Thought this relationship could be virtuous it’s selling your self short of the next step of full unity.

Being in a Monogamist relationship and years later choosing or deciding your now Polly is failing at the previous relationship. with the exception of terminating that one and establishing a new one with different Partners who enter the new one with Commitment to the new life style.

People in a Polylifestyle of any befor-mentioned ideas in no way Threaten me. I feel they are selling themselves short and fear surrendering to love.

 

[sxylegs]

I didn't feel that you were being insulting or judgemental.....you were great and I learned a lot in reading your posts.....and yes i went to other threads to see your views on other subjects. Even though we dont completely agree, I didnt feel that we were against each other just because our views are different. I find you very refreshing......

thanks for the insights and different ways to look at things!!!

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Another note:

One who stands by whatever commitment they make (unless harmful or degrading to others) and maintains Loyalty IMHO are individuals who are Virtuous and righteous.

One who fails at Commitment and lack Loyalty is weak/weak-minded. But not necessarily a bad person only human.

One who in conscience rebukes commitment/loyalty is Rotten. And if does so with consistency is evil.

The strength of your Virtue is as strong as the real or inner demons you face. The Comely are tempted more then the Homely. Untested Virtue however can be as grate as the one with the highest burden..

“To be homely and committed is easy. To be comely and committed is hard. That’s why Americans have such a High Divorce rate we're better looking.“ (spoken in jest)

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Monogamy is a higher state of being not a restriction. The only ones who challenge it are those too week to accomplish it.
Aaron 15 years of every desire fulfilled.

Aaron - this was your first post. Right off the bat you're calling people who believe differently than you weak (or week?!?! lol) Sorry - I know you're voicing your opinion - but that's bound to piss someone off. I know this cuz I habitually piss married people off with my flip anti-marriage answers.......

Plus - your rather sporadic use of capitalization makes it very hard to read your posts and made me grumpy too!

You are entitled to your opinions just as everyone is. Every so often the feathers fly - that's what happens quite often when different opinions are shared.

 

[SweetErika]

I'm just curious about something....if you are only involved with your husband and no one else then how can you consider that nonmonogamous? I'm just curious what your justification for that one is.

KinkyKiki

I said I wasn't involved with any men other than my husband. Because I consider women people too, I think having relationships and sex with them while I'm married makes me non-monogamous. While it's not exactly the same as going outside my marriage to be with other men, it certainly raises many of the same issues, which my husband and I have used as a foundation for conversations and setting boundaries. At first, I had a difficult time dealing with the realization that I wasn't monogamous, but my husband and I feel it's not negative when done correctly and it is the right choice for us at this time in our lives.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

I didn't feel that you were being insulting or judgemental.....you were great and I learned a lot in reading your posts.....and yes i went to other threads to see your views on other subjects. Even though we dont completely agree, I didnt feel that we were against each other just because our views are different. I find you very refreshing......

thanks for the insights and different ways to look at things!!!

Thanks and this all did dispel a presumption of mine. Being Polywhaterever isn’t necessarily dishonorable. Which brings me to the conclusion, one who for whatever reason or another that can’t commitment to one person shouldn’t unless that lack is due to weakness.

However IMO the best love requires complete surrender. Not necessarily the right love. (Yes I still see that little bit where I still just can’t agree )

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Aaron - this was your first post. Right off the bat you're calling people who believe differently than you weak (or week?!?! lol) Sorry - I know you're voicing your opinion - but that's bound to piss someone off. I know this cuz I habitually piss married people off with my flip anti-marriage answers.......

Plus - your rather sporadic use of capitalization makes it very hard to read your posts and made me grumpy too!

You are entitled to your opinions just as everyone is. Every so often the feathers fly - that's what happens quite often when different opinions are shared.

Yes your right. it was a bit harsh. (sorry about random CAPTs it's a strange habbit of mine i haven't figured out why i do it though.)

But let me lighten it now it's been argued. Monogamy and true complete love requires surrendering to it. And I feel Polywhatever is the inability to surrender to it. Which can be argued as strength.

Surrendering completely to commitment, unity and Love is a higher state of being. Not monogamy it’s self.

and please don’t get me started on anti-marriage. ack you got me.

I’ll just say this if you don’t want to married you shouldn’t. but your selling your self short if you don’t

 

[KinkyKiki]

I said I wasn't involved with any men other than my husband. Because I consider women people too, I think having relationships and sex with them while I'm married makes me non-monogamous. While it's not exactly the same as going outside my marriage to be with other men, it certainly raises many of the same issues, which my husband and I have used as a foundation for conversations and setting boundaries. At first, I had a difficult time dealing with the realization that I wasn't monogamous, but my husband and I feel it's not negative when done correctly and it is the right choice for us at this time in our lives.

Oh ok I get it, didn't realize you were being with women. In that case you're right, you're definitely not monogamous.

KinkyKiki

 

[sxylegs]

[

But let me lighten it now it's been argued. Monogamy and true complete love requires surrendering to it. And I feel Polywhatever is the inability to surrender to it. Which can be argued as strength.

Surrendering completely to commitment, unity and Love is a higher state of being. Not monogamy it’s self.

and please don’t get me started on anti-marriage. ack you got me.


Im sorry.....what has monogamy got to do with marriage? and in a pure and complete love, most dont even consider monogamy. pure and true complete love doesnt bind or restrict.

 

[sxylegs]

[

But let me lighten it now it's been argued. Monogamy and true complete love requires surrendering to it. And I feel Polywhatever is the inability to surrender to it. Which can be argued as strength.

Surrendering completely to commitment, unity and Love is a higher state of being. Not monogamy it’s self.

and please don’t get me started on anti-marriage. ack you got me.


Im sorry.....what has monogamy got to do with marriage? and in a pure and complete love, most dont even consider monogamy. pure and true complete love doesnt bind or restrict.

boy....that sure screwed up that post.......dont know what happened there....

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Yes your right. it was a bit harsh. (sorry about random CAPTs it's a strange habbit of mine i haven't figured out why i do it though.)
But let me lighten it now it's been argued. Monogamy and true complete love requires surrendering to it. And I feel Polywhatever is the inability to surrender to it. Which can be argued as strength.
Surrendering completely to commitment, unity and Love is a higher state of being. Not monogamy it’s self.
and please don’t get me started on anti-marriage. ack you got me.
I’ll just say this if you don’t want to married you shouldn’t. but your selling your self short if you don’t

Ok - out of curiosity - what do you think of people who marry 5, 6, 7 times? Do you think there ought to be a limit?


PS - I feel you're selling yourself short if you DO get married! Especially women.......

 

[BTK51]

Ok - out of curiosity - what do you think of people who marry 5, 6, 7 times? Do you think there ought to be a limit?


PS - I feel you're selling yourself short if you DO get married! Especially women.......

It is unrealistic to put a limit unless you make the limit one. I am making the assumption that you are talking about divorce/remarriage as opposed to death or annulment. As to my feelings on it, anything greater than two tells me that they either have no concept of marriage or don’t take it seriously. Therefore, I don’t even consider it a marriage. The second marriage makes me skeptical but if the 2nd marriage lasts and is a true marriage, then my skepticism is ill-founded.

Why do you say that you are selling yourself short if you DO get married and why especially women?

 

[crazybbwgirl]

It is unrealistic to put a limit unless you make the limit one. I am making the assumption that you are talking about divorce/remarriage as opposed to death or annulment. As to my feelings on it, anything greater than two tells me that they either have no concept of marriage or don’t take it seriously. Therefore, I don’t even consider it a marriage. The second marriage makes me skeptical but if the 2nd marriage lasts and is a true marriage, then my skepticism is ill-founded.

Why do you say that you are selling yourself short if you DO get married and why especially women?

Because - IMHO - marriage tends to hold women down and raise men up. All that role justification. "I worked longer/harder than you did today....." blah blah blah..... It almost seems like marriage ends up pitting the husband against the wife in so many instances. (Of course I don't mean ALL marriages!) Plus there's the financial aspects. Women are primarily the caregivers of children, work less, therefore earn less - which can be very detrimental later on. It seems like married men end up viewing their wives as 'property' as something 'owned'. And women end up viewing their husbands as a paycheck. I think it discourages women from becoming all they can become. I think many women 'settle' for a husband because somewhere they heard that a man will take care of you....... I could go on and on.....

 

[sxylegs]

Because - IMHO - marriage tends to hold women down and raise men up. All that role justification. "I worked longer/harder than you did today....." blah blah blah..... It almost seems like marriage ends up pitting the husband against the wife in so many instances. (Of course I don't mean ALL marriages!) Plus there's the financial aspects. Women are primarily the caregivers of children, work less, therefore earn less - which can be very detrimental later on. It seems like married men end up viewing their wives as 'property' as something 'owned'. And women end up viewing their husbands as a paycheck. I think it discourages women from becoming all they can become. I think many women 'settle' for a husband because somewhere they heard that a man will take care of you....... I could go on and on.....

What you say goes along with the movie "Mona Lisa Smile" I usually dont talk that much about movies, but that one touched on this point. All those women were being groomed to be the wife of an important man.....instead of making something of themselves. Even though in today's society we do move forward, there is still that lingering that we are behind men....Men are to take care of us......

 

[crazybbwgirl]

What you say goes along with the movie "Mona Lisa Smile" I usually dont talk that much about movies, but that one touched on this point. All those women were being groomed to be the wife of an important man.....instead of making something of themselves. Even though in today's society we do move forward, there is still that lingering that we are behind men....Men are to take care of us......

My daughter told me I'd like that movie. I'll have to check it out. I fear that even today too many young women are told - indirectly if not directly - that all you need to do is find a good man and settle down. I find this demeaning, short sighted, unfair and a plethora of other adjectives lol! ok - I'll give my soapbox a rest now......

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Im sorry.....what has monogamy got to do with marriage? and in a pure and complete love, most dont even consider monogamy. pure and true complete love doesnt bind or restrict.

Bind or restrict um.. You can go lots of places with that. If you’re truly in love you don't think about having relations with anyone else. If your Truly in love all your thoughts and actions center around the object of that love. And there is a different between unconditional Love and True love your thinking unconditional.

“Oh Honey we both love each other more then anyone else. Lets go have sex with other people. And love them too.”

Sounds more like Cult Brain Washing applied to a relationship to me.

“Oh Honey we both truly love each other give me all your money and go kill yourself just to show me ok? I’ll do it for you right offer.”

True Love doesn't deify logic or Reason, it incorporates them. Logic and reason define mutually beneficial boundaries and restrictions.

If I’m not mistaken in Mona Lisa Smile. it was about Choice. Choice the woman has to enter that role. (i'm not saying anything else to avoid ruining the movie.)

There is a Clear difference in assuming a Role in a relationship and being forced into one. If you meet someone who loves you, they won't force you.

crazybbwgirl your definition of marriage sounds like a Red-Neck one. Even with the high standards I hold for marriage anyone in your ‘Defined type of marriage.” I’d suggest to them to get out of it and find someone who loves you.


As far as Limits to Marriage Ideally in my mind it is one, only acceptable end, death by natural causes, or punishment for infidelity (JK).

Typically People who get married 5 or more times are marriage happy. People who are looking for ‘The One’ and are using Marriage as a Filter. They may have the right idea but are totaling going about it wrong. I’m not going to argue this point it opens a whole new thread.


Ask your self this, “are you right because you are right? Or because you don’t want to be wrong?”

 

[crazybbwgirl]

My 'definition' of marriage is from what I see around me. Granted - this is a pretty red-necked place - I won't argue you there.

But do you think someone who keeps trying and trying is any better than the person who sees for himself that marriage is not for him and doesn't try it at all? Doesn't the first person make a mockery of marriage? Isn't the second person of higher moral standard because they can see marriage for what it is and know they don't want any part of it?

 

[KinkyKiki]

Because - IMHO - marriage tends to hold women down and raise men up. All that role justification. "I worked longer/harder than you did today....." blah blah blah..... It almost seems like marriage ends up pitting the husband against the wife in so many instances. (Of course I don't mean ALL marriages!) Plus there's the financial aspects. Women are primarily the caregivers of children, work less, therefore earn less - which can be very detrimental later on. It seems like married men end up viewing their wives as 'property' as something 'owned'. And women end up viewing their husbands as a paycheck. I think it discourages women from becoming all they can become. I think many women 'settle' for a husband because somewhere they heard that a man will take care of you....... I could go on and on.....

Ok I can agree with a lot of what you said actually. Unfortunately this is a reality of some marriages. And at least you did say not ALL marriages, but actually I think it's more like not MOST marriages. It is the case of a lot of marriages yes, but not really the majority.

KinkyKiki

 

[sxylegs]

Ok...so unconditional love is unrestricting.....not true love......
I myself restrict myself.....I make me monogamous, I expect the same and if I dont get it I hit the door.
I guess it was from people who swing that really tried to convince me that if you really love someone that you wouldnt care what biological they performed.....and sex is just a biological function. My boyfriend tries to tell me that every so often too....

I get hit on a lot.....I own my own business and have lots of customers....so I feel that it is very hard to be faithful.....but it is something that I enjoy giving to my boyfriend......

 

[SweetErika]

Bind or restrict um.. You can go lots of places with that. If you’re truly in love you don't think about having relations with anyone else. If your Truly in love all your thoughts and actions center around the object of that love.

Umm...realistically, how many people never, ever think about having relations with anyone else and all of their thoughts and actions revolve around the object of their love? That doesn't sound like true love, it sounds like a very, very unhealthy obsession. Most people think about having relations (sex or other) with someone other that their partner at least once in awhile....that doesn't mean they're not truly in love, it means they are HUMAN! Additionally, your definition of "true love" is the kind of binding, antiquated idea that many people don't like...it requires losing yourself in pursuit of an unrealistic ideal.

“Oh Honey we both love each other more then anyone else. Lets go have sex with other people. And love them too.”

Sounds more like Cult Brain Washing applied to a relationship to me.

Wanting to have sex with other people does not mean you don't love eachother. It means you love eachother enough to encourage your spouse to be the best, happiest person they can be and recognize their sexuality. We're not in a cult and we haven't been brainwashed, and neither are the other people who think this way.

True Love doesn't deify logic or Reason, it incorporates them. Logic and reason define mutually beneficial boundaries and restrictions.

The way you've defined true love here DOES defy logic and reason...it's unreasonable to expect yourself or your partner to be the sole object of your thoughts and actions.

I've always liked the definition " true love is doing the higher good for the other person and relationship". Many times that means putting their needs before yours. Sometimes it means leaving them or getting them help (e.g. in the case of codependency/abuse). A lot of times it means recognizing your own needs so you can be a better partner. That's logic, reason, and realistic in my mind.

 

[SweetErika]

I guess it was from people who swing that really tried to convince me that if you really love someone that you wouldnt care what biological they performed.....and sex is just a biological function. My boyfriend tries to tell me that every so often too....

While I respect people who think sex is purely a biological function, I just can't do it. "Sex is emotion in motion" is a quote I've always agreed strongly with. But to each his/her own, eh?

 

[KinkyKiki]

Umm...realistically, how many people never, ever think about having relations with anyone else and all of their thoughts and actions revolve around the object of their love? That doesn't sound like true love, it sounds like a very, very unhealthy obsession. Most people think about having relations (sex or other) with someone other that their partner at least once in awhile....that doesn't mean they're not truly in love, it means they are HUMAN!

[/B][/QUOTE]

I hate when people use the excuse "we're only human" or something equivelant. It implies that men and women both are just so barbaric they just can't help themselves from wanting to be with other people. This is absolutely not true. And as for your first question I can answer that there's at least one person....probably many more. I never ever think about having relations with anyone else and all my thoughts (at least romantically, sexually, relationship speaking) are of him and only him. I am in no way obsessed nor is it an unhealthy relationship. Nor do I have to force myself to think that way or to not look at other people or to be monogamous....that's just how it is for me when I'm with someone I'm in a committed relationship with. So it is not just human nature for people to check out everyone else.

KinkyKiki

 

[James G 5]

No, I didn't follow you over here. That is a rather inflated opinion you have of yourself to think that someone would follow you around the boards. I post over here also.

In another thread on monogamy, I used the word 'differentiation' and you did your cut and paste thing from your online dictionary and it was totally inappropriate. I told you that I was using the Bowen sense of the word. It was clear that you had never heard of Murray Bowen, and it was also clear that, rather than take an opportunity to learn about Bowen, you cut and pasted from some other online dictionary with a reference to Bowen. I turned the tables on you and your use of the word 'rape' and saying that you had suffered rape. When I called you on it, you tried to start a fight by calling me a Republican. Anyone intersested in it can read it here

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276423&perpage=25&pagenumber=5

Here is a link to the Bowen Center at Georgetown University. http://www.thebowencenter.org/index.html

I'm not a close minded bigot. I just don't like you.

No, I asked you about differentiation because you HADN'T mentioned Bowen prior to...when you did, I went & looked him up
I posted the actual definition of the word because the way you used it made no sense without the explanation you gave when I asked
I see you studied your fact adjusting methods from Ann Coulter & FOX "News"

 

[James G 5]

This is the craziest damn conversation I think I've ever heard!!!! I personally believe that polygomy is wrong....very wrong! Anything outside of two people faithfully committed to each other and ONLY each other is wrong. But that's just me, I may not agree with other people but I'm not going to judge them on their beliefs since that's not my place. If everyone would just go along with that and be respectful then maybe we wouldn't have a need for this insantiy.

KinkyKiki

See, that's where there's a problem
Feeling it's wrong for YOU is ok
Feeling it's wrong for OTHERS, unless you can prove harm, and acting on that feeling is wrong and hurtful to others

You want monogamy for you, GREAT! I hope you're very happy
Just don't disparage me for living differently

 

[James G 5]

Thanks to everyone who helped clear up my muddled understanding of these terms. It's oh so much clearer now! lol But seriously I find this a very interesting topic and never cease to be amazed by the very stident opinions of both sides. I find it interesting that many monogamous people feel so threatened by even the idea of any type of poly (pick one!) AND that they defend monogamy so strongly. Its kinda heartwarming really. I still am unsure which category I fall into - but oh well......

A lot of people wrap up their self image in the idea that they ARE their ideas and beliefs, and unfortunately become fixed and inflexible in them
When those ideas and beliefs are challenged, people take it as an assault on THEMSELVES
Rather than looking at the idea, they respond with rage at being attacked
This goes across a broad spectrum of people and beliefs
I'll even cop to being guilty of it at times
And some of us who belong to groups that get assaulted because our beliefs challenge the mainstream get awful defensive

It makes reasoned debate hard at times, but I still try, as do plenty of others

Even when some people make an effort to follow us around & call us shit heads