Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

[cellis]

It seems to me there has been little said here about the difference between manipultion and control and where submission fits in to all of that.

It seems to me that there has been a lot of manipulation going on here... bear in mind I am not pointing fingers at anyone... just making an observation...

Manipulation in my book is a form of control... just not a good form. I cringe when I see someone trying to make or making someone else bend to their will when they don't want to or by guilt. How healthy is this?

I don't want Himself to allow me to manipulate Him or any part of our relationship... I think that is bad... He is no longer in control and I need Him to be in control. Control is not a bad thing to my way of thinking, at least not in a D/s relationship. I cannot imagine certain Dom/mes around here allowing their subs to manipulate them for one minute...

My submission to Himself is predicated on the premise that He will be in control of what transpires between us. How could I possible respect Him if He allowed me to manipulate Him or our relationship? How could I possibly submit to someone who has no control over all of this?

It just seems to me that there are rules and structure in a D/s relationship for this very reason... I need the structure and the rules to feel safe. I need to know that Himself will be in control.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Cellis your post fits in wonderfully with my bump on direction. when a subs balks at a Dom/me's direction, after a certain point that headstrongness become defiance. Defiance is a manipulative tool to get an explosive reaction to whatever situation is under dispute. The sub knows that the dominant has said no, but instead of submitting to his/her will, he/she continues the manipulation in the guise of "asking questions."

Sometimes giving in to your Dominant's will is the best show of submission and/or love you can give.

Ebony

It seems to me there has been little said here about the difference between manipultion and control and where submission fits in to all of that.

It seems to me that there has been a lot of manipulation going on here... bear in mind I am not pointing fingers at anyone... just making an observation...

Manipulation in my book is a form of control... just not a good form. I cringe when I see someone trying to make or making someone else bend to their will when they don't want to or by guilt. How healthy is this?

I don't want Himself to allow me to manipulate Him or any part of our relationship... I think that is bad... He is no longer in control and I need Him to be in control. Control is not a bad thing to my way of thinking, at least not in a D/s relationship. I cannot imagine certain Dom/mes around here allowing their subs to manipulate them for one minute...

My submission to Himself is predicated on the premise that He will be in control of what transpires between us. How could I possible respect Him if He allowed me to manipulate Him or our relationship? How could I possibly submit to someone who has no control over all of this?

It just seems to me that there are rules and structure in a D/s relationship for this very reason... I need the structure and the rules to feel safe. I need to know that Himself will be in control.

 

[Desdemona]

Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

<snip>
Sometimes giving in to your Dominant's will is the best show of submission and/or love you can give.

This is where the rubber meets the road. This type of submission is hard beyond description and can be painful (at least it is for me. I have a pretty strong will and can be stubborn). But, if you are a sub, this difficult submission is part of the bargain at times. It ain't all about orgasms and bondage; that much is certain.

 

[cellis]

Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Cellis your post fits in wonderfully with my bump on direction. when a subs balks at a Dom/me's direction, after a certain point that headstrongness become defiance. Defiance is a manipulative tool to get an explosive reaction to whatever situation is under dispute. The sub knows that the dominant has said no, but instead of submitting to his/her will, he/she continues the manipulation in the guise of "asking questions."

Sometimes giving in to your Dominant's will is the best show of submission and/or love you can give.

Ebony

I had not considered defiance in all of this, because I would not willing defy Himself... It is not something that I have within me to do. I don't need to get that kind of reaction from Him and we don't have that kind of relationship. But I can see how that works.

Then again I think there are some who only play at submitting and don't have the foggiest idea of what it means to truly give yourself over to another person.

By the same token there are those who rule by manipulation and not control.

 

[Lancecastor]

Sometimes the only difference between manipulation and romantic pursuit is the end result.

That being said, non-consensual manipulation can be abuse or it can be simple persuasion.

It depends largely on the minds and feelings of the participants as well as the subject matter.

But it is also safe to say that any truly healthy and actualized relationship will only involve manipulation of another to achieve a happy, informed result for both.

Happy, Non Abusive Manipulation Example:
If I fool you into meeting me at a hotel bar for a drink because I have a suite prepared as our weekend love dungeon, that's happy manipulation..."Surprise honey!"

It's only abusive manipulation if you don't want to get fucked silly for the weekend and hate me and I won't let you leave our relationship, for example....i.e. if there is no reasonable expectation of consent, it is abusive.

Abusive Manipulation is something everyone needs to watch for in any relationship of any kind.

I google'd "manipulation abuse bdsm" before writing this post and found several BDSM resources dealing with Subs....and Dom(me)s...being abused by manipulative partners.

As with all things, the door swings both ways.

All those threads I got pounced on for months ago regarding Direct & Indirect Aggression, Passive Aggressiveness versus Direct Aggressiveness, how Subs do bad things too....were to illustrate this same point: people is people; we all deserve respect. we all have needs. we all have sore spots, soft spots.

Making these things an exclusively Dom(me) blamefest solves nothing. It only serves to divide.

JMHO



Cheers;

Lance

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

I, for one...

have put up with all the manipulation that I intend to put up with.



Manipulation is a passive-aggressive approach to control and it is extremely unhealthy for any relationship.

This leads to resentment on the part of the person who is being manipulated.

When I feel that someone is attempting to manipulate me, I tell them in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is bullshit and that I will not play into it.

If you have a problem with me or my behavior, let's discuss it and I will do the same for you.

BTW- I have had to do this with wives, girlfriends, and most recently with my mother.

-Vv

 

[Desdemona]

Abusive Manipulation is something everyone needs to watch for in any relationship of any kind.

I google'd "manipulation abuse bdsm" before writing this post and found several BDSM resources dealing with Subs....and Dom(me)s...being abused by manipulative partners.

As with all things, the door swings both ways.

Damn, I find myself agreeing with you again. It is funny how we spend so much time talking about issues in D/s relationships that are actually issues in any relationship. I do however, think that the nature of power exchange does tend to amplify or exaggerate some of these issues.

 

[cellis]

Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

This is where the rubber meets the road. This type of submission is hard beyond description and can be painful (at least it is for me. I have a pretty strong will and can be stubborn). But, if you are a sub, this difficult submission is part of the bargain at times. It ain't all about orgasms and bondage; that much is certain.

Absolutely... to give that part of yourself over to the One... that is the hardest and yet the best of it all.

There was a time once when Himself had taken some photos of me and because I am large and not happy with my body image, I was not happy with them. He sent three of the photos back to me and told me to make AV's out of them to use here and told me which one to use first.

I admit I was horrified. I did not want to do what He told me to do. But I did it... and I cringed everytime I looked at the av. But I did not turn it off.

He asked me if I had done as He asked and I told Him yes, but that I was not happy with it. He then told me that He was proud of me and my body and wanted others to see what was His. Because I was not able to see that for myself, I would never have understood what His motive was. Instead I did as he required. Now today... many months later... I understand.

 

[cellis]

Re: I, for one...

have put up with all the manipulation that I intend to put up with.



Manipulation is a passive-aggressive approach to control and it is extremely unhealthy for any relationship.

This leads to resentment on the part of the person who is being manipulated.

When I feel that someone is attempting to manipulate me, I tell them in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is bullshit and that I will not play into it.

If you have a problem with me or my behavior, let's discuss it and I will do the same for you.

BTW- I have had to do this with wives, girlfriends, and most recently with my mother.

-Vv

In any relationship I believe there is a power play involved... and most especially those with our parents. In fact VV, I just had a conversation with my mother this morning where she accused me of not doing something that I said I had done... It was a manipulation on her part and I knew and called her on it.

I am learning to do this in other relationships as well.

 

[Lancecastor]

.

.

 

[NemoAlia]

One kind of manipulation that I find is entirely too common is the establishment of ultimatums. In BDSM relationships, this seems to manifest itself in things like, "You must either act this way or I will not consider you a true ____," and, "Either do this or end our association." Attempting to force someone into believing that there are only two choices -- and one of them sucks -- is a kind of manipulation of which I hope I'm never guilty.

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

Re: Re: I, for one...

In any relationship I believe there is a power play involved... and most especially those with our parents. In fact VV, I just had a conversation with my mother this morning where she accused me of not doing something that I said I had done... It was a manipulation on her part and I knew and called her on it.

I am learning to do this in other relationships as well.

Good on you Cellis!


It took me one failed marriage and many hours of therapy to understand where and why I am bent and how to live a happy, healthy life in spite of it. One of those lessons was in learning how to draw boundaries and defend them.


Our parents know how to push our buttons because they installed them.

-Vv

 

[Vulpesvulpes]

One kind of manipulation that I find is entirely too common is the establishment of ultimatums. In BDSM relationships, this seems to manifest itself in things like, "You must either act this way or I will not consider you a true ____," and, "Either do this or end our association." Attempting to force someone into believing that there are only two choices -- and one of them sucks -- is a kind of manipulation of which I hope I'm never guilty.

Ditto

 

[cellis]

One kind of manipulation that I find is entirely too common is the establishment of ultimatums. In BDSM relationships, this seems to manifest itself in things like, "You must either act this way or I will not consider you a true ____," and, "Either do this or end our association." Attempting to force someone into believing that there are only two choices -- and one of them sucks -- is a kind of manipulation of which I hope I'm never guilty.

Oh Nemo

Thank you for making this very salient point. There is way too much of that cyber/chat room stuff around.

I would love it if people would understand that we are all people and we have different needs and react differently in different situations.

While there are D/s rules... they only apply to the relationship you are in.

 

[zipman]

Main Entry: ma.nip.u.late
Pronunciation: m&-'ni-py&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: back-formation from manipulation, from French, from manipuler to handle an apparatus in chemistry, ultimately from Latin manipulus
Date: 1831
Inflected Form(s): -lat.ed; -lat.ing
1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose :

Please note, this has been cut and pasted from an online dictionary and the use of the word artful in this post is by no means reflective of any judgement on any poster with the same name.

According to the dictionary, there is a definite negative connotation to the term manipulation. If there is a selfishness inherent in manipulation, was the example that cellis used about the pictures manipulation? Well, Himself may have received some benfit from her healthier self-image, but was it as great as her benefit in feeling good about herself? If he explained his reasons, it would merely be control and not manipulation.

I think there are varying degrees of manipulation, and that all of life is not so black and white. I think we all do it on some level and some of us are striclty motivated by selfishness while others have more benevolent reasons for manipulating someone.

I do think that manipulation should not be involved with D/s, neither Dom/me nor sub should use it as it can interfere with control and submission.

 

[UCE]

I do however, think that the nature of power exchange does tend to amplify or exaggerate some of these issues.

That's the understatement of the year!

The way to avoid manipulators on either end of the power exhange is to know your partner extremely well before you give him or her information that would put you at risk. Don't trust your gut feeling that "of course s/he'll turn out nice and a fair dealer"--everybody _always_ feels that in the blush of a new relationship, and many times, especially if you've met this person online, it turns out not to be true.

Here's what I do: before I trust someone online even as just a good friend that I can entrust confidences to, I wait and wait and wait some more until I get the opportunity to see how this person responds to having their wishes thwarted. What I want to see is what they do when they are disappointed or angry or hurt at something, preferably something _someone else besides me_ has done to them. Their behavior in this sort of situation tells me what I need to know about how they'll treat me, if trouble arises between us. A lot of people online will turn into real pricks when they find themselves in a stressful situation and will lash out at whomever they feel is responsible for their current trouble. If they use blackmail, if they out their former friend, if they spread lies and rumors about that person, you had better understand that this is exactly how they will treat you, if you displease them. Because misunderstandings and the unhappiness these breed arise between even the best-intentioned people, it will only be a matter of time before your "friend" will be regarding you with hurt, confusion, or hostility. Before you are the hapless object of these emotions, it's best to see first how the other person acts in response to them. Some people are grown up and will act fairly and graciously. Most will not. Keep that in mind, and make sure that you have good factual information on this person's behaviors before you trust them completely. Doing this kind of takes some of the romance out of things, because you're introducing a dash of cold, logical reality. That's why a lot of people do not do sensible things like this when meeting others online. But not doing it could lead to heartbreak, public exposure of your sexuality, the loss of your job, the loss of your kids, perhaps even jailtime. You decide which is worse.

Of course, people vary in their ability to "read" others online and determine their motivations from the little bits of self-censored data you get from a correspondent. The above advice is meant for folks who are not good at this and who, therefore, keep getting hurt over and over again because their instincts about others prove to be wrong. If you have the patience for it, however, you can substitute hard facts for vague instincts.

Unda

 

[cellis]

<snip>

I think there are varying degrees of manipulation, and that all of life is not so black and white. I think we all do it on some level and some of us are striclty motivated by selfishness while others have more benevolent reasons for manipulating someone.

I do think that manipulation should not be involved with D/s, neither Dom/me nor sub should use it as it can interfere with control and submission.

I think this was point that I was trying to make... that you cannot confuse D/s with manipulation.

You are right Zip... there are varying degrees... and all of life is not so black and white...

 

[NemoAlia]

Thanks, cellis! It's nice to know I'm not alone.

Plus, I hadn't even considered the possibility that my idea of manipulation would be particularly relevant to online experiences. I was speaking only from real-life experience. However, I can totally see the connection with online stuff -- this sort of manipulation seems to happen all the time on internet sites!

 

[zipman]

I think this was point that I was trying to make... that you cannot confuse D/s with manipulation.

You are right Zip... there are varying degrees... and all of life is not so black and white...

I had a discussion with my gf/sub about a desire that I had that she was not comfortable with. It was a good discussion that yielded insight into why she was hesitant to do this. Since that time we have had more discussions about it, why I want to do it, etc. The result is that she is becoming more and more interested in trying it.

I could have probably manipulated her into doing it rather easily as she is so intent on pleasing me. But it will be much better when she wants to do it as much as I do. Manipulation is a bad way to get what you want. When she submits, it is out of love, trust, desire an a whole lot of other things as well. In my opinion, manipulating her would be a betrayal of the trust that she has placed in me.

What I have done is strengthen our d/s relationship with truth, honesty and communnication rather than weaken it with manipulation.

 

[Ebonyfire]

What I have done is strengthen our d/s relationship with truth, honesty and communnication rather than weaken it with manipulation.

Exactly Zip. Manipulation is at best temporary and breeds distrust and more manipulation. It is just plain negative.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

One kind of manipulation that I find is entirely too common is the establishment of ultimatums. In BDSM relationships, this seems to manifest itself in things like, "You must either act this way or I will not consider you a true ____," and, "Either do this or end our association." Attempting to force someone into believing that there are only two choices -- and one of them sucks -- is a kind of manipulation of which I hope I'm never guilty.

I think that is why I cringe whenever anyone talks about "true" subs or "true" Dom/mes.

What I find is that what they really mean is that if you do my meet criteria for "truth" you must be "false."

That is a setup.

Eb

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Absolutely... to give that part of yourself over to the One... that is the hardest and yet the best of it all.

There was a time once when Himself had taken some photos of me and because I am large and not happy with my body image, I was not happy with them. He sent three of the photos back to me and told me to make AV's out of them to use here and told me which one to use first.

I admit I was horrified. I did not want to do what He told me to do. But I did it... and I cringed everytime I looked at the av. But I did not turn it off.

He asked me if I had done as He asked and I told Him yes, but that I was not happy with it. He then told me that He was proud of me and my body and wanted others to see what was His. Because I was not able to see that for myself, I would never have understood what His motive was. Instead I did as he required. Now today... many months later... I understand.

________________________

Thank you for your thread and this post Cellis .. for some of *us* indeed it Does take many many MONTHS LATER.. to *get it* and i AM 1 OF THOSE..unfortunately I have put my Master through Hell lately ,both giving and taking away my submission ,like a damn yo-yo.
This is NOT a GAME to me I Quite ASSURE you of that ,this also involves my 10-yr-old lil boy having a happy life also cause His Mom is HAPPY so I take it VERY seriously indeed..
I have been so confused lately because my heart has told me to just submit over & over again ,however,my MIND (head) has said no Dream ,you really DONT DESERVE this man ,you DONT deserve ,REAL LOVE...
Master and I were very very close to ending our relationship He was Hurt AND me also,) ,esp given the FACT that He felt the NEED to post it PUBLICLY hurt me Very DEEP..He still has NOT apologized for that and I do NOT expect He will because He felt it was right and necessary ,so as His Submissive ,I accept that..Does it STILL hurt? Hell yes!! But I am learning that My hurts ,myWants and Needs come only AFTER His..AFTER being the key word here.. I know my mind is telling me NOT to submit sometimes cause like Des,I have a VERY STRONG will.. also I was physically abused for 3 years ,beat to a pulp ,even when pregnant.I GOT USED to that ,as sick as it may sound ,Artful has given me no signs of Being "abusive at all ,some part of me "misses' that and continues the search for "what's been COMFORTABLE' TO ME ,TRYING TO GET hIM(MaNIPULATE) emotions that He just isnt feeling..Artful DOESNT Hate me, HE 's in LOVE with me,for REAL,My mind just hasnt ACCEPTED that yet,but I am working on it and I have re-established our D/s relationship by putting EVERYTHING in Master's very Capable guiding hands(submitting),I need to be weak awhile,I NEED His strength,we have a long bumpy road ahead of us ,but because we both know our feelings are SINCERE I truly feel WE can SURVIVE this LDR..it is hard ,hard as hell on ME not having Him to Touch everyday ,what I need to keep in my mind is what He said last night to me..no1)that there will NEVER be another woman for HIM.. AND NO 2)When I am in pain ,SO IS HE...I dont even like thinking about that but I know it's the TRUTH.. I can only try harder than ever to please Him and hope that the future we wish to have together in Arkansas comes asap...and for the record ,I DO know how 'LUCKY' I am but then again ... my Master is *UNIQUE*

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

________________________

Thank you for your thread and this post Cellis .. for some of *us* indeed it Does take many many MONTHS LATER.. to *get it* and i AM 1 OF THOSE..unfortunately I have put my Master through Hell lately ,both giving and taking away my submission ,like a damn yo-yo.
This is NOT a GAME to me I Quite ASSURE you of that ,this also involves my 10-yr-old lil boy having a happy life also cause His Mom is HAPPY so I take it VERY seriously indeed..
I have been so confused lately because my hewart has told me to just submit over & over again ,howevermy MIND (head) has said no Dream ,you really DONT DESERVE this man ,you DONT deserve ,REAL LOVE...
Master and I were very very close to ending our relationship ,esp given the FACT that He felt the NEED to post it PUBLICLY hurt me Very DEEP..He still has NOT apologized for that and I do NOT exprct He will because He felt it was right and necessary ,so as His Submissive ,I accept that..Does it STILL hurt? Hell yes!! But I am learning that My hurts ,myWants and Needs come only AFTER His..AFTER being the key word here.. I know my mind is telling me NOT to submit sometimes cause like Des,I have a VERY STRONG will.. also I was physically abused for 3 years ,beat to a pulp ,even when pregnant.I GOT USED to that ,as sick as it may sound ,Artful has given me no signs of Being "abusive at all ,some part of me "misses' that and continues the search for "what's been COMFORTABLE' TO ME ,TRYING TO GET hIM(MaNIPULATE) emotions that He just isnt feeling..Artful DOESNT Hate me, HE 's in LOVE with me,for REAL,My mind just hasnt ACCEPTED that yet,but I am working on it and I have re-established our D/s relationship by putting EVERYTHING in Master's very Capable guiding hands(submitting),I need to be weak awhile,I NEED His strength,we have a long bumpy road ahead of us ,but because we both know our feelings are SINCERE I truly feel WE can SURVIVE this LDR..it is hard ,hard as hell on ME not having Him to Touch everyday ,what I need to keep in my mind is what He said last night to me..no1)that there will NEVER be another woman for HIM.. AND NO 2)When I am in pain ,SO IS HE...I dont even like thinking about that but I know it's the TRUTH.. I can only try harder than ever to please Him and hope that the future we wish to have together in Arkansas comes asap...and for the record ,I DO know how 'LUCKY' I am but then again ... my Master is *UNIQUE*

Cut the crap Dream, I for one have had enough.

Eb

 

[Ghost's amaris]

________________________

Thank you for your thread and this post Cellis .. for some of *us* indeed it Does take many many MONTHS LATER.. to *get it* and i AM 1 OF THOSE..unfortunately I have put my Master through Hell lately ,both giving and taking away my submission ,like a damn yo-yo.
This is NOT a GAME to me I Quite ASSURE you of that ,this also involves my 10-yr-old lil boy having a happy life also cause His Mom is HAPPY so I take it VERY seriously indeed..
I have been so confused lately because my heart has told me to just submit over & over again ,however,my MIND (head) has said no Dream ,you really DONT DESERVE this man ,you DONT deserve ,REAL LOVE...
Master and I were very very close to ending our relationship He was Hurt AND me also,) ,esp given the FACT that He felt the NEED to post it PUBLICLY hurt me Very DEEP..He still has NOT apologized for that and I do NOT expect He will because He felt it was right and necessary ,so as His Submissive ,I accept that..Does it STILL hurt? Hell yes!! But I am learning that My hurts ,myWants and Needs come only AFTER His..AFTER being the key word here.. I know my mind is telling me NOT to submit sometimes cause like Des,I have a VERY STRONG will.. also I was physically abused for 3 years ,beat to a pulp ,even when pregnant.I GOT USED to that ,as sick as it may sound ,Artful has given me no signs of Being "abusive at all ,some part of me "misses' that and continues the search for "what's been COMFORTABLE' TO ME ,TRYING TO GET hIM(MaNIPULATE) emotions that He just isnt feeling..Artful DOESNT Hate me, HE 's in LOVE with me,for REAL,My mind just hasnt ACCEPTED that yet,but I am working on it and I have re-established our D/s relationship by putting EVERYTHING in Master's very Capable guiding hands(submitting),I need to be weak awhile,I NEED His strength,we have a long bumpy road ahead of us ,but because we both know our feelings are SINCERE I truly feel WE can SURVIVE this LDR..it is hard ,hard as hell on ME not having Him to Touch everyday ,what I need to keep in my mind is what He said last night to me..no1)that there will NEVER be another woman for HIM.. AND NO 2)When I am in pain ,SO IS HE...I dont even like thinking about that but I know it's the TRUTH.. I can only try harder than ever to please Him and hope that the future we wish to have together in Arkansas comes asap...and for the record ,I DO know how 'LUCKY' I am but then again ... my Master is *UNIQUE*

Dream,

I am glad to hear you and Artful are back together and I think the post says alot about your growth even in the little time we have been talking.

Well enough said here.

I wish you both well.

Ghost's amaris

 

[zipman]

What does Manipulation look like?

I think that manipulation can take many forms, but two of the most obvious forms for me are the following:

1) When someone tries to evoke feelings of pity from their SO due to past experiences in their life. I dated a woman once who had an abusive ex-husband. I do not doubt that he beat her terribly. She used this as a tool to get me to repeatedly give her "another chance" which I did because I felt badly for her. After a while, I learned that she was using my emotions against me. She mistook my kindness as weakness and tried to manipulate me into forgiving her for things that had nothing to do with her past abuse. Note: this was not a BDSM relationship

2) When someone's repeatedly professes to feel one way yet does does the exact opposite. When someone constantly says the same thing over and over again, and does not change their behavior it sends a strong signal to me that they are trying to manipulate me. I have had this experience on more than one occasion and it stinks of manipulation. An example is a woman I once dated kept telling me how much she loved me, and yet, did nothing to ever show me that she truly felt that way. She often chose to do things with other people on the weekends and yet, would almost cry about how much she missed me on Monday. She was attempting to manipulate me into believing that I held an important place in her heart, and yet her actions demonstrated the opposite. After a while, the words you keep hearing become meaningless. I remember having conversation after conversation with her and she would keep saying "now I get it," but she didn't.

Now my bullshit meter picks up on manipulation very quickly, and I have very little respect for those who practice it.