Miles, UncleBill and other Libertarians
- Thread starter lavender
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I'm not sure if there is a formal Party Platform. I have never looked for one. My Libertarian affiliation is derived from my Objectivist ethics. It is the only political party which comes close to correlating with Objectivist principles, thus my affiliation.
If I can find such a statement, I will post it. But if you peruse the National LP web site, you'll see that the Libertarian political group comes from very diverse philosophical backgrounds.
I have encountered NOTHING in the Libertarian campaigns or candidate statements which cause me concerns for their position on individual rights and freedoms.
All of the other political parties in America openly advocate certain limitations and constraints on individual rights and freedoms. And the idea of freedom is analogous to the old adage about being a little bit pregnant.
It's not a matter of degree, it's a yes or no proposition. There is no compromise between freedom and slavery.
If I can find such a statement, I will post it. But if you peruse the National LP web site, you'll see that the Libertarian political group comes from very diverse philosophical backgrounds.
I have encountered NOTHING in the Libertarian campaigns or candidate statements which cause me concerns for their position on individual rights and freedoms.
All of the other political parties in America openly advocate certain limitations and constraints on individual rights and freedoms. And the idea of freedom is analogous to the old adage about being a little bit pregnant.
It's not a matter of degree, it's a yes or no proposition. There is no compromise between freedom and slavery.
KillerMuffin
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What is freedom? I see this in libertarian rhetoric all the time. Freedom!!! But what is freedom?
Markov Cain
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The freedom to own property - taken away via property tax.
The freedom to earn a living wage - taken away by income tax.
The freedom to say what's on your mind - taken away by hate crimes laws.
the freedom to be secure on your property - taken away by #1 and seatbelt laws.
The freedom to raise your own child - oh why the hell flagellate a deceased equine...
The freedom to earn a living wage - taken away by income tax.
The freedom to say what's on your mind - taken away by hate crimes laws.
the freedom to be secure on your property - taken away by #1 and seatbelt laws.
The freedom to raise your own child - oh why the hell flagellate a deceased equine...
M
miles
Guest
Lav
At the bottom of the page, click Contents, and it will give you this list:
BTW, someone on another thread said they agreed and disagreed with parts of the Lib. philosophy. I asked him/her/whatever which ones they agreed or disagreed
with and directed them to the site.
And I'm not a freak. Sleazeball - maybe.
Historical Roots of Libertarianism
The American Founding Fathers
Classical Liberalism
Theoretical Roots of Libertarianism
Philosophy
Ayn Rand and Objectivism
Economics
Austrian Economics
Applications to Specific Policy Issues
Defense and International Affairs
Trade and Immigration
Regulation and Property Rights
Environmentalism
Science and Technology
Gun Rights
Free Speech and Civil Liberties
Drug Prohibition
Sex, Gambling, and Consensual Crimes
Welfare and Social Security
Self-Help and Psychology
Feminism
Education and Children
Taxes and Taxation
Deficits and Spending
Banking and Money
Courts and Constitutions
The Modern Libertarian Movement
Anarchism
Conservatism
Politics
Government Reform
Contemporary Libertarianism
At the bottom of the page, click Contents, and it will give you this list:
BTW, someone on another thread said they agreed and disagreed with parts of the Lib. philosophy. I asked him/her/whatever which ones they agreed or disagreed
with and directed them to the site.
And I'm not a freak. Sleazeball - maybe.
Historical Roots of Libertarianism
The American Founding Fathers
Classical Liberalism
Theoretical Roots of Libertarianism
Philosophy
Ayn Rand and Objectivism
Economics
Austrian Economics
Applications to Specific Policy Issues
Defense and International Affairs
Trade and Immigration
Regulation and Property Rights
Environmentalism
Science and Technology
Gun Rights
Free Speech and Civil Liberties
Drug Prohibition
Sex, Gambling, and Consensual Crimes
Welfare and Social Security
Self-Help and Psychology
Feminism
Education and Children
Taxes and Taxation
Deficits and Spending
Banking and Money
Courts and Constitutions
The Modern Libertarian Movement
Anarchism
Conservatism
Politics
Government Reform
Contemporary Libertarianism
M
miles
Guest
From the dictionary
The condition of being free of restraints.
Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
Political independence.
Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly
A state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any, or to any undue, restraints and restrictions
The condition of being free of restraints.
Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
Political independence.
Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly
A state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any, or to any undue, restraints and restrictions
Markov Cain
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Studies at a Liberal institution?
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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Ayn Rand was a fascinating psycho!
The Libertarians are followers of that fabulous adventure book writer, Ayn Rand, who never dealt with RACE, RELIGION, or many other longstanding causes of war in her endless "Objectivist' works (which I loved when i was 12). It was, however, in ATLAS SHRUGGED & THE FOUNTAINHEAD that I first discovered rough sex! Dagne Taggart gets fucked unto battering by the steel man Hank Rearden on a train in AS, and Dominque gets raped in her bedroom by gritty architect Howard Roark in F. I was a little confused by all this, as I thought these books were about saving the world from Social Democrats. I did get a bit stiff....
But the worst thing were the famous documentaries about Rand a couple of years ago: While it was funny that Alan Greenspan was one of her closest, longest disciples, the movies NEVER FOR A MOMENT mentioned Rand's taste for rough sex in her very melodramatic novels.
So what do you say about the sex, Uncle Bill and Objectivist pals?
The Libertarians are followers of that fabulous adventure book writer, Ayn Rand, who never dealt with RACE, RELIGION, or many other longstanding causes of war in her endless "Objectivist' works (which I loved when i was 12). It was, however, in ATLAS SHRUGGED & THE FOUNTAINHEAD that I first discovered rough sex! Dagne Taggart gets fucked unto battering by the steel man Hank Rearden on a train in AS, and Dominque gets raped in her bedroom by gritty architect Howard Roark in F. I was a little confused by all this, as I thought these books were about saving the world from Social Democrats. I did get a bit stiff....
But the worst thing were the famous documentaries about Rand a couple of years ago: While it was funny that Alan Greenspan was one of her closest, longest disciples, the movies NEVER FOR A MOMENT mentioned Rand's taste for rough sex in her very melodramatic novels.
So what do you say about the sex, Uncle Bill and Objectivist pals?
M
miles
Guest
Lavy, dear
Freedom is a word that I see used by libertarians as a tactic. They use a word that everyone in America agrees upon,
..and what a misleading, vile word it is. The problem is that many Americans are willing to give up some freedom and exchange it
for "security". Do you recall the threads on this BB from Canadian citizens ranting about waiting 6 months to see a doctor, or in Britian 18 months for surgery? "Socialized" medicine.
a notion upon which this country was founded. However, one man's freedom is another's oppression.
PLEASE give me an example of that.
Swap the word FREEDOM for SECURITY and you are dead on. There is only one way the government can provide SECURITY to citizens, and that's redistribution of the wealth. Take money from citizens and give it to someone else. Take away their freedom.
So.....
One man's SECURITY is another's oppression.
Freedom is a word that I see used by libertarians as a tactic. They use a word that everyone in America agrees upon,
..and what a misleading, vile word it is. The problem is that many Americans are willing to give up some freedom and exchange it
for "security". Do you recall the threads on this BB from Canadian citizens ranting about waiting 6 months to see a doctor, or in Britian 18 months for surgery? "Socialized" medicine.
a notion upon which this country was founded. However, one man's freedom is another's oppression.
PLEASE give me an example of that.
Swap the word FREEDOM for SECURITY and you are dead on. There is only one way the government can provide SECURITY to citizens, and that's redistribution of the wealth. Take money from citizens and give it to someone else. Take away their freedom.
So.....
One man's SECURITY is another's oppression.
KillerMuffin
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Markov Cain is an idiot. Sheesh. Property taxes keep you from owning property? You know that taxes are the responsibility of each and every citizen? They are part of living in a civilization not an anarchy. Property taxes generally fund local things like schools, police, parks and recreation, the roads in town, and local civil servant pay. The reason behind property tax is that those who live in the community fund the community. And you pay federal and may pay state income tax, but there is no local income tax added in on top of that.
Income tax? You HAVE to pay for the highways you drive on because the government is entirely funded by tax dollars. You HAVE to pay for your government. This is responsibility as a citizen. Taxes aren't what steal your freedom, they fund your government. How free do you think we'd be without police or a military? Who pays for it? Coca cola? Chrysler? Mitsubishi? American taxpayers? Grow a fucking clue.
Hate crime laws? They have very little to do with what you say and everything to do with what you act. The KKK and Louis Farrakhan both spout their racist philosphies to their hearts content, and both of them violate the law when they actually do things like burn crosses in another person's yard or burn down white churches.
The freedom to secure your own property... I'm still not getting the correlation between having a seatbelt and securing your own property. You have the right and responsibility to protect your own property.
Nah, you're an idiot and probably a mask for another regular who has no brains either. You don't know what freedom is and you sure as fuck don't know why possessing freedom means you also possess the responsibilities that go along with it. Maybe you should look into actually completing high school.
Gawd I hate stupid people. And I can say that. I hate stupid people.
Income tax? You HAVE to pay for the highways you drive on because the government is entirely funded by tax dollars. You HAVE to pay for your government. This is responsibility as a citizen. Taxes aren't what steal your freedom, they fund your government. How free do you think we'd be without police or a military? Who pays for it? Coca cola? Chrysler? Mitsubishi? American taxpayers? Grow a fucking clue.
Hate crime laws? They have very little to do with what you say and everything to do with what you act. The KKK and Louis Farrakhan both spout their racist philosphies to their hearts content, and both of them violate the law when they actually do things like burn crosses in another person's yard or burn down white churches.
The freedom to secure your own property... I'm still not getting the correlation between having a seatbelt and securing your own property. You have the right and responsibility to protect your own property.
Nah, you're an idiot and probably a mask for another regular who has no brains either. You don't know what freedom is and you sure as fuck don't know why possessing freedom means you also possess the responsibilities that go along with it. Maybe you should look into actually completing high school.
Gawd I hate stupid people. And I can say that. I hate stupid people.
rambling man
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the industrial revolution and the close of the frontier ended forever libertarianism on a jeffersonian ideal....it meant that people would move about away from family and cluster in cities...families could no longer live together on the farm, they go to cities, work, and then need taking care of when they could no longer do anything...when industry stopped expanding, it meant that many people were in the cities with no economic reason to be there
there needs to be saftey in place and only income taxes can generate enough money
But I do think that Americans are often limited in what they can say and how they can say it sometimes..look at dan rather's problem
hate crime laws raise crimes against one group above crimes committed against another and i do disagree with that
seat belt laws are really stupid...the govt has no business telling me to wear a seat belt...it is your choice if you want to be protected or not...laws that try and save us from ourselves are not a part of a free society
the method by which people have undermined cigarrette smoking and try to undermine the 2nd amendment are disturbing because those methods can be turned agaionst other freedoms later, if a situation presents itself
there needs to be saftey in place and only income taxes can generate enough money
But I do think that Americans are often limited in what they can say and how they can say it sometimes..look at dan rather's problem
hate crime laws raise crimes against one group above crimes committed against another and i do disagree with that
seat belt laws are really stupid...the govt has no business telling me to wear a seat belt...it is your choice if you want to be protected or not...laws that try and save us from ourselves are not a part of a free society
the method by which people have undermined cigarrette smoking and try to undermine the 2nd amendment are disturbing because those methods can be turned agaionst other freedoms later, if a situation presents itself
Markov Cain
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Yes I am an idiot. But if for one moment i thought that I could withdraw from society and just live on my land the way my forefathers did, how long would it be before my land was auctioned off out from under me and the Sherriff came to run me off?
The government exists to maintain the market place and should be able to suffice on sales taxes anf tarriffs.
If you do notwear a seatbelt, In Kansas, it is probable cause for a search of your vehicle. Freedom?
Many ways to pay for my government.
Have my masters in Computer Science with a minor in Math.
Perhaps if I spent my whole life in the military I would be better educated. Thank god you're probably not a native Kansan. hope people don't think you're the norm.
What about gas taxes?
What about cigarette taxes which are supposed to relieve the burden of smokers health costs even though they die earlier and actually save the government money?
many type of idiots in this world KM.
At least I have the resourses to survive the inane ideas of socialists like yourself.
For a short while anyway.
Man, are we ever getting back to the good old days of the board. Almost like at election time.
Now I'mtruly with my element. Down in the slime and the ooze slugging it out for no noble purpose at all. Just piglets trying to get at a nipple!
I'm fucked up?
Honey you take the cake!
The government exists to maintain the market place and should be able to suffice on sales taxes anf tarriffs.
If you do notwear a seatbelt, In Kansas, it is probable cause for a search of your vehicle. Freedom?
Many ways to pay for my government.
Have my masters in Computer Science with a minor in Math.
Perhaps if I spent my whole life in the military I would be better educated. Thank god you're probably not a native Kansan. hope people don't think you're the norm.
What about gas taxes?
What about cigarette taxes which are supposed to relieve the burden of smokers health costs even though they die earlier and actually save the government money?
many type of idiots in this world KM.
At least I have the resourses to survive the inane ideas of socialists like yourself.
For a short while anyway.
Man, are we ever getting back to the good old days of the board. Almost like at election time.
Now I'mtruly with my element. Down in the slime and the ooze slugging it out for no noble purpose at all. Just piglets trying to get at a nipple!
I'm fucked up?
Honey you take the cake!
M
miles
Guest
Laveeey
We do not have the liberty/freedom to shout fire in a crowded theatre.
That's total bullshit. What if the theater is on fire?
Seriously, folks.
I've never read Ayn Rand. I don't know who Hobbes is, and I'm sure not going to respond to what you said Uncle Bill said.
Of course freedom is not absolute. No one has the freedom to infringe on another person's rights. It's intellectually dishonest to say Libertarians think they have the freedom to yell fire....
John Locke also said "For what property have I in that which another may by right take when he pleases to himself?"
We do not have the liberty/freedom to shout fire in a crowded theatre.
That's total bullshit. What if the theater is on fire?
Seriously, folks.
I've never read Ayn Rand. I don't know who Hobbes is, and I'm sure not going to respond to what you said Uncle Bill said.
Of course freedom is not absolute. No one has the freedom to infringe on another person's rights. It's intellectually dishonest to say Libertarians think they have the freedom to yell fire....
John Locke also said "For what property have I in that which another may by right take when he pleases to himself?"
Markov Cain
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You sure are uniformed about Kansas law.
YOU MUST BE A LIAR!
YOU MUST BE A LIAR!
Markov Cain
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No. You are truthfull. I like you.
I like KM too!
I like KM too!
M
miles
Guest
Ruh - Ro.
Somebody stepped in the doo-doo.
Somebody stepped in the doo-doo.
M
miles
Guest
Muffin
Taxes aren't what steal your freedom, they fund your government. How free do you think we'd be without police or a military?
Some Libertarians believe ALL taxes should be abolished, which I think is extreme. The police an military have to be funded, as well as the roads, etc.
The only fair tax is a consumption tax, or national sales tax. The system we have now punishes people who reap financial rewards from their own hard work. Is it a good thing the government taxes self-employed people at a higher rate? Is it moral for the government to claim an inheritance tax - tax a dead person?
I'm not sure of the exact figure, but I'll bet we pay at least 40% of our earnings for taxes. In addition to income tax, there are hidden taxes in everything we buy. Take a long look at your next telephone bill - how much of it is tax by a different name? Gasoline tax. Taxes on alchohol, tobacco. License plates. Smog stickers. Gas guzzler taxes on cars. We can see those. But we can't see the taxes the government levies upon corporations. The companies don't pay taxes - we do! They pass them along to us as a cost of doing business.
..and by the way, the thought of property taxes is repulsive. I don't own the land around my house. I'm renting it from the government.
Taxes aren't what steal your freedom, they fund your government. How free do you think we'd be without police or a military?
Some Libertarians believe ALL taxes should be abolished, which I think is extreme. The police an military have to be funded, as well as the roads, etc.
The only fair tax is a consumption tax, or national sales tax. The system we have now punishes people who reap financial rewards from their own hard work. Is it a good thing the government taxes self-employed people at a higher rate? Is it moral for the government to claim an inheritance tax - tax a dead person?
I'm not sure of the exact figure, but I'll bet we pay at least 40% of our earnings for taxes. In addition to income tax, there are hidden taxes in everything we buy. Take a long look at your next telephone bill - how much of it is tax by a different name? Gasoline tax. Taxes on alchohol, tobacco. License plates. Smog stickers. Gas guzzler taxes on cars. We can see those. But we can't see the taxes the government levies upon corporations. The companies don't pay taxes - we do! They pass them along to us as a cost of doing business.
..and by the way, the thought of property taxes is repulsive. I don't own the land around my house. I'm renting it from the government.
Markov Cain
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Time for a goddamned ol' fashioned tea party!
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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hate crime
I believe in hate crime laws because they concern ACTIVITIES, not free speech. Many societies do not revere free speech as ours does. They don't need hate crime laws. But if, as I believe, anyone can stand up and say that I and my kind can be killed & burned, I think it's fair that people stupid enough to actually try simply because I am of a specific type will pay a fair price for it.
Of course, very few people say that about me and my kind because I was raised a white, christian, male American. But just as you geezers can go on and on and on about those uppity whatevers, hate crime law can help protect those whatevers from your most gullible readers. Fair enough.
As for absolute freedom: Don't I have the freedom to make love to a 10 year old? Why not? What if he or she says they want me to? Their parents wouldn't have any rights under Uncle Bill's libertarian paradise, would they? If they did, who would decide the cut off point? Suppose Uncle Bill wanted his daughter to stay a virgin til she was 30? Who decides at what age she can make up her own mind? Sure, accepting limitations is a slippery slope. All human endeavor is compromised, isn't it? So sad....
I believe in hate crime laws because they concern ACTIVITIES, not free speech. Many societies do not revere free speech as ours does. They don't need hate crime laws. But if, as I believe, anyone can stand up and say that I and my kind can be killed & burned, I think it's fair that people stupid enough to actually try simply because I am of a specific type will pay a fair price for it.
Of course, very few people say that about me and my kind because I was raised a white, christian, male American. But just as you geezers can go on and on and on about those uppity whatevers, hate crime law can help protect those whatevers from your most gullible readers. Fair enough.
As for absolute freedom: Don't I have the freedom to make love to a 10 year old? Why not? What if he or she says they want me to? Their parents wouldn't have any rights under Uncle Bill's libertarian paradise, would they? If they did, who would decide the cut off point? Suppose Uncle Bill wanted his daughter to stay a virgin til she was 30? Who decides at what age she can make up her own mind? Sure, accepting limitations is a slippery slope. All human endeavor is compromised, isn't it? So sad....
Markov Cain
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Hate crimes are wrong because of thier corallary, love crimes.
Yes, you read me right. Hate and Love are the same emotion, just varying degrees of it. It Like/Dislike something. So when you characterize something as a hate cirme, then you get the luxury of executing someone twice, but you also leave open the door for a love crime, as when a mother drowns five children and everyone rushes to defend her, because after all, she DID love her children.
No, a crime must be a crime and it must be viewed without emotion. Someone was killed. How do you handle that as a society?
Yes, you read me right. Hate and Love are the same emotion, just varying degrees of it. It Like/Dislike something. So when you characterize something as a hate cirme, then you get the luxury of executing someone twice, but you also leave open the door for a love crime, as when a mother drowns five children and everyone rushes to defend her, because after all, she DID love her children.
No, a crime must be a crime and it must be viewed without emotion. Someone was killed. How do you handle that as a society?
